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It sounds like the dealer got you to commite a crime so that their crime would be less likely to come back at them. You need a lawyer.
Horrible f***ing news for me....
- Thread starter Brian2by2
- Start date
what do u mean by that Tony?
Brian,
I'm confused. Is your insurance company denying payment on the claim because of the vehicles' history?
If so they had no business taking your premium for a coverage that they knew was unserviceable.
Get the car checked out by a fair,reputable collision repair shop,
one that is not going to overstate any pre-existing problems that will effect it's use to you once this current loss is repaired.
I think you need do some research at your state's Department of Motor Vehicles. See if you can get a registration/title history.
That can give you a paper trail.
Carfax can only report what is available to them and I believe they are no better or as good as the State's DMV records they are just easier and faster.
If the car is able to be put back in correct shape and it is insurable, then keep it if you like. If you can't insure it then you have a big potential problem and may need some recourse.
I commend you on seeking your parents advice. Good luck.
I'm confused. Is your insurance company denying payment on the claim because of the vehicles' history?
If so they had no business taking your premium for a coverage that they knew was unserviceable.
Get the car checked out by a fair,reputable collision repair shop,
one that is not going to overstate any pre-existing problems that will effect it's use to you once this current loss is repaired.
I think you need do some research at your state's Department of Motor Vehicles. See if you can get a registration/title history.
That can give you a paper trail.
Carfax can only report what is available to them and I believe they are no better or as good as the State's DMV records they are just easier and faster.
If the car is able to be put back in correct shape and it is insurable, then keep it if you like. If you can't insure it then you have a big potential problem and may need some recourse.
I commend you on seeking your parents advice. Good luck.
Brian2by2 said:
To me, the phrase "salvage history" means more than a dented fender and door. I would expect a "salvaged" car to have had significant damage. I don't think you have much recourse.
I would have the car checked out. If it has been repaired correctly, its safety not compromised, and as you have said, You love how it drives.. Then keep it. A court battle is not something you want to get into lightly. It can drain you both emotionally and financially, and often no one wins in the end.
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Brian2by2 said:
You said the sticker is 15k, which is a fair price for a salvage title, but you paid more in cash to avoid taxes and thus paid for a fair market NSX. The dealer got you to do it this way but I don't understand why.
In my Province we have a book that states the minimum an NSX is worth and what taxes we must pay. The only exception is if you get it in writing that the car is for parts or is salvage, in which case it must be inspected before it can be put on the road.
By gettting you to agree to declare only 15k in taxes the dealer has an out on the salvage claim. He can say he told you and you removed the salvage sticker.
Talk to the attorney, that's a good first step. With that said, I would be leary of any attorney who reccomended suit before trying to come to an agreement on your own with the other party, the dealer in this case. As I said before. gather all the documents and facts. Who said what, where an afidavit can be obtained should be included. Discuss the "case" with council, and decide how it is best for you to proceed. Myself, I always try to do as much of the legal work as I can (small personal matters which this would fall into). What I mean by that is I have council, and we discuss everything and use their advice, but my first move to the other party is on my own...with the facts laid out, as well as what the next steps will be should a settlement not be reached. Second step might be simply to use the attorney's leterhead. I usually prepare a draft of what is to be sent out, allowing concil to edit. And so on down the line.Brian2by2 said:
The key is that you MUST have a solid case first. Writing letters and threataning suit does nothing. If everything you try fails, send these guys to knock on his door.
Unfortunately I have the same concerns as Tony. It may be that he encouraged you to commit tax fraud because he planned to do the same with regards to income, but he may also have been making certain you were in a bind and therefore had limited leverage against him if/when you discovered the truth.
I'm also concerned that since your bill of sale does show it was salvaged, no matter how wrapped in other gobbledy gook, your case is already weakened. I think your best shot is working with the dealer in a gradually more aggressive manner to see if he throws your little indiscretion back in your face. Who knows, he may cough up some bucks.
I'm also concerned that since your bill of sale does show it was salvaged, no matter how wrapped in other gobbledy gook, your case is already weakened. I think your best shot is working with the dealer in a gradually more aggressive manner to see if he throws your little indiscretion back in your face. Who knows, he may cough up some bucks.
Brian,
If I remember correctly, you had posted about this car prior to you purchasing it and you did know that it had a salvage history. You may have not understood exactly what that may entail, but that still doesn't leave you with any legal recourse. I believe that you have no case, as you knew it was salvaged and you also signed a disclosure acknowledging the fact. The seller most likely did not know exactly what caused the salvaged title, but surely knew it was salvaged or they wouldn't have bothered disclosing it to you. Your argument about the lack of a sticker is going to be difficult because you can't prove that the seller removed it himself. It may have already been removed before he took possession of the car, and if that isn't so, he will definitely say that it was. Save your money and hassle with the legal fees because you have no case. I agree with Pbassjo that your insurance company should still fix your car regardless. I feel sorry for you as I know you must feel like crap at this point, but take it as a lesson learned. You get what you paid for. Fight your insurance to fix the car and then either get rid of it or be happy owning it.
Regards,
Chris
If I remember correctly, you had posted about this car prior to you purchasing it and you did know that it had a salvage history. You may have not understood exactly what that may entail, but that still doesn't leave you with any legal recourse. I believe that you have no case, as you knew it was salvaged and you also signed a disclosure acknowledging the fact. The seller most likely did not know exactly what caused the salvaged title, but surely knew it was salvaged or they wouldn't have bothered disclosing it to you. Your argument about the lack of a sticker is going to be difficult because you can't prove that the seller removed it himself. It may have already been removed before he took possession of the car, and if that isn't so, he will definitely say that it was. Save your money and hassle with the legal fees because you have no case. I agree with Pbassjo that your insurance company should still fix your car regardless. I feel sorry for you as I know you must feel like crap at this point, but take it as a lesson learned. You get what you paid for. Fight your insurance to fix the car and then either get rid of it or be happy owning it.
Regards,
Chris
IMHO, Chris is exactly correct. You're best recourse is to get the insurance company to pay to fix the damage, get it inspected by someone who can make sure that it's safe, and then forget about what the Title history says, and enjoy the fact that you have an NSX.
The original bill of sale says "salvage history" and you paid a block in cash to help avoid tax and you're ready to get an attorney and go to court?
You'd better proceed with caution...
You'd better proceed with caution...
Hi Brian, I just wanted to tell you to find out the extent of the previous damage, before you freak out. An adjuster telling you that the car was a rollover doesn't necessarily mean that it slid down an embankment on its roof. Was there damage to the roof skin? the a-pillars?b-pillars?. It could have been classified as a rollover by a cop at the scene of the accident. It could have tipped on its side and slid. Didn't you say the door and fender were replaced? The adjuster probably ran your VIN through an insurance claim database called iso-claim to see all of the previous claims associated with your cars VIN, and the previous accident showed up. Ask the adjuster for info regarding the previous claim. Maybe you can get in touch with the shop that did the repairs. The bottom line is that when your car is on the frame rack either it measures out or it doesn't. If there was never any damage to the superstructure and only bolt on panels were replaced then your car is fine, and you can relax. On the other hand if your a and b pillars were flattened down so only midgets could get in the car, and some shop used a porta power to jack your roof back up you could have a problem. A few last things,first I am heavily involved in the insurance salvage arena, and as a result I have taken insurance totaled vehicles through state patrol quite a few times, sometimes they forget to put the sticker in the door jamb. Second, a salvage title DOES NOT mean significant damage has occured. Insurance companys total out cars for a variety of reasons. Sometimes a vehicle claim is paid when a car is stolen and the car turns up 2 months later-the insurance company is required to total out the car even though it has no damage. Also an insurance company may have a customer who has several high dollar policies and wishes their damaged vehicle to be totaled...the insurance company may do it. I have seen cars at the salvage auction with no more than a scratch. Good luck.
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if your dealer took extra cash and didn't claim it he is also looking at tax fraud.
Sorry to agree with others, but you don't have a case, sticker or not. You go into a salvage purchase with high risk which sometimes is outweighed by the cheaper cost of the salvaged vehicle. Sometimes that risk comes back to bite you. It is unfortunate, but it is just part of the deal. I say fix it up and enjoy it because it will do you no good to fight it, especially since you hedged on the taxes yourself. You will spend thousands in legal fees to try to recoup the 6 grand you overpaid on the car and then still have to get it fixed. That money could be used to fix up the vehicle and be done with it. This is why I would never purchase a car in Florida.
Honestly I remember too that you posted once about knowing that it was salvaged and you said did not care since you paid only 23'000 (or similar for it, adding new tires. Am I correct? normally I have a very good memory). The post has since be removed since it was in the thread about the 2by2 crap 
. Sorry if I am mistaken about this...
. Sorry if I am mistaken about this...
Brian2by2 said:
You were placed on notice of the salvage history by your own admission that it was on the bill of sale. The fact that there was no sticker may lead to a violation against the dealer but probably would not be considered a fraudulent inducing act considering that your bill of sale clearly advised you that the car had a history. Whether you knew what that history was would still be your own fault in not following up on the statement on that bill of sale.
Your complicity in the tax fraud also doesn't help your credibility with respect to your argument that the lack of a sticker caused you to purchase the vehicle because you believed it "was clean."
Take the insurance money, fix the car and post the VIN here in the event this car ends up on the market at some point in the future.
Bob
RSO 34 said:
Although specifics vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, the above sounds generally on point from a legal and a practical standpoint,.
I wouldn't be a good attorney (Wisconsin, not Florida) if I didn't say that this is not legal advice, no attorney client relationship is intended or implied, etc.
I do remember the previous posts as well.
If/when you speak to an attorney in Florida, make sure you inform the attorney of everything that happened. Serious thought must be given before you take the next step and file a lawsuit. If you paid $23k and the car is perhaps worth $15-18k now, it it may not be cost-effective to file.
As I think you are aware, you may have significant hurdles to overcome. The 'as-is' and 'salvage title' disclosure may well trump anything that was said orally, as most states apply a fairly consistent version of the parol evidence rule that may exclude evidence outside of (extrinsic to) the contract.
That money may be better spent in relation to the insurance claim. Although it may make things more difficult initially, it will probably go smoother if you are completely open with the insurance company. Most, if not all, insurance policies include a duty of cooperation that may void their obligations if you are not honest with them.
It is too bad that you had such bad luck. First the wheel fell off, then the accident (or were these the same events?) and now the salvage issue. Hopefully your internet business is as lucrative as you previously stated, in which case you should come out alright.
If you do decide to get another NSX, buy the best one you can afford. That will usually save you money in the long-term.
YMMV.
Yes, I was aware that the car had a salvage history, however, i have 2 witnesses (one of which is not associated with me but rather just a guy i paid to look at teh car) that both remember him saying that the salvage title was only because of a few body parts being replaced. I asked him if he knew which and he said the bumper and the door. It was more than that. My insurance adjuster told me that he had to have been aware of the type of accident the car was involved in and that he MUST make me aware that the car was a rollover (extreme accident i guess ) and he failed to.
I'm not trying to say that I didn't know it was salvaged. The carfax he gave me had to have been doctored though because i would not have missed that. I am young and naive, but not completely ignorant.
I am not sure what I will do yet, however, I would like to thank Neil Miller of Rick Case Honda/Acura and everyone at Rick Case Honda for being very very understanding and helpful in this situation!!
Anyone in the south/central florida area: I HIGHLY recommend Neil Miller...he came highly recommended to me (too late unfortunately) and I would gladly pass on that recommendation!!!
) and he failed to. I'm not trying to say that I didn't know it was salvaged. The carfax he gave me had to have been doctored though because i would not have missed that. I am young and naive, but not completely ignorant.
I am not sure what I will do yet, however, I would like to thank Neil Miller of Rick Case Honda/Acura and everyone at Rick Case Honda for being very very understanding and helpful in this situation!!
Anyone in the south/central florida area: I HIGHLY recommend Neil Miller...he came highly recommended to me (too late unfortunately) and I would gladly pass on that recommendation!!!
Brian2by2 said:
A few body parts being replaced doesn't sound like something that would warrant a Salvage Title.
Here is a brief definition I found:
A salvage vehicle is any title bearing vehicle that has been declared a total loss from Fire, Vandalism, Collision, Theft or Flood.
Brian,
The dealer would be required to have a reasonable idea of what may have happened, based upon the premise that being in the industry, the dealer should be able to detect some body work. However, most salespeople, managers, etc., are not trained in this and do not know how to detect it. They most certainly would not know the details of the accident unless they were told it, or repaired it while in their possession. If you can prove they knew that, your case would be strenghtened, but still weak. Salvaged is salvaged. It was disclosed and a reasonable person should know what it means. I don't think you'll get any sympathy from a judge for being a young man trying to buy an exotic car on a budget.
The dealer would be required to have a reasonable idea of what may have happened, based upon the premise that being in the industry, the dealer should be able to detect some body work. However, most salespeople, managers, etc., are not trained in this and do not know how to detect it. They most certainly would not know the details of the accident unless they were told it, or repaired it while in their possession. If you can prove they knew that, your case would be strenghtened, but still weak. Salvaged is salvaged. It was disclosed and a reasonable person should know what it means. I don't think you'll get any sympathy from a judge for being a young man trying to buy an exotic car on a budget.
Brian2by2 said:
That is not necessarily true. (by which I mean the title doctoring, and not a dig on your intellectual prowess or the lack thereof.
) I don't know what happened in your case, but if you a search of prime on "title washing" I think you will find that it is possible to clean a title and perhaps avoid detection through carfax, which is of course only as good as the state records upon which it relies. I believe that this may be an issue with Florida, but I can't recall any more at presentConsidering you have admitted that the bill of sale advised you it was a salvaged vehicle, I fail to see what you expect to get out of filing a lawsuit. Your entire premise seems to be based upon the lack of a sticker that would have afforded you no more information than that which you already knew, to wit: you bought a salvaged car.
This "young and naive" pitch doesn't fly either considering your earlier posts that bordered on boasting about how great a deal you got because it was a salvage but you didn't care since the price was right. I also seem to remember your long since deleted thread that touted your internet site as well as shilling for some book that causes me to be less than empathetic at this time. On the one hand, you wanted everyone here to believe you were a successful entrepreneur and now you want to portray yourself as a duped kid. Sorry to rain on your parade, but you can't have it both ways.
Just take the insurance, fix the car and stop the "my lawyer will beat up his lawyer" chatter.
This "young and naive" pitch doesn't fly either considering your earlier posts that bordered on boasting about how great a deal you got because it was a salvage but you didn't care since the price was right. I also seem to remember your long since deleted thread that touted your internet site as well as shilling for some book that causes me to be less than empathetic at this time. On the one hand, you wanted everyone here to believe you were a successful entrepreneur and now you want to portray yourself as a duped kid. Sorry to rain on your parade, but you can't have it both ways.
Just take the insurance, fix the car and stop the "my lawyer will beat up his lawyer" chatter.
Good advice. Take it from a lawyer.
RyRy210 said:
It may not sound like it would warrant a salvage title, but insurance companies look at the damage of the car whether it be 1 panel or 2, etc... and if it exceeds something like 70-75% of the total value, then it is the decision of the insurance company to label it salvaged or not. Prime example is I had an 89 CRXsi that got a small rear end damage causing the right side of the rear umper to buckle and the force bent the right rear fender a little and also creased right B pillar between the rear hatch and the rear right quarter window. They stated that the structure of the car was breached. Well it didn't look like much but the damage exceeded 80% of the retail value, so they salvaged it. I bought it back for 15% of the retail value and it drove fine and I managed to bang the dent out and replace the bumper myself. So I was happy but it had a salvaged title regardless....
When you get your attorney have him contact Manheim they are one of the largest wholsale auction companies out there. If your seller bought the car from a salvage auction then you would have him dead to rights. If you want you can send me the VIN I can call the manager that runs the local auction here and see if he will check if the car ever went thru a salvage auction I am not sure if he would do that for me but for sure they would do it if there was a attorney involved. the website is www.manheim.com
Carfax
Well there's an easy way to solve this part. Do you still have the Carfax he gave you? Ran a Carfax now on the site and compare it to the one he gave you. The histories should be the same except the one on the site should include you titling the NSX recently.
As a side note, I agree with the others in that I do not think it would be wise to proceed.
First, the bill of sale says 'Salvaged'. Secondly, on record, you paid $15,000 for the car which is well within the salvage value range. Now, how will you prove you paid more? Did you write a check or was it cash? Did you get a receipt for the extra amount? As far as everyone is concerned, you paid $15k for a salvaged NSX. Can you prove you paid more?
Also, like the others have said, salvage can mean alot of things and the vehicle doesn't have to be damaged beyond its value to be salvaged. It's possible that panel damage in addition to other factors caused the insurance company to 'total' it.
Well there's an easy way to solve this part. Do you still have the Carfax he gave you? Ran a Carfax now on the site and compare it to the one he gave you. The histories should be the same except the one on the site should include you titling the NSX recently.
As a side note, I agree with the others in that I do not think it would be wise to proceed.
First, the bill of sale says 'Salvaged'. Secondly, on record, you paid $15,000 for the car which is well within the salvage value range. Now, how will you prove you paid more? Did you write a check or was it cash? Did you get a receipt for the extra amount? As far as everyone is concerned, you paid $15k for a salvaged NSX. Can you prove you paid more?
Also, like the others have said, salvage can mean alot of things and the vehicle doesn't have to be damaged beyond its value to be salvaged. It's possible that panel damage in addition to other factors caused the insurance company to 'total' it.
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