How come the NSX isn't lighter?

[MaxGeek]

I've never seen it mentioned the NSX is lighter than 3000lbs? Even the 1991 NSX is listed at 3010lbs (carpoint.com), I presume that's the lightest version. A C5Z06 is 3118lbs and a Coupe is around 3150lbs range.

From what I've found the NA1 NSX coupe is listed at 2950-2985lbs (Wikipedia, supercars.net, exoticcarsite.com, fast-autos.net). Either way its about 3000lbs.

The NSX is also the everyday supercar so it has a lot of "luxury" items and sound proofing in the cabin that weighs it down. Its clear that it could be lighter if sacrifices were made as the NA1 NSX-R was about ~2720lbs and the NA2 NSX-R was ~2800lbs.

Another thing about the Corvette is it uses run flat tires which eliminates the spare which could save a few extra pounds as well.

 

[Tanto2]

Seriously? So Honda builds cars NOT to last?

Oh, boy I didn't mean to start something here. But yes it's my opinion that Honda was one of the mfgr's that COINED the term planned obsolescence, at least in my circle. Take the 80's civics, the safety factors are like motorcycles (imagine that). Take an Integra for instance: by 120k you will have replaced the alternator, the radiator, water pump, ignition switch, ball joints, clutch. syncros probably, exhaust, door locks, starter and probably have oil on at least one plug. And the rust, if you leave them out it's just terrible! suspenstion components and the frame itself! I just compare that to say a mid 60's chevy nova with the iron duke L4 which will have maybe 25
5 of these issues. Why don't mid 90's camrys have the wheel well rust of the accords? A slip up? Don't think so. In fairness to Honda, as I LOVE honda's, I don't think they are ashamed of this, they don't see longevity past 100k as a highly desired attribute. They are probably very proud of how they weigh cost input to probably average life. The only reason I brought it up initially is that most all folks think the NSX is in this same league, and it's WAY upscale design wise. JUST MY OPINION!

 

[Osiris_x11]

were you in a demolition derby or Cannonball run?

Take an Integra for instance: by 120k you will have replaced the alternator, the radiator, water pump, ignition switch, ball joints, clutch. syncros probably, exhaust, door locks, starter and probably have oil on at least one plug. And the rust, if you leave them out it's just terrible! suspenstion components and the frame itself!

Not that I'm a Honda/Acura fan-boy or drunk on their Koolaid, but all that's just not true.

I've had (2) Integra's from new (GS & GS-R, respectively), both went to 100k+ miles w/o any of the aforementioned issues. These were WPenn vehicles (ie. 'rust-belt' U.S.A.), w/ light track/road-course/Auto-X events (including the annual Beaver Run... ).

Other than manufacturer specified maint'/service & wear-&-tear/consumable items, no issues at all whatsoever. . .

(higher than avg' brake-pad/rotor changes, but to be expected in the hills/mtn's of WPenn)

Why don't mid 90's camrys have the wheel well rust of the accords? A slip up? Don't think so. In fairness to Honda, as I LOVE honda's, I don't think they are ashamed of this, they don't see longevity past 100k as a highly desired attribute. They are probably very proud of how they weigh cost input to probably average life. The only reason I brought it up initially is that most all folks think the NSX is in this same league, and it's WAY upscale design wise.

Hmmm... again, not quite so! I've had (3) Accords in the past ('90, '92, '93), and one currently as we speak ('08). The aforementioned (3) were also in WPenn, bought as-new & went well-over 100k miles w/o a hitch, mechanically/cosmetically. And, being somewhat aloof/ignorant/lazy, a lot of the manufacturer recommended scheduled maint'/service was deferred. Each went to nearly 200K miles, personally driven, before being sold at lucrative prices (relative to age/mileage) to discerning/enthusiastic buyers. And when I mean sold, I mean sold in minutes w/ individuals willing to offer more than the asking respective prices.

(though, window-regulators were replaced more than once on some of them)

I'm not sure wtf you do to your cars, but I've added you to my do-not-buy-a-car-from list...

JUST MY OPINION!

Put this disclaimer in the first line of your post, next time!

 

[sahtt]

Oh, boy I didn't mean to start something here. But yes it's my opinion that Honda was one of the mfgr's that COINED the term planned obsolescence, at least in my circle. Take the 80's civics, the safety factors are like motorcycles (imagine that). Take an Integra for instance: by 120k you will have replaced the alternator, the radiator, water pump, ignition switch, ball joints, clutch. syncros probably, exhaust, door locks, starter and probably have oil on at least one plug. And the rust, if you leave them out it's just terrible! suspenstion components and the frame itself! I just compare that to say a mid 60's chevy nova with the iron duke L4 which will have maybe 25
5 of these issues. Why don't mid 90's camrys have the wheel well rust of the accords? A slip up? Don't think so. In fairness to Honda, as I LOVE honda's, I don't think they are ashamed of this, they don't see longevity past 100k as a highly desired attribute. They are probably very proud of how they weigh cost input to probably average life. The only reason I brought it up initially is that most all folks think the NSX is in this same league, and it's WAY upscale design wise. JUST MY OPINION!

You don't see longevity past 100k as a highly desired attribute to Honda? What colors are the unicorns in fantasy land? Their economical cars of 20+ years ago had issues (like you said rust, etc.), but everything since then has been as reliable or moreso then any other maker with Lexus as an equal (reliable but not necessarily cheap).

You think early 90's domestics or german cars are better off then a same year accord or camry? I've had a little of everything (not much German though, and for good reason) and the only people that typically still think the way you do usually reside in the farms of Indiana or factories in Detroit. Just my opinion of course.

Circumstancial evidence, but my 94 GSR reached 140k miles with nothing more then 1 distributor besides regular (not even really) maintenance. No rust either, althought the paint wasn't very impressive.

 

[Tanto2]

Re: were you in a demolition derby or Cannonball run?

Not that I'm a Honda/Acura fan-boy or drunk on their Koolaid, but all that's just not true.

I've had (2) Integra's from new (GS & GS-R, respectively), both went to 100k+ miles w/o any of the aforementioned issues. These were WPenn vehicles (ie. 'rust-belt' U.S.A.), w/ light track/road-course/Auto-X events (including the annual Beaver Run... ).

Other than manufacturer specified maint'/service & wear-&-tear/consumable items, no issues at all whatsoever. . .

(higher than avg' brake-pad/rotor changes, but to be expected in the hills/mtn's of WPenn)

Hmmm... again, not quite so! I've had (3) Accords in the past ('90, '92, '93), and one currently as we speak ('08). The aforementioned (3) were also in WPenn, bought as-new & went well-over 100k miles w/o a hitch, mechanically/cosmetically. And, being somewhat aloof/ignorant/lazy, a lot of the manufacturer recommended scheduled maint'/service was deferred. Each went to nearly 200K miles, personally driven, before being sold at lucrative prices (relative to age/mileage) to discerning/enthusiastic buyers. And when I mean sold, I mean sold in minutes w/ individuals willing to offer more than the asking respective prices.

(though, window-regulators were replaced more than once on some of them)

I'm not sure wtf you do to your cars, but I've added you to my do-not-buy-a-car-from list...
Put this disclaimer in the first line of your post, next time!

Caution - don't read unless you want my opinion! You asked me to elaborate. As a 57 year old pro mechanic/designer/engineer/kart-bike racer/rod builder my opinions are not based on solely on antedotal experience. Sounds like your background may be even better than mine as to own all those cars you mentioned, you must drive three or four at once. Lighten up man, I suspect you ARE into the Honda koolaid. And of course I don't favor US or Euro's on balance. But I do remember certain very old US models(read era of overdesign) that would last extremely well, in my estimation, longer than a civics. You want antidotal: my wifes 86 CRX Si had to be junked in 96 because the frame rusted too badly to fix. And it had been undercoated well. It had been outside about half of the winters. The car looked and ran decent. Thats UNDERDESIGN IMO. I looked over a CRV for purchase lately and I can see areas where I think it will rust if we leave it out. I've got to think it's on purpose and I'm that does not make me proud of Honda's like I would like to be.

 

[NSXFRIEND]

I’m not suggesting the NSX isn’t light compared to a steel made NSX. But when you compare the aluminum NSX to a steel Corvette, they are about the same weight, even though the Corvette is bigger, in every dimension.
I’m just a bit surprised that it wouldn’t be a bit lighter, that’s all.

Why not compare a targa Corvette to a targa NSX, instead of a convertible Corvette to the targa NSX?
Also is it fair to compare the lighter Zanardi edition to a regular Covette, don't you have to compare the Zanardi to the (C5) Z06?!
I’m not suggesting the NSX isn’t light compared to a steel made NSX. But when you compare the aluminum NSX to a steel Corvette, they are about the same weight, even though the Corvette is bigger, in every dimension.
I’m just a bit surprised that it wouldn’t be a bit lighter, that’s all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C6

The primary structural element of the sixth-generation Z06 is aluminum instead of steel as on the non-Z06 cars. The hydroformed aluminum frame remains dimensionally identical to its steel brethren but are significantly lighter. The front fenders are made of carbon fiber to reduce weight, while wider rear fenders allow for the wider tires necessary to deal with the engine's increased power. The Z06 officially weighs 3132 lb

Nsx is 2090lbs without option C/D changer, luggage, or spare tire. With those options the NSX is 3010lbs still lighter than a Z06(C6)

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=124026
Worst still a ZR1 3350lbs takes 600hp for 200mph entry.

This article is funny comparing to Porsche Turbo not GT2 which does 205mph at 520hp and weights 3175 lbs.

 

[Osiris_x11]

more B.S. (has 'Prime become guano central?!?)...

Caution - don't read unless you want my opinion!

Absolutely! I really appreciate you taking the time to explain/convey your thoughts...

Sounds like your background may be even better than mine as to own all those cars you mentioned, you must drive three or four at once.

I'm no engineer, designer, tech', or even material-sciences expert. Just a consumer, not even an overly keen one at that. I listed (3) Accords & (2) Integras owned from new during a near ~20-year span (I actually omitted (2) Preludes owned during that span, as well). How can you assert that 3-4 vehicles need to be driven at the same, all by me to accumulate the aforementioned mileage? Do I need to draw it out on a cocktail napkin or such for you? Another one of your exaggarations. You sure you aren't a Democrat?!?

In a household of (4) drivers, vehicles get driven, obviously. Am I supposed to put every mile on every vehicle in the household during it's entire ownership period to have a valid opinion? Get real...

My responsibility was aquiring the cars, maintaining them, and then selling them. In-between all that, I drove them. Imagine that!

Lighten up man, I suspect you ARE into the Honda koolaid.

Howabout this, I'll lighten up the moment you stop w/ your generalizations, assumptions, and baseless/unfounded conclusions.

Not that I have to explain myself to you, for you don't know me nor my mind-set/thought-processes/situational-circumstances/needs/priorities/etc', but Honda/Acura are far from my most preferred list of makes/models. Though, I have to call it as I see it. Your original comment held about as much worth & validity as a cheaply xerox'd $3 monopoly bill.

There is no Koolaid in my 'fridge (mind), so to speak, for any make/model anywhere/anytime/anywayz. . .

 

[hofffam]

Many Japanese cars of the 70s were not particularly sturdy. But the 1st gen Accord was a landmark vehicle. It was the first Japanese car that had a combination of engine, ergonomics, and workmanship like a German car but at a much lower price. I think most people at the time thought Japanese cars were small and economical. Not exciting or unusually well made.

My 1974 Datsun 610's biggest problem was its interior. The fabric on the rear seat (where it received Texas sun) cracked/tore well before 100K. But the body, engine, and other mechanicals were strong well past 100K.

Except for a few muscle cars - I don't ever see any old Detroit vehicles from the 70s. Here in Texas I regularly see old pickups - but they don't look good.

I know many people with Hondas and Toyotas with well over 150K miles. I see no signs that they can't last much longer.

My 1995 Mazda Millenia S ran beautifully until my son crashed it last year. The paint was a bit tired but it lived in the sun most of its life.

 

[bfrank1972]

Worst still a ZR1 3350lbs takes 600hp for 200mph entry.

This article is funny comparing to Porsche Turbo not GT2 which does 205mph at 520hp and weights 3175 lbs.

Apologies for my nit picking but top speed has very little to do with weight - it's about aerodynamics, power, and gearing.

 

[NSXFRIEND]

Apologies for my nit picking but top speed has very little to do with weight - it's about aerodynamics, power, and gearing.

Actually the ZR1 has good drag Coef, it has probably room for few more on the top end. My point is at 600hp and all the extras on the ZR1 I was Hoping for 210mph. At the 600hp club and some modifications most any car can hit 200mph huyndai, sentra, many cars are hitting 200mph.

Tanto2 I agree some Hondas rust bad I think it has to do with the thin metal process.

 

[bfrank1972]

Actually the ZR1 has good drag Coef, it has probably room for few more on the top end. My point is at 600hp and all the extras on the ZR1 I was Hoping for 210mph. At the 600hp club and some modifications most any car can hit 200mph huyndai, sentra, many cars are hitting 200mph.

Tanto2 I agree some Hondas rust bad I think it has to do with the thin metal process.

Ah ok I see what you were saying, and yeah sometimes it's disappointing when comparing numbers to real life. Especially on the ragged edge - 200+ mph is no joke. One thing to note, at those speeds if the GT2 has a slightly better CD (I have no idea what either car is, just in theory) then it could make the difference. > 200 mph it might take an extra 200 hp to go an extra 10 mph. Also there are considerations of what the resistance does to your car - I've heard back in the day of older super modded Lingenfelter corvettes with hoods that cave in when moving >200 mph.

I'll take the GT2 and you take the modded Sentra :biggrin:

 

[satx]

Actually the ZR1 has good drag Coef, it has probably room for few more on the top end.

I don't know that the Cd has been published on the ZR1 but the Z06 has a .342 Cd. Not bad but I wouldn't call it all that great either, especially since both cars still produce lift. The vettes also have fairly sizable (sic?) frontal areas (the ZR1s front fenders are a little wider tha the Z06s I believe which would cause even more drag). A good aero comparison would be the regular C6 (best aero out of the bunch) which can go 190mph with 436 HP (GM specs). An NSX with it's much better aero charactoristics should hit that with ~370HP. Or you could take the 400HP C6 which can go 186 and compare it to a CTSC NSX (~same power as the vette) and the NSX should be able to hit ~195MPH. That's a big difference in aero for the NSX which will also produce less lift.

 

[scorp965]

Nsx is 2090lbs without option C/D changer, luggage, or spare tire. With those options the NSX is 3010lbs

Those are some HEAVY options

 

[Osiris_x11]

it's special VTec, j@'... or y0'

... go 190mph... An NSX... should hit that with ~370HP. . .

... or even ~100+ hp less if your this guy!

 

[s14_tat]

Re: it's special VTec, j@'... or y0'

... or even ~100+ hp less if your this guy!

he did admit that he was on a slight downhill to get past the 186mph mark.