How come the NSX isn't lighter?

J

Jamolah

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I've been comparing the weight of the NSX to the C5 Corvette (1997 to 2004). I decided to compare a 2003 NSX to a 2003 Corvette. How come the weight of these 2 cars is almost identical, yet the NSX is made out of aluminum and is smaller in every dimension.

This is not a knock on the NSX and I don’t want to start a flame war. I was just curious why they weigh almost the same?

NOTE: I wanted to mention that the C5Z06 is lighter than the NSX, but I didn’t want a barrage of people saying, “Yah well the NSX-R is lighter than the C5Z06”. So I decided to stick with the regular cars.
 
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...Cause fiberglass is lighter than aluminum.
 
fiberglass body vs. aluminum body.
cheap interior vs. well built interior (materials)

honestly, i don't know much about the corvettes, but these two will add a good amount of weight.

but then again, when you compare the weight of the nsx to any other mid engined sports car/super car, it is pretty light, even compared to the modern day f-cars, p-cars, and lambo's
 
weight-savings was intended to strengthen the chassis/frame...

When the same amount of aluminum & steel is used, in terms of weight, the aluminum structure/frame/components are more rigid & stiffer than if made from steel. That was the hallmark of the NSX development, as-per the actual owner's book. I can't recall the actual % of weight-savings in going w/ aluminum over steel, but it allowed the designers to make the NSX hecka'lot stiffer/firmer than if made by an equivalent amount of steel.

To be more concise...

A ~3000lbs' aluminum-structured/bodied vehicle as-in the NSX is a lot stiffer than a ~3000lbs' steel-structured/bodied vehicle.
 
scorp965 said:
The NSX is a removable Targa Top, which means it is heavier. If you compare the weight of an nsx-t to a convertible corvette, the nsx is significantly lighter. If you compare a coupe model 1999 nsx (zanardi) to a corvette, the nsx is significantly lighter.
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Why not compare a targa Corvette to a targa NSX, instead of a convertible Corvette to the targa NSX?
Also is it fair to compare the lighter Zanardi edition to a regular Covette, don't you have to compare the Zanardi to the (C5) Z06?!


Osiris_x11 said:
When the same amount of aluminum & steel is used, in terms of weight, the aluminum structure/frame/components are more rigid & stiffer than if made from steel. That was the hallmark of the NSX development, as-per the actual owner's book. I can't recall the actual % of weight-savings in going w/ aluminum over steel, but it allowed the designers to make the NSX hecka'lot stiffer/firmer than if made by an equivalent amount of steel.

To be more concise...

A ~3000lbs' aluminum-structured/bodied vehicle as-in the NSX is a lot stiffer than a ~3000lbs' steel-structured/bodied vehicle.
Click to expand...

I’m not suggesting the NSX isn’t light compared to a steel made NSX. But when you compare the aluminum NSX to a steel Corvette, they are about the same weight, even though the Corvette is bigger, in every dimension.

I’m just a bit surprised that it wouldn’t be a bit lighter, that’s all.
 
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I've had this thought as well - being a Porsche guy as well, steel bodied Porsches of the same year as the NSX are right in the same ballpark if not a smidge lighter than the NSX. The earlier/simpler P-cars are alot lighter actually (and have a back seat to boot). I think it has to do with sacrificing lightness for rigidity. Read through this: http://tachyonic.net/nsx/weekly16.html
 
the fiber glass body is lighter on the vette and the ls1 is a extremely light engine vs the c30b.

i bet you most of the weight from the nsx comes from the engine. a all aluminum push rod ls1 has less moving parts and is physically a smaller engine than a 4 cam dohc v-tec head engine.
 
popular mechanics 101...

Jamolah said:
But when you compare the aluminum NSX to a steel Corvette, they are about the same weight, even though the Corvette is bigger, in every dimension.
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The NSX is stiffer than the vehicle iterated for comparison (namely, the C5/C6 Corvettes), going by per-capita weight.

What's so hard to understand about that?

You got a vehicle that's stiffer/firmer/stronger than what it would be otherwise, had it been made from steel.

What you're seemingly/incessantly alluding to is a 2,500lbs'-2,750lbs' vehicle (desired/anticipated NSX) vs. a 3,000lbs' vehicle (actual NSX). But the trade-off would be a vehicle nowhere as stiff/rigid as the very NSX that we/you/me drive. . .

Look at this way: a 250lbs' heavyweight body-builder vs. a 275lbs' lineman in football. The lean muscle-mass/strength/agility/dexterity/coordination/etc' will more than likely be favorable w/ the former vs. the latter!

I mean, do I have to break-out the crayons to make things simpler? :D

(I'm kinda/sorta messin' w/ you... or mebbe not, hmmm!)

bfrank1972 said:
I think it has to do with sacrificing lightness for rigidity... Read through this: http://tachyonic.net/nsx/weekly16.html
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Awesome link, precisely what I was trying to convey/allude to.

Mucho'thanks for it, I got it now book-marked! :cool:

(a lot of the data/facts & concepts in that article/linkie are from the NSX development book given to the original owners back in '91, as well as the dealer's hardback book)
 
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Jamolah said:
Also is it fair to compare the lighter Zanardi edition to a regular Covette, don't you have to compare the Zanardi to the (C5) Z06?!
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You don't have to compare it to a Zanardi, just a regular NSX coupe. They are about 150lbs less then a NSX-T. The NSX coupe is just under 3000lbs and the Corvette is about 3200lbs.

You also have to consider how old the NSX is. It late 80's technology. Material science has come a long way since. The Corvette also combines a lot of weight savings techniques like fiber glass, composites, and balsa wood.

Aluminum is great, but expensive.
 
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omega2 said:
I didn't know they used balsa wood in corvettes. Isn't that stuff super fragile?
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It is sandwiched between stiffer material.
 
floor pan I think:smile:
 
A couple observations to keep in mind

After 5 years a typical vette interior starts to squeak and squeal, showing its weak chassis. A 15yr old NSX typically still drives over bumps with no interior squeaks or rattles.

The Average 1991 NSX will probably still be more rigid than a 2000 Corvette. My friend who has a 2001 vette always comments how my 92's interior sounds like new.

A group of track instructors at Pocono raceway constantly comment on how soon the Corvettes chassis start start to show weakening. They even commented on a C6 Z06 that one of them owned that he claimed the interior started rattling and squeaking after only +/- 10 track days. This coming from instructors that themselves race mustangs and vettes.

Typical cars are designed to last 15 years
The NSX was the First commercially manufactured car to be designed to last 30 years. Thus more rigid/durable construction everywhere.

Its actually also senna's fault, I read somewhere that senna asked for more rigidity during the final phase of testing. That may have added another 50-100 lbs or so as well (guessing)

I would expect that if the NSX had been designed to only last 15yrs like most cars it could have weighed 200-300 lbs less.
 
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NSX needs to be put on a diet....

Have you ever picked up an OEM NSX seat? front hood? wheels? exhaust? headers? spare tire? battery? and even the steering wheel?....Yes the body is AL, but the parts themselves are heavy as hell (not to mention the engine).

Last Friday's HPDE, I was able to hang with the faster C6 but so did the lighter Lotus Exige behind me.
 
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"To counter the small weight increase of the new 6-speed transmission and larger brakes, key body parts are now made with a newly developed 6000 series aluminum alloy that is up to 50 percent stronger, thus requiring less material to perform effectively. This thinner, lighter-weight new material is used in making the doors, fenders, and front and rear deck lids, among other key parts of the NSX. For example, by using this high-strength alloy, thinner doorskin material netted a 2.2 kg (4.9 lbs.) weight reduction without any sacrifice in strength. "

So I guess i should replace all of the noted parts from my 91 with 97+ parts for extra weight savings :biggrin:
 
When I first started looking into the NSX, I was also surprised at what it weighs. For its size and aluminum-intensiveness, I thought it would be ~2700lbs (10lbs/hp). Now that I have one, it's still a little surprising. The biggest is how much the various movable panels (hood/trunk/doors/engine cover) weigh. The E46M3 has an Al hood which is like 3x bigger, but doesn't seem any heavier (struts notwithstanding).

Given a lot of the doubt about long-term durability of the aluminum structure in the press at the car's introduction, I also think Honda overengineered it's structure quite a bit. Mine is rock-solid, as solid as my also-overengineered (and heavy) M6. In the decade+ since then, with more compute power for FEA and such along with more experience with aluminum (and the seemingly more 'disposable' nature of more cars today), I'd expect aluminum cars to be lighter now.
 
s14_tat said:
the fiber glass body is lighter on the vette and the ls1 is a extremely light engine vs the c30b.

i bet you most of the weight from the nsx comes from the engine. a all aluminum push rod ls1 has less moving parts and is physically a smaller engine than a 4 cam dohc v-tec head engine.
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It's surprising that the V6 (3.0/3.2L) is heavier than the V8(5.7L). But it must be the DOHCs in the C30b.

MaxGeek said:
You don't have to compare it to a Zanardi, just a regular NSX coupe. They are about 150lbs less then a NSX-T. The NSX coupe is just under 3000lbs and the Corvette is about 3200lbs.

You also have to consider how old the NSX is. It late 80's technology. Material science has come a long way since. The Corvette also combines a lot of weight savings techniques like fiber glass, composites, and balsa wood.

Aluminum is great, but expensive.
Click to expand...
I've never seen it mentioned the NSX is lighter than 3000lbs? Even the 1991 NSX is listed at 3010lbs (carpoint.com), I presume that's the lightest version. A C5Z06 is 3118lbs and a Coupe is around 3150lbs range.

I guess, because the NSX still looks so fresh and modern over the years you forget it was conceived in the late 80s early 90s.

But now I understand why the NSX weighs what it weighs. I guess that's why it's called the most reliable sports car ever built.
 
Ive got an engine in my garage and the block is not too heavy,I can carry it around,the heads for thier size are heavy.
 
Jamolah said:
I've never seen it mentioned the NSX is lighter than 3000lbs? Even the 1991 NSX is listed at 3010lbs (carpoint.com), I presume that's the lightest version. A C5Z06 is 3118lbs and a Coupe is around 3150lbs range.
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A coupe nsx is lighter than a coupe corvette.

A special edition nsx-r is lighter than a special edition Z06 corvette.

A 1999 coupe nsx (zanardi) is lighter than a 1999 coupe corvette.

A targa top nsx is lighter than a targa top corvette.

Does that answer your question?
 
Some time ago the engine weights were compared and the nsx engine is NOT heavier than an ls1, but they were close. The balsa wood is only used for a core between two layers of carbon(zo6 only). The corvette is body on frame, so all those inner panels are plastic vs aluminum unibody, and certainly the stiffness of all the bit and pieces is double a corvettes, not that that makes for a stiffer frame, just bit and pieces that are less failure prone. There are a whole lot of bits that are just too heavy duty, like the shifter mount, or the windshield washer mount. They were probably a bit worried about the aluminum, as was proper. Large safety factors. Ironically the smallest safety factors on this car are probably in the drivetrain where modders wish it was. The interior bits are quite heavy. Lots of soundproofing too. This car was built to last, very unusual for a Honda. I can't complain a bit, it just should have had a 6 liter engine. I've got mine down to 2775 and so far you can't tell by looking. The car feels much better though.
 

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