HELP!! To redline or not to redline???

[nsxtasy]

The NSX Club already faced that dilemma following "spirited" group drives at the first few NSXPOs. Between the complaints from some members who were not comfortable driving as fast as others in the group, and the concern over the legal and financial liability the club could face in the event of a serious accident, the need to keep group drives at reasonable speeds (that of most traffic on the road) became a "no brainer".

If your group drives are not held by an organized club, the organizers, as well as all the participants, could be held personally liable in the event of an accident. While that is always the case, any condoning of excessive speeds, either explicit or implied, could be considered negligence in a court of law. That's something to consider VERY seriously.

 

[JaguarXJ6]

Hard acceleration and/or someone falling behind does not automatically mean the group or individuals are breaking the law. I understand your context, but lets not make assumptions.

As a group, its everyone's responsibility to be clear on the speed that will be travelled, objecting before and not after.

I've been a part of groups in the past where a small group (sometimes I was one of these, sometimes not) that would go purposely slow so we could speed and catch up while the rest of the group in front travelled at a law abiding casual pace.

There's a difference between redlining up to the legal limit and staying at it or continuing to do so beyond it.

I accepted my responsibility as a driver to determine what kind of driving style the group I was joining would have and what I was comfortable doing. In my opinion, you don't deserve to drive if you don't do this before you put the key into the ignition.

Know what your getting into. ASK THE QUESTIONS.

Example: An XKR came out to play with our group on a Sat informal drive with 8 other cars. We're on the road out to Filmore during a day filled with incliment weather. We alerted everyone two days prior it was going to rain the whole weekend. The XKR had very bald rear tires. He couldn't hold traction. It was the XKR driver's responsibility, not ours, to make sure his car was mechanically ready for the trip. He volunteered to turn back because he couldn't keep up with us, and we were going slower as a group than the rest of traffic.

Usually a national club will provide insurance as part of sanctioning an event. Non-sanctioned means its on your own individual heads.

Just know what your getting into. Thats not too difficult. Aggressive driving does not mean you automatically belong on a track either or imply your breaking the law.

Sunny

Edit: I'd need to be shown specific examples where if someone breaks the law, how I'm liable if I was not in control of the vehicle or a passenger who could influence the driver. Not gonna happen. If so, there's something wrong with the legal system.

[This message has been edited by JaguarXJ6 (edited 23 January 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

I agree that you need to all understand exactly what you're doing before you engage in such an activity, and that communication beforehand is needed. However, a few of the assumptions you make may not be valid.

Originally posted by JaguarXJ6:
Usually a national club will provide insurance as part of sanctioning an event. Non-sanctioned means its on your own individual heads.

The insurance that a national club holds is for the protection and benefit of the national club (in case it gets sued), not for the individual participants. And that's exactly why a group of individuals (who are not engaging in an activity held by a club which is a legal entity) may ALL incur personal liability if they organize for the purpose of driving in a way that a court would later determine is negligent.

Originally posted by JaguarXJ6:
I'd need to be shown specific examples where if someone breaks the law, how I'm liable if I was not in control of the vehicle or a passenger who could influence the driver.

If you organize the group of drivers, or if you are one of the drivers who, in his driving actions, is seen as engaging in dangerous behavior and thereby "inciting" other drivers to do the same, you could be held liable for the consequences that other drivers in the group may encounter. I am not a lawyer and I am not saying that there is nothing wrong with our legal system; I am simply stating what I believe to be the case when participating in such organized, pre-planned activities on public roads.

I'm sure the attorneys on this board would be happy to chime in.

 

[JaguarXJ6]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
The insurance that a national club holds is for the protection and benefit of the national club (in case it gets sued), not for the individual participants.

Ahhh, I see. I'm sorry to nitpick earlier.

The two Clubs I belong to (one in England, one locally) are both legal entities by themselves and part of a larger (national) one where that insurance is extended specifically for the individuals.

As such, we have to follow the letter of the law exactly. For example, one of the many directions in our rally last year called for 45 in a 35, which was protested, and immediately changed. We break the law, its on our heads.

I'd really like to know if I decide to speed up past the legal limit and someone follows me and wrecks, kills someone, etc if they or another can hold me liable. Seems to me like, someone wants to drag race, I participate, and I wreck, I point the finger at the other driver, they made me do it. Doesn't seem right. If I organize a group and I make it explicit we're going to break the law, then I can see getting hung for that.

Most of my aggressive driving is all on infrequently travelled highway in the boonies on our own time, unsanctioned and informal, where we're lucky to have a posted speed limit except the one for driving which we all supposed to abide by (at least in CA).

The other times, its to avoid something to get the hell out of the way, where braking won't do. Them little 305mm rotors don't stop 4200lbs and change very easily.

Thats where I get the most fun, not on a track. Lonely, beautiful, twisty mountain roads.

Sunny

 

[RSO 34]

Originally posted by JaguarXJ6:


I'd really like to know if I decide to speed up past the legal limit and someone follows me and wrecks, kills someone, etc if they or another can hold me liable. Seems to me like, someone wants to drag race, I participate, and I wreck, I point the finger at the other driver, they made me do it. Doesn't seem right. If I organize a group and I make it explicit we're going to break the law, then I can see getting hung for that.

If you participate in a drag race or similar activity you share in the potential criminal and civil penalties for that activity. It does not matter whether you are the car that crashed out or ran over the pedestrian, you may be held equally responsible for your participation.

For example, when that 911 pulls up next to you and revs the engine causing you to race him to the next light, if he wipes out 500 yards behind you or takes out a pedestrian crossing the road you may still be criminally and civilly liable even though you were not "directly" involved in the impact. Criminal prosections generally include ALL drivers (and even some passengers) involved in that scenario.

Additionally, most insurance policies have EXCLUSIONS for participation in drag racing or other "organized" speeding activities which may include group drives depending upon the intention and plans associated with those drives. That means that if you get into an "incident" in that race to the next light or during an organized "redline" drive, your insurance carrier may DISCLAIM coverage and leave your personal assets at risk when you get hit for that civil judgment.

Any insurance coverage maintained by the NSXCA applies only to that corporate entity and its officers in conducting NSXCA business but DOES NOT provide coverage for NSX owners/drivers/passengers at any time. You are solely responsible for having adequate coverage on your vehicle and have sole responsibility for ensuring that you do not engage in an activity that could result in a disclaimer.

Everyone should read the language contained in their policies to determine what activities would be exluded from their coverage. You cannot expect that the NSXCA will have insurance for you because it does not and will never be in a position to insure you.

The bottom line is to try to drive smart and save most of your "redlining" for track events (which may or may not be covered under your particular insurance policies). Nothing ruins a good "group country drive" like a group drive to the local courthouse.

Bob



[This message has been edited by RSO 34 (edited 24 January 2003).]

 

[BioBanker]

If I were you guys, I would put a qualifier on statements indicating that it is impossible to over-rev an NSX becuase it has a fuel cutoff.

Situations where you are in 6th, and want to downshift into 5th, but slide it into 3rd accidentally, or your in 5th, want to put it in 4th but end up in 2nd can cause catastrophic damage to your engine as the revs pick up before the fuel cutoff kills it.

At least a few S2000 owners have blown their engines doing this recently. Entirely because of driver effor, but the engines are toast nonetheless and are not covered under warranty. Does this happen to NSXs aswell?

 

[Soichiro]

>>I'd really like to know if I decide to speed up past the legal limit and someone follows me and wrecks <snip> if they or another can hold me liable.
Of course they can. If you're driving fast, recklessly or racing another vehicle you can be liable for all sorts of fun with handcuffs. If you initiate the action or respond to another's challenge you are part of the game. If an unrelated incident happens 2 miles behind you that's a different story.

>>Seems to me like, someone wants to drag race, I participate, and I wreck, I point the finger at the other driver, they made me do it.
If you participate in a race you are guilty of racing. Your motivation (they made me do it) doesn't matter.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by RSO 34:
Nothing ruins a good "group country drive" like a group drive to the local courthouse.

Or a car sitting in the ditch with body damage. As at least one of the members here can confirm.

And when that happens, everyone feels bad afterwards, not just the person with the damaged car.

Originally posted by SPA_S2000:
If I were you guys, I would put a qualifier on statements indicating that it is impossible to over-rev an NSX becuase it has a fuel cutoff.

I'm not sure anyone said that. But you are correct, SPA. The NSX is like the S2000 in this regard. The rev limiter will prevent overrevving while you are staying in a given gear. It is indeed possible to overrev the engine, and destroy it, by shifting into the wrong gear. That's why they call it a "money shift", and it will definitely ruin your day. It's often done when downshifting, and sometimes done when trying to upshift, but accidentally selecting the next lower gear instead of the next higher gear.

 

[Lud]

If anyone has ever done a group drive with more than a few cars, you will know that the cars in the front must go considerably below the speed limit a good bit of the time to prevent the cars in the back from having to haul ass to keep up.

That may not intuitively make sense at first, but it is the same phenomenon that makes a few people slowing down to rubberneck an accident turn into a full-blown traffic jam with thousands of cars crawling along or even stopped dead. It's also the same thing that causes many rear-end accidents at stop lights.

When the cars in the front slow down for any reason, there is chain reaction all the way back. Each car needs to slow down more rapidly because there is a delay in reaction time. By the end of the pack, people have to slow WAY down very abruptly.

Then when the front of the pack starts to accelerate again, there is more delay between each car. By the time the end of the pack is able to start accelerating, the front will be way off in the distance. So then the people in back have to accelerate very hard just to keep up with the pack.

This is why it's good to limit the size of the group, keep everyone spaced out, plan stopping points along the way for everyone to regroup, and have the poeple in the front go slower than they might otherwise need to. Radios are also very helpful.

Anyone who thinks they are legally safe as long as their car was not actually involved in an accident during a high-speed group drive they are participating in (or worse, one they helped organize or lead) is blissfully ignorant of the way the law works in the US... You could lose everything. Even if you don't lose in court, you still lost - ask RSO how many zeros you're likely to put on the check you write for legal services in that situation.

I was vocal to the point of pissing a bunch of people off about this with the NSX drives a couple years ago. I'm sorry I upset people, but I do not regret one bit pushing to reign in the group drives. The drives were actually well run and organized, but they were not working. I enjoy driving fast as much as anyone else, and yes, I was 4-wheel drifting and having a hell of a time on those drives myself. But some people were driving over their heads, losing control and wrecking their cars on public roads. I also witnessed some increadibly dangerous driving that by sheer luck did not result in very serious accidents. The wrecked cars were bad enough, but it was just a matter of time until the worst happened, and that is just not acceptable either legally or morally.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 24 January 2003).]

 

[Black Knight]

Wow...one night and lots of worthy points mentioned. That's why I love this forum. You always learn much more than you ask for.

I truly appreciate all the inputs everyone has given. This helps in reminding us once again the potential risks involved in a group drive event.

In a normal situation with our group drives, a line is formed so no side by side action is involved. Sometimes we do tend to get a little excited (who wouldn't at the sight of beautiful NSXs in front and in the rear mirror) and go beyond speed limits. However, we try our best to be courteous on public roads with other cars. On our normal drives (normally scenic routes with one lane traffic in the mountains or countryside), we are always considerate with other on road cars. We don't honk at slow cars ahead nor drive recklessly to gain attention.

Everyone's definition of "safe" driving limits will be different. Non-stock NSXs may handle turns at a higher speed and others may not (i.e. bald tires). Our goal is to keep everyone in the group together and enjoy the drive. Therefore, as long as everyone joins the group drives with a mind of courtesy and safety, I'm sure the "spirited" drive definition still holds.

I hope I didn't discourage anyone NSXers from future spirited drives.

------------------
'98 Blue NSX-T

 

[JaguarXJ6]

Thanks for clarifying those points for me.

As for blissfully ignorant, then yes. I'm completely honest, I didn't have a clue if I would be liable or not. I learned to drive in Germany, and did most of my driving in England only a couple short years ago.

I don't drive like that to warrant ever being in that situation. Being what the law is in the U.S., I wouldn't be surprised if my relatives wouldn't be held liable either.

Spirited, legal, and courteous, thats the way everyone has a majority of the fun and we all go home at the end of the day.

The NSX group is first group to actually drive with spirit and I'd like to continue to show up, since well, the stereotype of old mens/ladies cars does hold true for a majority of my Jag club members.

I've already started saving for my NSX

 

[RSO 34]

Originally posted by JaguarXJ6:

Being what the law is in the U.S., I wouldn't be surprised if my relatives wouldn't be held liable either.

As a little further FYI on American law, your relatives will be responsible if they are the titled/registered owners of the car you are driving. An owner is liable for an accident involving the driver of his/her vehicle if that driver is operating it with the owner's knowledge and consent.

In other words, if you give the keys for your NSX to your brother and he runs down your neighbor, you are just as liable for his accident and your insurance coverage will be looked to as well as, potentially, your personal assets. That scenario is not limited to your family because owner's liability attaches if you give the car to a friend (or even a stranger) as long as the car is being used with your knowledge and consent.

Another little legal tidbit involves potential "social host" dram shop liability where, for example, you host your local NSX club members at a party in your house. Many states now recognize "social host" liability to the extent that if you serve alcohol that "causes OR CONTRIBUTES" to another person's intoxication and that person gets into an accident, you may be held responsible for civil damages.

I emphasized "OR CONTRIBUTES" because you must be aware that if someone comes over to your party having become drunk somewhere else but has consumed, for example, one beer at your house then you "contributed" to his intoxication and liability may attach to you.

As Lud mentioned in passing, certain activities could result in you writing a hefty check for legal fees and damages. I would prefer to dispense a little free legal advice here to our members rather than have them contribute to my "tire fund" with their legal fees and then make the real money off of the Ferrari club members, so try to drive and act responsibly.

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Lud:
When the cars in the front slow down for any reason, there is chain reaction all the way back.

Someone coined the phrase "the inchworm effect" to describe this phenomenon, the way the spacing between cars spreads out and compresses. It's also like an accordion.

Originally posted by Lud:
But some people were driving over their heads, losing control and wrecking their cars on public roads.

I am only aware of one actual accident (involving a member of this forum at NSXPO 2000) and the damage to the car was very minor. This is not to minimize the potential danger of such drives, only to keep the record straight. The concerns - not only for the potential tragedy of any accidents, but also for the liability of the club, as well as the discomfort and unhappiness of some of the club members who participated on our drives - were, and are, legitimate.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by JaguarXJ6:
Being what the law is in the U.S., I wouldn't be surprised if my relatives wouldn't be held liable either.

I believe your relatives might be held liable only if they are in some way responsible for your actions. RSO 34 mentioned some of those ways, such as if the car belongs to them. I would guess that the parents of a minor might be held liable for his actions as a driver.

However, if you go out and do something wrong, I don't think your relatives can be held liable just because they're your relatives.

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I am only aware of one actual accident (involving a member of this forum at NSXPO 2000) and the damage to the car was very minor.

Since this thread was not necessarily about just club drives, I was referring to NSX group drives in general, not specifically to official club drives. Several cars have been wrecked during various NSX group drives - sometimes more than one car during the same event!

Sometimes non-NSXs have been involved like the S2000 that was totalled while tagging along with an NSX drive in the DC area a little while back, but the NSX guys can still end up in the same legal situation.

Others have spun off the road out of control but by pure luck did not hit anything and were OK once they were towed out of a ditch, like the car right behind me during the NSXPO 1999 drive.