Honda versus Nissan: Mizuno talks of his philosophy

[TURBO2GO]

All this talk of a hybrid NSX. What a difference in philosophy. Listen to chief enginner Kazutoshi Mizuno talk about the importance of improvements, his philosophy about a sustainable car versus a performance car, and the Halo effect of a car like the GT-R on Nissan's name. The complete attitude, everything Honda is missing.

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[e.pie]

Honda is just turning in to an appliance company like Toyota.

 

[TURBO2GO]

By the sounds of this interview they are not planning on letting up on GTR improvements. If they'd just improve its looks.... Good God...

 

[e.pie]

By the sounds of this interview they are not planning on letting up on GTR improvements. If they'd just improve its looks.... Good God...

And weight :redface:


If it were closer to 3000lbs than 4000lbs it'd be a lot more interesting.

 

[Caustic]

By the sounds of this interview they are not planning on letting up on GTR improvements. If they'd just improve its looks.... Good God...

I've asked this before... what would sales be like if the GTR looked like a Zonda?

 

[tbnsxt]

like epie said, if the gtr was 3000 lbs rather than 3800 i bet the performance would be even more astonishing.

I wonder why when designing the gtr the engineers didn't make the car of aluminum or even carbon fiber. It almost seems like a step backwards from an engineering standpoint.

 

[TURBO2GO]

like epie said, if the gtr was 3000 lbs rather than 3800 i bet the performance would be even more astonishing.

I wonder why when designing the gtr the engineers didn't make the car of aluminum or even carbon fiber. It almost seems like a step backwards from an engineering standpoint.

Because that stuff is expensive.

 

[Chinonsx02]

GTR owner here and I have to say its in another level of the NSX!

 

[N Spec]

Aluminum and carbon fiber is not always needed to make a car lighter. The "less is more" motto rings in here. The GTR is heavy because it's a big car.

If the GTR looked more exotic, it would be a complete package, but the GTR has never been low slung in its entire history. It has always been a sports sedan/saloon car. Now, if Nissan re-made the Mid4, that would be fantastic!

Back in the 80s, Honda took that risk and Nissan choose not to. Nowadays, no one wants to take that chance anymore, everything is bloated looking and it shows on the scale too.

 

[BD]

What if Honda create a car that is on part in terms of performance as the GTR but with a hybrid platform?

 

[desertwind]

Here's the deal, Honda don't make anything now (nor does it appear that it wants to) like Nissan's GTR (whatever its faults).
To me, its a mindset that needs to change before we can ever hope of seeing a proper 2nd generation NSX.
This should be the road map:

1. We need Honda head-honcho directors to head-hunt someone like a Honda Carlos Ghosn, say someone like Ulrich Bez away from Aston.
2. Then spin-off the "R" division to focus on making interesting stuff for the boring Honda lineup, but also like AMG, the chance to do a new NSX.

Then all would be good.

 

[Honcho]

I wonder why when designing the gtr the engineers didn't make the car of aluminum or even carbon fiber. It almost seems like a step backwards from an engineering standpoint.

Cost. An aluminum or CF GT-R would be $150,000+, which strays from the GT-R philosophy of supercar performance at a reasonable price. The GT-R is not an "exercise in engineering" like the NSX or LF-A. Instead, it uses a lot of off the shelf tech for max performance while keeping the cost down.

 

[TURBO2GO]

What if Honda create a car that is on part in terms of performance as the GTR but with a hybrid platform?

How are they going to do that? They can't even build a good econo hybrid, nevermind a performance one. The Insight is kind of a POS compared to the Prius. The CRZ is some lost vehicle that doesn't know what to be. It's neither performance or true economy. Even Hyundai's hybrids are more advanced and they just started doing it. All I have seen from Honda are these wimpy little electric motors and tiny batteries. Not a single car can run on EV mode even for 100 yards. The annoying buzzy engine kicks on the second you tap the accelerator. The cars are heavy, and the MPG rating is only marginally better.

You're saying all of a sudden Honda is going to pull a miracle out of their ass and make a Hybrid that has performance on par with a GT-R? I'd be happy with a Hybrid that has 60% of its performance but I don't think even that will happen. Add to this the design... the ugliness of all the vehicles... and we expect yet one more miracle... a pretty car, and you can see the attitude around here.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'll tell you why Honda wants to do hybrid, because they look at the GT-R and think "well there is probably no way we can outdo that" so they say "lets go down this other path". What they need to do is make something similar in performance in a very sexy package.

Chinonsx02 is right... the GTR is on another level. Both in terms of performance and in terms of ugly.

Design sells. If the NSX was ugly, there is no way it would be holding its value now like it does. Beyond the history, the performance, the aluminum, the driving position, beyond all this stuff is the design. If this car was ugly, this would be one tiny forum right now. Half the NSX's "legendary" status has to do with its looks. Perhaps few talk about it, but it's defintely a fact. I'm just not sure the Japanese can design anything pretty anymore. The Koreans can though.

 

[Caustic]

design sells. If the nsx was ugly, there is no way it would be holding its value now like it does. Beyond the history, the performance, the aluminum, the driving position, beyond all this stuff is the design. If this car was ugly, this would be one tiny forum right now. Half the nsx's "legendary" status has to do with its looks. Perhaps few talk about it, but it's defintely a fact.

qft

 

[Ric]

Give this man a medal or something. He speaks the truth.

I bought this car mainly for its look. If it were ugly, I wouldn't even bother even if it's aluminum or Senna helped designed it and whatnot.

Design sells. If the NSX was ugly, there is no way it would be holding its value now like it does. Beyond the history, the performance, the aluminum, the driving position, beyond all this stuff is the design. If this car was ugly, this would be one tiny forum right now. Half the NSX's "legendary" status has to do with its looks. Perhaps few talk about it, but it's defintely a fact. I'm just not sure the Japanese can design anything pretty anymore. The Koreans can though.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I am ASTOUNDED that Honda doesn't get this. Lets say a front engine is the better engineering solution... WHO GIVES A SHIT if it's going to ruin the look? They should never have even CONSIDERED that.

If the GT-R looked pretty, I'd own one now. No doubt in my mind. If there is an NSX that looks as good or better than my current car, is more modern, and has better performance, why would I NOT buy it?

Sometimes I am baffled at people's reactions to my car. Screaming across the street, thumbs ups, words like "legend" and "classic" and this and that... what is it that makes someone get out of their car at a red light, walk up to my window, and say something about it? It isn't because they are a Senna fan or read car magazines back in 1991. It's the look. That is the INITIAL draw. We are all drawn to design. I have this stupid Porsche Design food blender that just sucks as a blender but I still use it to make my smoothies and wash it with some amount of love. LOL... when was the last time you saw an ugly apple product?

Why doesn't Honda get this? They try to give us more engineering, more practicality, better fuel milage, more reliability, hybrid technology. If its ugly, no one will care! They will overlook it in a daily driver, but who wants an ugly sports car?

Looks... Sound... even Mizuno keeps talking in the above video some nonsense about the car being your "lover" (notice they never say wife), but he forgets that "Kondo" or whatever the word is for passion and emotion... that should include looks... and sound... Ferrari gets it. Lamborghini gets it. Maserati and Alfa get it. Even Porsche gets it to a certain extent. The NSX was a reliable, well-built, Italian exotic alternative. The GTR really isn't one. I don't care how many people here deny it, what they like in the NSX is that Italian-like flare this car has and they give up the name and sound for other things like reliability and the things the NSX actually does better.

Who here wouldn't take a 458 right now? The new NSX needs to stay within that same spirit. Don't be another GT-R, be a well-built exotic alternative. That is how you regain legend status. With the way Honda is currently designing transformers... I mean... Cars... I don't know how they are going to make a nice looking NSX. We've already seen 2-3 versions...

 

[TURBO2GO]

And what's up with the LFA? It's not ugly, but it doesn't send my heart racing either. For 400K and all that engineering, it should have been better. They revised that nose a lot to make it more aggressive looking (opposite of what Nissan did with the GT-R), but its still kind of weird looking from some angles and it has that long hood thanks to a front engine.

An engine in the back gives designers a lot more room for creativity. That should be a no-brainer for a team leader to say "this halo sports car will be mid-engine".

 

[e.pie]

Pedestrian impact standards have all but ruined aesthetics of modern cars. Everything looks stubby and fat. No more graceful, low wedge shapes.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Pedestrian impact standards have all but ruined aesthetics of modern cars. Everything looks stubby and fat. No more graceful, low wedge shapes.

This is an excuse. Is the Aventador stubby? What about the 458? How about the Alfa 8C? Is the Lotus Esprit coming out stubby? Zondas? Koenigseggs? Last I checked these cars are selling in europe... european impact standards are from europe. How about the ZR-1? that's not stubby.

Now we are going to sit here and blame a pedestrian standard for shitty design?

 

[kookoo4nsx]

0-60 in 2.9seconds and 11.2 at 123mph. Sure it COULD be faster but perhaps the engineers thought the weight was appropriate and worked well with all of the electronics on board. Remember, this car is only 90 grand. Aluminum and carbon would perhaps increase the cost of development and final price by quite a bit.

20psi to achieve 530hp seems kind of high on 3.8 liters. SOS can do 700 hp on 3.5 liters with less boost.

And weight :redface:


If it were closer to 3000lbs than 4000lbs it'd be a lot more interesting.

 

[TURBO2GO]

0-60 in 2.9seconds and 11.2 at 123mph. Sure it COULD be faster but perhaps the engineers thought the weight was appropriate and worked well with all of the electronics on board. Remember, this car is only 90 grand. Aluminum and carbon would perhaps increase the cost of development and final price by quite a bit.

20psi to achieve 530hp seems kind of high on 3.8 liters. SOS can do 700 hp on 3.5 liters with less boost.

It's now 545 HP. Up for the 2013 model being sold in January. Up another 15. This car, unlike the NSX, is constantly improving. Yes, the weight seems to be a non-issue and I guess necessary for what it does. Also I don't think the boost level matters that much... You can't compare a factory car to a tuned aftermarket car. Factory has to meet emissions, longevity standards, high altitude and extreme temperature standards, etc. If they factory feels comfy with 20 PSI I am sure there is a design behind it.

 

[BD]

When you put a turbo in a car, the HP figure can always be adjusted :wink:

That is why under the NA application, P/F/L all have very little improvements until model year change.

Turbo, I think it is time for you to sell your NSX and buy a GTR :biggrin:

 

[TURBO2GO]

Vance the suspension has been improved. The brakes have been improved. The electronics have been upgraded. You hear Mizuno... They are committed. The NSX was ignored. Saying that it's "hard" because the car was NA is giving Honda an excuse. Nissan isn't turning up boost. They are really improving the car. 911 style... But at even a faster rate. This car is destroying supercars. If it keeps going at this rate it's just going to redefine performance regardless of dollars.

 

[e.pie]

0-60 in 2.9seconds and 11.2 at 123mph. Sure it COULD be faster but perhaps the engineers thought the weight was appropriate and worked well with all of the electronics on board. Remember, this car is only 90 grand. Aluminum and carbon would perhaps increase the cost of development and final price by quite a bit.

20psi to achieve 530hp seems kind of high on 3.8 liters. SOS can do 700 hp on 3.5 liters with less boost.

All of that weight takes a toll though, especially with as fast at the GTR is.


Tires, brakes, and other wear items all see much more abuse and wear moving around that much heft.