Honda should cancel production of any upcoming "supercar"

[Osiris_x11]

tastes like chicken?

France is already at nuclear saturation. This is why during that heat wave 2 summers ago, 3000 frogs died. Imagine that. They lost as many people as we did on 9/11 to a HEAT WAVE.

A lot of human beings died too and you're worried about the frogs? Real nice.

I believe he/she (liftshard) is implying frogs = French citizens. His reference is to the French pensioners/retiree's who died due to heat-related complications manisfesting from a heat-wave during that timeframe.

You took his/her quote out of context (perhaps not reading the following sentence)!

 

[heySkippy]

Re: tastes like chicken?

I believe he/she (liftshard) is implying frogs = French citizens.

Ya think?

There really needs to be a sarcasm emoticon.

 

[liftshard]

Do you know which companies are the worst CAFE violators - Porsche is #3, MB is #2 and BMW is #1. In 2004 BMW paid the EPA a record of $42m in fines for exceeding CAFE - the largest all-time fine. Chrysler has not been fined for CAFE violations since 2000.

Do you know WHY this is? The domestics do not violate CAFE because they keep models on their floors that lose them money.

The EPA website lists all 2005 model year vehicles sold in the US - some 1,121 model and engine combination. 83 are classified as gas guzzlers - 1 is a Dodge, 1 is a Ford and 5 are GM (but include the Caddy armoured car and the Caddy funeral hearse). The remainder are European brands.

HAHAHAHA. Yes, the only true gas guzzlers are Lamborghinis. Right. The Durango is a freakin gas guzzler. Just because the EPA isn't fining them for getting 12mpg, doesn't mean they aren't guilty as charged. The whole EPA mileage rating and CAFE are a bit of a joke to begin with.

Honda also sells trucks and SUVs - year to date Honda sold 324,000 trucks versus 387,000 cars.

If you consider CR-Vs trucks...this is a huge stretch. And, nohow did they move Pilots and MDXs in those types of quantities. You stretch to call what Honda sells "trucks." But, at any rate, they're guilty too. The Civic gets worse mileage now than 15 years ago.

Finally, note that Chrysler is proping up MB and Daimler today, not the other way around. In the first half of 2005, MB lost $1.1b on $28b of sales while Chrysler made nearly $1b on $31b of sales.

After MB revamped their mgmt and gave them some platforms to work with. Dodge also has an INCREDIBLY profitable truck line, w/ Jeep, remember? DB only BOUGHT this company for those.

Clearly, the Japanese car companies are the most green - no GG vehicles. But the European companies - as a group - are by far the worst offenders, much, much worse than the domestics.

Wrong. They do not SELL S280s and CLK200s here because nobody would BUY them. It is cheaper for them to VIOLATE than to actually meet the guidelines. European models have, BY FAR, smaller engines across the board. Plus a lot of diesels. There are so many more diesels in Europe than here that it's not funny. So, your post is what is clouded with half-truths. The European makers are certainly capable and DO produce fuel-efficient models. They just do not have them here in the NA market where nobody would buy them. That GM and Ford and Dodge don't violate CAFE is essentially a fraud. CAFE, across the board, is a joke and unenforced.

Everyone seems to be calmed down here now.
so anyway if you really want to understand what is going on with the oil crisis read this book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=books&n=507846

it has all the information liftshard is sharing without the political agenda.

What political agenda? You know what Twilight in the Desert's main thesis is? That Saudi Arabia has hit PEAK OIL. You know, that thing you argue makes no difference or doesn't exist? SA is just world #1 producer right now. They have also provided all the slack production in the world for some time now. However, besides them, Kuwait, and maybe UAE, there is no nation not in decline or at capacity. World oil production is operating flat-out right now. Any supply disruption will cause price spikes, but the general trend is up, up, up.

This is why a V10 supercar makes no sense for Honda. The economic climate will simply not make it viable. Honda needs to make investments that pay out, not lose money (again).

The energy generated from dynamic braking in diesel electric locomotives is not stored in batteries. Rather it is dissipated in large resistor arrays and the resulting heat is discharged into the atmosphere.

In some it is, or is used for cogeneration or returned to the grid if the train has an overhead AC wire. These types of systems are mostly used in Europe, where electric train networks are far more common.

 

[H-carWizKid]

The only problem with being right all the time is dealing with the people who disagree. Eh Liftshard?

I could spend all day picking apart your utopia, but the funny thing is, it isn't utopia at all. It is just the constant defense of a pessimistic viewpoint founded only in allegorical diatribe. Which is to suggest that you are alluding to a socialist reformed state in the hopes of greater good, at fault of incompletely exploring consequences faced by societies based upon those principles.

All this is to suggest that you please provide for myself, and our fellow posters an example of a perfect society based upon the leftist ideals of socialism. To perfect the point, please include an example that hasn't led to the deaths of thousands, seemingly unending lines for basic needs, inadequate medical facilities, or a state run aristocracy that does not suffer the misery of the constituency. Please name the place that runs like that. I am very interested in relocation.

Then again...I think I lived there once already- oh yes, it was MY PARENTS HOUSE!

Mom and Dad managed to provide all that I needed- all that I had to do was follow the rules, and abide by the choices they made that were to the advantage of "my own good". (ie: wear a helmet, go to school, learn a work ethic, study...ect...) 18 yrs later I COULDN'T WAIT TO GET OUT. Even though it meant sacrificing the comforts of nurture.

At that time in my life I had a longing for liberty- the liberty to succeed, or perhaps to fail, but always the liberty of my own choice and the success or consequences resulted.

Such is the same with the basic human animal- we long for the freedom of choice, sometimes to our detriment. This is why "perfect" socialism fails in every experiment- it doesn't meet the specific needs of each individual it effects. Historically this dissent is muted by the socialist run "state", and historically it fails.

To oppose liberty is to promote oppression in one form or another, and people just don't like to be repressed. I don't know why- after all it is for their own good. (insert sarcasm here)

Fortunately for you, we live in a place where political agenda is a matter of personal choice, and while you are perfectly free to express your feelings- for the sake of the audience, and the purpose of the forum you might oblige that we may deal more directly with the prospect of a V-10 powered Honda Supercar, and it's viability for production.

regardless of Honda's choice, there will still be "gas guzzelers" on the road, the oil market will fluctuate with supply and demand, diesel electric trains will store and disperse energy in different and unexciting ways, Hawaii will price cap the wholesale of fuel to it's own detriment (a price cap would have to be unilateral to be effective, as it stands the wholesalers being capped in Hawaii will just sell their product elsewhere since demand is universal in this market. Hawaiians will feel the pain of an actual shortage, rather than a price fluctuation- watch it happen). France will still have to deal with 3000 dead citizens, Manufacturers will seek ways to undermine CAFE, we will all dream of a day when we don't have to commute in traffic, but Americans will still love their cars upto and into an economic crisis.

Honda cancelling this one car that one in 10000 Americans will be able to afford, and only a few of those will actually buy will not in anyway solve the troubles mentioned above, even if each was addressed at least once within this thread.

The people will want what they want. Big assed SUV's- they build them because THEY CAN SELL THEM! even with increased gas prices. Industry will produce what it can profit from. they do this with little moral consiousness because it is up to the public to demand, and the suppliers to supply. The public has the obligation to be moral right up until GM executives start marching us into showrooms at gunpoint to buy an H2.

When that happens we can hold them in greater responsibility for the things we do.

I vote we leave it to the Honda board of directors to decide what is economically viable for a company that brings in money on both front, and back ends. They have managed to keep the ship afloat this long, I am sure they are capable of running this course.

You can choose what to buy and what not to buy based upon your own priciples and beliefs

Of course- I understand, you disagree, and will continue to disagree until we all conceed to your viewpoint- ultimately what I will say is, That ain't gonna happen, so...

Welcome to our impass

Hope you enjoy your stay.

Philip

 

[Osiris_x11]

come again...?!?

Ya think?

There really needs to be a sarcasm emoticon.

I'm not sure if your original post implied sarcasm...

A lot of human beings died too and you're worried about the frogs? Real nice.

To me, it seemed like you actually thought the people who died and the frogs who died were the not the same entity, but rather that liftshard was actually saying frogs, as in amphibians, died from the heat.

 

[heySkippy]

Re: come again...?!?

I'm not sure if your original post implied sarcasm...

It either implied sarcasm or it implied that I'm an idiot. I choose sarcasm.

My point was liftshard's crocodile tears, bemoaning the loss of human life while in the same sentence delivering a slur upon the victims.

 

[zahntech]

Liftshards political agenda is obvious,but it seems that there is something much more important to him going on here, and that is his need to be the most knowledgeable,most outspoken,most longwinded,...



I had a friend that had to be the smartest and have the last word on everything ...after he found that he had no friends left and he was having difficulty at work he realized he needed to change some things, then life became much happier for him.

The electric trains that put power into the power grid in downhill slopes are just that "electric" there is no diesel engine involved at all. so as hard as it may be to accept, you are full of crap...but I'm sure you can find some blather to try and support your assertion...go for it I wouldn't want your world to crumble when people find out you don't know everything.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

In some it is, or is used for cogeneration or returned to the grid if the train has an overhead AC wire. These types of systems are mostly used in Europe, where electric train networks are far more common.

In time, other and better hybrids will be able to deliver on the promises. Diesel hybrid technology has been in locomotives for decades. They say "hell no" to wasting the kinetic energy in one of those 6000' long freight trains. As they slow or go downhill, they charge gigantic batteries which they can use to spare fuel for uphill and acceleration. It's really an old idea.

Your original assertion was that diesel electric locomotives stored their power in large batteries, not about purely electric locomotives shedding their regenerative energy back into the power grid. Apples and oranges.

The locomotives are diesel electrics for the same reason why tugboats and large dumptrucks are diesel electric. The large transmissions required do not scale well.

As for it being a really old idea, it was only in the past 3-4 years that they've really tried to cobble together a truly hybrid locomotive with engine + generator + battery. Some small US company tried selling one recently. GE, the worlds largest maker of locomotives, is still designing theirs.

-- Joe

 

[Osiris_x11]

toilette-combustion... the next big thing!

It either implied sarcasm or it implied that I'm an idiot. I choose sarcasm.

My point was liftshard's crocodile tears, bemoaning the loss of human life while in the same sentence delivering a slur upon the victims.

I got it Boss!

Thanks for the clarification... I think I'm reading too many threads in too many forums on too many sites!?! I'm giving myself a self-imposed time-out. . .

 

[liftcontrol]

This thread should be cancelled

 

[drew]

Folks, it is not about the cost of gasoline. For the rich it is about fashion, prestige and activisim.

I hang in an area where some of the richest people in the world live. Money is no object. It is now not COOL to burn gasoline in Malibu, Beverly Hills or Newport Beach.

The number of Prius' is incredible on the beach houses (on sand USD >$6M), every 3rd or 4th beach house now sports a Prius. The July 4th party I attended the high and mighty had at LEAST 40% of the attendants were driving a Prius, and they were doing it as a statement. That was their show car....I noticed a few people actually hid their p-cars and SUV's around the corner. The Prius' were stacked in front and they all recently completely detailed.

I followed two Lexus RX-XXXh into work yesterday. Several richer folks are have diesel VW's and H1's and are proudly displaying bio-diesel.

I suspect next there will be zero SUV's or gas guzzlers at the next local party I go to, I will be keeping count.

Clearly, gas guzzlers are out of fashion with the rich. This is not a small fringe of people doing this: it is a large percentage of richest and most influential that are doing this.

Honda would be a fool to do a V10 in this environment. They need to come up with the next tZero or some other alternative fuel car that can kick the crap out of a gas powered car. It can be done, they should do it and it would be a real hit with the folks who could afford it.

And/Or re-do what they did with the NSX, just package it up different--- an efficient V6 that has plenty of power to weight ratio. The NSX is and will continue to be ahead of its time. The HSC will be perfect in the world of $70-$100 per barrel of oil.

Drew

 

[queenlives]

so, any of you pansies figure out what's happening with the new honda "supercar"?

:biggrin:


jussssst kidding... seems we all got a bit off thread - or did we?

anyway, let's all keep our eyes peeled for the next gen nsx/whatever.

 

[liftshard]

The only problem with being right all the time is dealing with the people who disagree. Eh Liftshard?

I could spend all day picking apart your utopia, but the funny thing is, it isn't utopia at all. It is just the constant defense of a pessimistic viewpoint founded only in allegorical diatribe. Which is to suggest that you are alluding to a socialist reformed state in the hopes of greater good, at fault of incompletely exploring consequences faced by societies based upon those principles.

All this is to suggest that you please provide for myself, and our fellow posters an example of a perfect society based upon the leftist ideals of socialism. To perfect the point, please include an example that hasn't led to the deaths of thousands, seemingly unending lines for basic needs, inadequate medical facilities, or a state run aristocracy that does not suffer the misery of the constituency. Please name the place that runs like that. I am very interested in relocation.

What in HOLY HELL are you talking about?!?!?!? This IS already a socialist country, buddy. We have SOCIAL security, Medicare, Welfare, Food stamps, and freebies out the YIN YANG for Katrina survivors. What makes me laugh hardest is people who STILL believe that the United States ISN'T a socialist country. More than HALF of our national budget EVERY YEAR goes to social programs. Criminy. Wake up.

To oppose liberty is to promote oppression in one form or another, and people just don't like to be repressed. I don't know why- after all it is for their own good. (insert sarcasm here)

oh...my...god. You are going to lecture ME on "liberty"? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Drive 102 on your way to work, in the HOV lane, with no sticker on your windshield and no license plate. Tear up your driver's license and unbuckle your seatbelt. YEARN FOR FREEDOM, MY BOY! FIGHT THE MACHINE!

Honda cancelling this one car that one in 10000 Americans will be able to afford, and only a few of those will actually buy will not in anyway solve the troubles mentioned above, even if each was addressed at least once within this thread.

Right here we have the difference between the smart and the dumb. The smart look at a supercar as a technological INVESTMENT and try to think of how it can trickle down goodies into other profitable machines. No Honda supercar will ever MAKE A RETURN on the investment. The NSX was ambitious but unsuccessful. The dumb, on the other hand, just look at it as a car and say, "whoa, dude, that's cool." And, they end up broke.

I want Honda to produce a car that has VIABLE, RETURN GENERATING technology for its entire fleet GIVEN environmental factors facing all the world.

Of course- I understand, you disagree, and will continue to disagree until we all conceed to your viewpoint- ultimately what I will say is, That ain't gonna happen, so...

When you finally actually figure out what it is that I AM saying, then, you may disagree with me. The internet is great, ain't it? It allows people to INVENT whatever they want the other guy to say and then rail against it. We call this "strawman argument." And, you have erected a FIELD full of them so you can knock them down.

 

[liftshard]

I don't get it - cheap gas in the 90's was the reason lots of people bought Ferraris?

YES!

Because OIL, the thing that causeth to become, is the FUNDAMENAL, underlying cost of MANUFACTURING and production! The CONDITIONS CAUSED by cheap oil PERMITTED a huge growth in the noveau riche.

Every single thing around is made w/ oil. Oil makes things move, lifts heavy objects against the force of gravity, and permits the reconfiguration of matter into useful items. Cheap oil=explosions of new wealth=lots of production growth.

I had a friend that had to be the smartest and have the last word on everything ...after he found that he had no friends left and he was having difficulty at work he realized he needed to change some things, then life became much happier for him.

I had a friend who was really dumb and argumentative. Eventually, I just stopped returning his phone calls.

The electric trains that put power into the power grid in downhill slopes are just that "electric" there is no diesel engine involved at all. so as hard as it may be to accept, you are full of crap...but I'm sure you can find some blather to try and support your assertion...

In fact, such "blather" immediately follows your post, by somebody else. And the technology I spoke of really is old. I saw it on TV years ago.

 

[heySkippy]

When you finally actually figure out what it is that I AM saying, then, you may disagree with me.

I know this is going to be a shock to your system, but none of us need your permission to disagree with you.

 

[ajnsx]

And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals.

Not entirely true, South Australia was populated by free settlers. We knew a good thing when we saw it. :wink:

As for petrol, i'd push my car around the block if i had too. :biggrin:

 

[H-carWizKid]

When you finally actually figure out what it is that I AM saying, then, you may disagree with me. The internet is great, ain't it? It allows people to INVENT whatever they want the other guy to say and then rail against it. We call this "strawman argument." And, you have erected a FIELD full of them so you can knock them down.

Of course- your wrong. Still wrong, frequently wrong. Wrong Wrong Wrong.

Observations come from more than just this one thread. I am not the only one here who has read political rhetoric in your posts.

So much for strawmen.

While we may have social programs here in the states, they are programs, not a form of government.

There is a difference.

Once again- you have only continued defending your pessimistic quasi- socialist viewpoint. The internet is good for that too eh?

Notice you aren't gathering any followers?

Please continue to prove my point if you wish.

As for the reasoning behind a Supercar-

there is no reason to a supercar.

Those folks who go out and buy economy cars with 100k 10yr warranties are using reason. The people stepping onto public transport are using reason. To the reasonable person a car is just an appliance.

People who are buying 80-150k automobiles are not doing so within the limits of reason- in fact, they are being totally UNREASONABLE! Why? Because it is what they want. That is what a luxury item is- something you want- something you desire, not something you need- and not something you "should have" it is some thing you WANT TO GET,

And the same emotion applies to the builders of these machines.

Honda will build this because they WANT to build it, they want to prove they can do it better, maybe cleaner, or more efficient, or more reliable than the other builders of supercars.

We don't even know what it IS yet, and your pessimism wants to kill it.

It may demonstrate a technology we haven't thought of here.

Honda has defied reason before- Look in the garage.

It probably wasn't "logical" to build the NSX out of Aluminum- but they did.
It was a departure from Honda's manufacturing process to build the damn thing by hand- but they did.
It defied reason that they continued to build the car for 15yrs without truly significant change, long after the benchmark they set was surpassed- but they did.

Why?

THEY WANTED TO.

Not every decision is "practical". Deviating from building econobox's to build a few cars that have passion certainly isn't practical- but that is why we like Honda isn't it? Maybe why we love the NSX- because it is a little bit of insanity, an exotic car made reliable when exotic cars were anything but-
The NSX gave Honda a personality as a company that could build "a better exotic."

Maybe it helped a few people step over the line as well- to be a little "unreasonable" and in life, that can be the difference.

So keep on spitting pessimistic rhetoric at us- but I know I still won't change my mind.

I think Honda should build it if they want to.

Lets see what happens this time.

 

[9/11-RSX]

Cost of fuel is in no way a factor when buying a $100,000 car.

Would it be cooler if it got decent MPG? Yes. Some folks would enjoy the moral superiority of a cool, fast, environmentally concious car--me being one of them.

Lambos get like 10 MPG, and nobody cares in the least, or ever will.

Honda values MPG and clean exhaust. I'm sure their offering will be best in its class, even if it is a class with extremly low standards.

 

[docjohn]

Greater than half of the US GNP goes to social programs :frown: You wanna show us were on earth you got that from

 

[zahntech]

Liftshard said in an earlyer post;

"The problem is that we live in an unabashedly capitalist system, not a purely socialist one"

Then he says;

"What in HOLY HELL are you talking about?!?!?!? This IS already a socialist country,"

He sounds confused :frown: and full of crap :smile:

 

[Timbo]

Greater than half of the US GNP goes to social programs :frown: You wanna show us were on earth you got that from

He said national budget, not GNP. Meaning, in this context, federal gov't spending.

This site claims 53% went to social programs in 1999 (up from 29% in 1962).

This site claims 58% went to social programs in 2004.

If you want exact numbers, try Info Please

To call the USA "socialist" is way off base, but indeed the combo of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other entitlements is immense. And it is only getting bigger, and the effects this will have re: national debt will be devastating if something is not done to rein in all the spending.

 

[zahntech]

"I had a friend who was really dumb and argumentative. Eventually, I just stopped returning his phone calls."

lets take a poll!, who is the most argumentative member in this thread? I vote ...liftshard

anybody else up for voting?

 

[01blacks4]

Uh...buy a more fuel-efficient car?

And, yeah, people can "afford" the gas. But, they don't want to. As I said before, they don't think rationally like that. People could afford the gas in 1974, but they decided not to afford it on a big Dodge guzzler and instead buy a fuel-efficient Honda

The difference here is that the dodge was getting 8-12 miles a gallon!!! and the Honda 20-25 that’s double, these days even the Denali XL I drive w/ 22 inch wheels and a big engine gets 20 mpg, yeah maybe not when I drive it like I stole it but when driven normal.

I agree you will see some slow down but you are acting like this is a new problem. Fuel has always been 5 buck a gallon in Europe....and England, even Japan has always paid way more that we have. It doesn’t seem to make a difference there (the cars are smaller because most roads where built for a horse carriage, not fuel pricing!)

I really don’t think that the fuel pricing will have as much to do with the slow down of HP vehicles. There has been a trend in vehicles for years not to either be the biggest baddest or the smallest cheapest, mid level everything is going away, even jobs and management, food/restaurants, car/trucks.

This is just my .02, but being that I am somewhat involved in the auto industry and work with some manufactures on vehicles YEARS before they are seen, this is how I think it is going.

 

[liftshard]

Of course- your wrong. Still wrong, frequently wrong. Wrong Wrong Wrong.
While we may have social programs here in the states, they are programs, not a form of government.

LOL. They are programs in China, too. Just "programs." Not a "form" of government. We have regulations for every aspect of your damned LIFE here and spend half our annual money on OUTRIGHT socialist programs. Social Security is the world's LARGEST wealth-redistribution scheme.

There is a difference.

Only in the minds of those without the ability to see what things ARE rather than what they'd have them be.

Once again- you have only continued defending your pessimistic quasi- socialist viewpoint. The internet is good for that too eh?

Now it's "quasi-" I see we are making progress. There may be hope for you yet. At what point have I ever suggested that we should have socialism, dork? I mean, quote it for me, please.

Notice you aren't gathering any followers?

Followers...for...what...? What crusade or movement do you suppose I am leading here? Your knee is jerking.

Those folks who go out and buy economy cars with 100k 10yr warranties are using reason. The people stepping onto public transport are using reason. To the reasonable person a car is just an appliance.

Bullsh!t. People buy what they can afford, most often on emotion. Supercars are bought on far more rational grounds by people who can usually AFFORD them.

Honda will build this because they WANT to build it, they want to prove they can do it better, maybe cleaner, or more efficient, or more reliable than the other builders of supercars.

And, a fool and his money are soon parted.

It probably wasn't "logical" to build the NSX out of Aluminum- but they did.
It was a departure from Honda's manufacturing process to build the damn thing by hand- but they did.
It defied reason that they continued to build the car for 15yrs without truly significant change, long after the benchmark they set was surpassed- but they did.

They lost $800million on it.

Maybe it helped a few people step over the line as well- to be a little "unreasonable" and in life, that can be the difference.

Yes. It's a major difference between the two of us, for example.

So keep on spitting pessimistic rhetoric at us- but I know I still won't change my mind.

Of course not. I spit REALITY. If you choose to call that pessimism because the future holds negative things, fine. Doesn't matter to me.

 

[liftshard]

Cost of fuel is in no way a factor when buying a $100,000 car.
Would it be cooler if it got decent MPG? Yes. Some folks would enjoy the moral superiority of a cool, fast, environmentally concious car--me being one of them.
Lambos get like 10 MPG, and nobody cares in the least, or ever will.

<sigh>

Yes, they will care. The cost of production of the Lambo will double. Real wages slide and wealth dissipates due to the higher cost to move things around. Lambos are made of steel and aluminum, which require energy to mine, refine, and smelt. These metals must be transported in vessels made using energy, themselves using energy to move. Then, more energy is required to assemble the freakin Lambo.

So, if we double the cost of energy, we double the cost of about everything. It's not just at the fking gas tank. It's the cost to run the pumps which bring water to your goddamned HOUSE. The cost to keep the lights on at the courthouse. The cost to DO things.

Honda's car should be a reduced-cost-of-manufacture vehicle, with lower cost to make and lower cost to operate. And, high performance would be nice too.

The difference here is that the dodge was getting 8-12 miles a gallon!!! and the Honda 20-25 that’s double, these days even the Denali XL I drive w/ 22 inch wheels and a big engine gets 20 mpg, yeah maybe not when I drive it like I stole it but when driven normal.

Denali XLs get nowhere NEAR 20mpg. Puhleaze.

To call the USA "socialist" is way off base, but indeed the combo of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and other entitlements is immense. And it is only getting bigger, and the effects this will have re: national debt will be devastating if something is not done to rein in all the spending.

What, then, WOULD one call such programs of government redistribution of wealth, goverment controlled health care, government prescription drug programs, etc.? Nobody WANTS to call them what they ARE, SOCIALISM, because they don't like how that sounds.

Well, sorry, capitalism gave us the 20s. Unions enforcing corporate socialism gave us the middle class. Capitalism by itself leads to wage slavery.

But, to call a nation which devotes more than half its gov't spending to SOCIALIST programs, "not socialist" is a bit absurd.