Honda to pull out of F1?
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It does make you wonder if they will release the new NSX on time or wait for the market to change. As was said earlier, it's daring to release a car that's going to loose money just for show, especially if the same reasoning made them pull out of F1...
I too wont have a straggler to root for :-(.
I too wont have a straggler to root for :-(.
I wonder if this line of thinking could ultimately impact the IRL....since obviously all IRL cars have Honda engines. I can only imagine what the cost would be as the sole engine manufacturer for an entire series??!?
Getting 1 or 2 sponsors will be very hard, let alone 20. STR has not been able to find sponsors other than Red Bull itself. Super Aguri couldn't find sponsors and they had a tiny budget to cover.
Honda will not produce engines according to reports - they are ending all F1 activities. Ross Brawn is apparently already talking about getting engines from Ferrari.
I wonder if this line of thinking could ultimately impact the IRL....since obviously all IRL cars have Honda engines. I can only imagine what the cost would be as the sole engine manufacturer for an entire series??!?
The cost to Honda for the IRL is pretty small - with no competiton, they do basically zero engine development. So their expense is to build/rebuild like 50 engines per year and the teams do pay some amount for that - like $1.2m per car. So the IRL is probably break-even for Honda, maybe a few million per year at the most.
It is a sad day to be a Honda fan. 
At least we have Acura in ALMS...we just need to find away to stop their P1 and P2 competition (Audi, Penske) from fleeing!
At least we have Acura in ALMS...we just need to find away to stop their P1 and P2 competition (Audi, Penske) from fleeing!
Random thought, I wonder which team will be next? Honda pulling out, while sad, is actually a smart move if it helps the company in a down economy. I wonder if starts a domino effect? Maybe not the other manufacturers but sponsors as well. F1's very very high costs may have finally caught up with them.
Just thinking out loud.
Just thinking out loud.
Fukui couldn't wait to pull out of F1 I'm sure. This gives him the perfect opportunity. The ASCC's delays are probably due to the same mindset of ultra-conservatism.
Nothing he's done makes me think he cares on iota about performance. He's an ultra-conservative leader who takes little to no chances and could care less about racing.
Nothing he's done makes me think he cares on iota about performance. He's an ultra-conservative leader who takes little to no chances and could care less about racing.
Just read that Honda will sell the Honda F1 team for basically nothing - for which you get a new factory, full-sized wind tunnel, all of the intellectual property, all of the cars, etc. The assets are probably worth $100m or more. But the stipulation is that the buyer has to have the resources to pay for the annual operating costs - about $300m.
I Don't think that,
There going to need to start making some budget cuts here and there (heard that there slowing down production even shutting down factory's)
They won't cancel die NSX/ASCC since it's nearly done.
I have read that Fukui worked at the motorcycle racing department of Honda so do think he cares about Racing (other wise they would not have re started the F1 racing team)
If the situation gets really bad i see Honda stopping all racing programs cancelling the NSX and selling the Jet program. (for example to avoiding going in to GM like problems) but it's not that bad yet lets hope it stays with cancelling F1.
There going to need to start making some budget cuts here and there (heard that there slowing down production even shutting down factory's)
They won't cancel die NSX/ASCC since it's nearly done.
I have read that Fukui worked at the motorcycle racing department of Honda so do think he cares about Racing (other wise they would not have re started the F1 racing team)
If the situation gets really bad i see Honda stopping all racing programs cancelling the NSX and selling the Jet program. (for example to avoiding going in to GM like problems) but it's not that bad yet lets hope it stays with cancelling F1.
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Perhaps someone will buy the team but with oil at $40/barrel and projected to fall to $25/barrel, perhaps the mid-east investor types will be a bit more hesitant to spend that kind of money.
Given F1's huge popularity and all of the money around it, it seems to me that every team could/should be profitable if:
1) The split of TV, ad, track-fees and other revenue was 80/20% in favor of the teams, verus the current 60/40% in favor of FOM (Bernie).
2) FIA (and/or FOTA) capped all F1 racing expenses for each team at $200m per year (or some such number).
Then a F1 team would be a very valuable thing to own because it makes money and is fun. Leagues like NFL, MLB, FIFA, etc. have created environments were some teams are worth literally $1b or more. And they've done it by controlling cost and ensuring some reasonably fair distribution of revenue. Can you imagine the owner of the Cowboys having to "give" away the team to get out of the football business?
Today, owning an F1 franchise is basically a huge liability. If F1 were properly run, every F1 team would make money and the value of having an F1 franchise would grow year-over-year.
Honda pulled out of the 1992 Season with the announcement during the mid season. They didn't even give McLaren enough time to secure a good engine deal, hence their downfall during mid to late 1990's.
I truly believe Honda is leaving F1 due to lack of results which in many investor's eyes, not a worthy investment. Granted, their cars sales is down by as much as 30% plus the last two months, but so are Toyota, BMW, MB, Renault, etc. Unless Toyota and BMW pull out too, I don't believe Honda's excuse.
$300 - $400 million is a big deal, but no really a big number for Honda. Back in the 1980's, when Honda car sales were only 1/3 of today, they were spending some thing like $90 to $180 million on Engine development by the end of 1992. $180 million dollars back in 1991/2 is pertty much same as today's budget.
They pulled out of F1 in 1992 after learning their glory days were over, they couldn't compete with Renault.
I truly believe Honda is leaving F1 due to lack of results which in many investor's eyes, not a worthy investment. Granted, their cars sales is down by as much as 30% plus the last two months, but so are Toyota, BMW, MB, Renault, etc. Unless Toyota and BMW pull out too, I don't believe Honda's excuse.
$300 - $400 million is a big deal, but no really a big number for Honda. Back in the 1980's, when Honda car sales were only 1/3 of today, they were spending some thing like $90 to $180 million on Engine development by the end of 1992. $180 million dollars back in 1991/2 is pertty much same as today's budget.
They pulled out of F1 in 1992 after learning their glory days were over, they couldn't compete with Renault.
"At least we have Acura in ALMS...we just need to find away to stop their P1 and P2 competition (Audi, Penske) from fleeing!"
Audi is out so Acura shouldhave less competetion this year! Sad to see Audi out...the competetion was getting close..
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=258521&lid=headline&lpos=topStory_auto_racing
Audi is out so Acura shouldhave less competetion this year! Sad to see Audi out...the competetion was getting close..
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/story/?id=258521&lid=headline&lpos=topStory_auto_racing
Sweet. Maybe they'll field a Nascar team. How about that Pushrod V8 Honda? :wink:
When I first read the news I cried my eyes out. What am I going to do with my early mornings every sunday? How could Honda do this to me? After years of loyalty. Buying their products. Preaching of their goodness.
WAIT! THEY WERE PAYING JENSEN BUTTON 29 MILLION A YEAR? ARE YOU F'IN KIDDING ME? YOU DESERVE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS. THAT GUY HAS DONE NOTHING IN HIS SIX OR SEVEN YEARS IN F1.
SEE YA JENSON........HAVE A GOOD LIFE!
Really? They paid that loser 29 million dollars? WW!
Now I understand why that clown was always smiling after the car blew up!
WAIT! THEY WERE PAYING JENSEN BUTTON 29 MILLION A YEAR? ARE YOU F'IN KIDDING ME? YOU DESERVE TO GO OUT OF BUSINESS. THAT GUY HAS DONE NOTHING IN HIS SIX OR SEVEN YEARS IN F1.
SEE YA JENSON........HAVE A GOOD LIFE!
Really? They paid that loser 29 million dollars? W
W!Now I understand why that clown was always smiling after the car blew up!
The design may be nearly done but there is a long way to go - and lots of cost - to bring that car to market. Reliability, hot weather, cold weather, crash testing. Emissions and safety certifications, factory tooling, worker training, dealer training, manuals and publications, parts soucing, supply chain startup, etc. They have easily a few hundred million to go to bring that car to market. Also, even if all of that were done, if each car is going to be sold at a loss, then they may still opt to kill it.
I'm wondering if they will kill Acura all together. Acura sales have been falling for years, even while the lux market was boiling over. The R&D effort to go upmarket with Acura specific platforms and engines will be costly and the V8 has already been killed. So if Acura doesn't upgrade its products sales will continue to fall. But the cost to upgrade the products will be huge and the lux market is definitely slowing. Will a new NSX do anything for the Acura brand if the rest of the lineup is the same stuff as today? If can see the marketing benefit of the new NSX spearheading a new upmarket Acura product lineup. But if there is no new product lineup, what does the NSX bring to the party?
Fukui said something about focusing on "core business" - is Acura core?
comment in WSJ article was interesting
Was hoping that some relevant F1-related innovations would find their way into road cars. Honda has fallen behind in materials (CF/composites) and advanced brake, suspension and transmission technology, particularly against the German constructors.
The push for allocating R&D into mass-production vehicles does not bode well for limited-run cars like the NSX, or whatever their next-gen halo car is.
###########
Note that Honda was not an active constructor for many years (1969-2005); however they were a successful engine supplier to several teams (Spirit, Lotus, McLaren, Tyrrell and Williams), leading to 5 WDCs under Honda-power - including the 3 by Ayrton that helped inspire a certain mid-engine exotic
.
WSJ 12/5/08 article said:
Was hoping that some relevant F1-related innovations would find their way into road cars. Honda has fallen behind in materials (CF/composites) and advanced brake, suspension and transmission technology, particularly against the German constructors.
The push for allocating R&D into mass-production vehicles does not bode well for limited-run cars like the NSX, or whatever their next-gen halo car is.
###########
Note that Honda was not an active constructor for many years (1969-2005); however they were a successful engine supplier to several teams (Spirit, Lotus, McLaren, Tyrrell and Williams), leading to 5 WDCs under Honda-power - including the 3 by Ayrton that helped inspire a certain mid-engine exotic
.
+1, I some how think this is all of the problems around Max Mosley,Bernie Ecclestone, FIA's bs and quid pro quo has started to mount and is going to turn into a Cancer of FIA and espcially F1 as well. Just really bs and sad to see this
oh gwad no - nascar is spreading
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Honestly its the way things are going now - yea turn left for mega profits -
turn left and right and loose money like GM.
There is a saying at GM.
1) CEO's COO's CFO's and the board of directors say - waka waka
2) UAW Sez - WAAAAAAAAAAAAA- I want my fucking raise and I want to build shitty product and I still want raise. Gimme Mah Monez
3) GM asembly line worker says - wait we dont need nuts and bolts to build our GM prodcut we just use hot glue guns and zip ties when the nut and bolt tray is empty for the asembly line items - were advised by our union rep at the UAW to participate in a Lottery scam "wtf is your lottery scam you speak of ?" oh you take the nuts and bolts from the tray and throw them into the air and if a shop worker gets injured you get 20% of the medcal paid settlement.
GM we dont build cars - we just bleed money.
From Honda's F1 website
They have a car almost ready, designed by Ross Brown, which means it could be one of the fastest car on the grid. Honda will support them till March; hopefully some one will step in and buy the team.
Following the statement made by Takeo Fukui, President of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. in Tokyo today, members of the senior management and Jenson Button have responded with great optimism:
Nick Fry
“Despite the obvious disappointment that we all felt on hearing the news from Honda Motor Co. we do understand that this decision was one which they felt they had to take in light of the current global economic situation and the resulting impact on the worldwide automobile market.
“Last night’s meeting with the staff was difficult for everyone but judging by what we have seen here in Brackley today, that has quickly given rise to a steely determination. The directors of the Honda Racing F1 Team now intend to make every effort possible to secure the future of the team and we know we can count on the continued support and fighting spirit of the great team of people we have here in Brackley. Our staff have been a credit to themselves, to our team and to Formula One over the past 24 hours and I would like to take this opportunity to say how proud we are of them today.
“The RA109, our 2009 F1 contender, is our first car developed under the technical leadership of Ross Brawn. With the resources Ross has at his disposal and confirmation that Honda will provide the necessary support to complete the car in time for the first race in Melbourne, I am sure that we can still have a very successful 2009 season if a new owner can be found. One new major sponsor is already signed for 2009 and discussions are well advanced with others. Offers of support from around the world have been generous and I’m sure that with that kind of goodwill towards the team we have a good chance of competing even in this difficult economic situation.
“We have had a number of potentially suitable investors approach us since the news broke and we now we want to make sure that we have the right owner for the team to enable to us to continue at the right level.
“There is no doubt in my mind that Formula One can have a good future and that this team can be part of it. The sport, including FOTA, the FIA and FOM, is already well down the road of ensuring a more sustainable existence and I’m sure that this work will continue to accelerate in the coming weeks, making our team a very good investment for the right buyer.”
Ross Brawn
“Our information is that, relative to the other teams, we have a very strong car in development here at Brackley and we will continue to develop the RA109 to ensure a strong start to 2009 and improvement through the season.
“This is a unique opportunity. The facilities we have here are among the best in the sport as a result of multi-million pound investments over the past 24 months. We have a fantastic workforce and a car that could be one of the best.
“Honda are keen to help us try to preserve the team and fortunately we have some time to react. If this had happened closer to the season it would have been much more difficult. It's a fantastic opportunity for someone to step into what will be a very competitive team next year. The facilities here are amongst the best in Formula One, the workforce is definitely one of the best in Formula One and we have a great car in progress for next year. We have aspirations to be at the front of the grid and we want to find investors who have the same ambitions.
“I would like to thank the staff here at Brackley for a fantastic demonstration of courage and fortitude today despite difficult circumstances. I am proud to be part of this team.”
Jenson Button
“As you can imagine, I was totally shocked by yesterday’s news. The process of absorbing it is one that will continue for some days to come, so the only focus today was being here at Brackley to return the support I have counted on throughout our past six years together. I am sure I will have more to say in the coming days but today is about the people I consider my team - and what a fantastic group of people they are.”
They have a car almost ready, designed by Ross Brown, which means it could be one of the fastest car on the grid. Honda will support them till March; hopefully some one will step in and buy the team.
Following the statement made by Takeo Fukui, President of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. in Tokyo today, members of the senior management and Jenson Button have responded with great optimism:
Nick Fry
“Despite the obvious disappointment that we all felt on hearing the news from Honda Motor Co. we do understand that this decision was one which they felt they had to take in light of the current global economic situation and the resulting impact on the worldwide automobile market.
“Last night’s meeting with the staff was difficult for everyone but judging by what we have seen here in Brackley today, that has quickly given rise to a steely determination. The directors of the Honda Racing F1 Team now intend to make every effort possible to secure the future of the team and we know we can count on the continued support and fighting spirit of the great team of people we have here in Brackley. Our staff have been a credit to themselves, to our team and to Formula One over the past 24 hours and I would like to take this opportunity to say how proud we are of them today.
“The RA109, our 2009 F1 contender, is our first car developed under the technical leadership of Ross Brawn. With the resources Ross has at his disposal and confirmation that Honda will provide the necessary support to complete the car in time for the first race in Melbourne, I am sure that we can still have a very successful 2009 season if a new owner can be found. One new major sponsor is already signed for 2009 and discussions are well advanced with others. Offers of support from around the world have been generous and I’m sure that with that kind of goodwill towards the team we have a good chance of competing even in this difficult economic situation.
“We have had a number of potentially suitable investors approach us since the news broke and we now we want to make sure that we have the right owner for the team to enable to us to continue at the right level.
“There is no doubt in my mind that Formula One can have a good future and that this team can be part of it. The sport, including FOTA, the FIA and FOM, is already well down the road of ensuring a more sustainable existence and I’m sure that this work will continue to accelerate in the coming weeks, making our team a very good investment for the right buyer.”
Ross Brawn
“Our information is that, relative to the other teams, we have a very strong car in development here at Brackley and we will continue to develop the RA109 to ensure a strong start to 2009 and improvement through the season.
“This is a unique opportunity. The facilities we have here are among the best in the sport as a result of multi-million pound investments over the past 24 months. We have a fantastic workforce and a car that could be one of the best.
“Honda are keen to help us try to preserve the team and fortunately we have some time to react. If this had happened closer to the season it would have been much more difficult. It's a fantastic opportunity for someone to step into what will be a very competitive team next year. The facilities here are amongst the best in Formula One, the workforce is definitely one of the best in Formula One and we have a great car in progress for next year. We have aspirations to be at the front of the grid and we want to find investors who have the same ambitions.
“I would like to thank the staff here at Brackley for a fantastic demonstration of courage and fortitude today despite difficult circumstances. I am proud to be part of this team.”
Jenson Button
“As you can imagine, I was totally shocked by yesterday’s news. The process of absorbing it is one that will continue for some days to come, so the only focus today was being here at Brackley to return the support I have counted on throughout our past six years together. I am sure I will have more to say in the coming days but today is about the people I consider my team - and what a fantastic group of people they are.”
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Honda won many fans over because the REAL Honda Company was a RACING company which sold cars so that they could keep on racing and winning. Other car companies go racing so that they can sell more cars. Now Honda is just a company that sells cars.
Steve
Steve
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