Has anyone heard about cybernations "Gaurdian EI"

[RP-Motorsports]

I am thinking about selling their turbo kit (when ready), which will have a Gaurdian EI for engine management. It is supposed to be safer than a standalone, because unlike a standalone, where you can have 1 or two main settings, it actually tunes realtime constantly.

Anyone else here heard of any new info?

 

[Elite]

We installed one of their RSX turbo kits not long ago. Their was no way for us to make any changes and the thing ran very lean. They told us they have a new version coming out and not to worry about it and leave it alone. And that the car will run fine... for the customer to drive as he normally would(beat on it). We advised the owner not to beat on it at all, and just drive it home and wait for the new product. My experience with them is breif, but from talking to them on the phone a couple of times, they didn't to be all that knowledgable... FWIW.

 

[TampaBayNSX-R]

Beware. My personal observations with this company were very disconcerting. A very well known member of the community had a VERY bad experience that dragged out over several months. Caveat emptor and in your case possibly caveat venditor as well!

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[NetViper]

If safety is a primary concern, which it is, I would suggest not skimping on the engine management system. AEM seems like it does the job and wont add THAT much to the cost of the system. We have already seen what happens when the fuel management is not done correctly. I don't think anyone wants a repeat of that!

 

[suprhonda]

I have talked to lee about his new system. It is supposed to use a feedback system that will never let the car run leaner than 12-1 under boost. If it does run lean for any period of time it will shut down boost and go into "limp home mode". I don't know how good it will be but basicly, from what I understand is that it is a pigyback that controls larger injectors for all engine operations using smething similar to a S-AFC to fine tune. The ignition system is left alone to itself. In thery this is a good base start system.
If you want to fine tune a car you do it with spark and fuel. Usualy pre-programed systems are built on fairly safe levels. In other words with a tunable system you can make more power, safely, In the right hands.
I have also talked to Gerry from Autoworxs. He uses the Tec 3 on his cars. This uses a crank triger wheel for the ignition system whitch is much more accurate than the stock cam triger system as the cam triger system cannot take into account for t belt loads, strech, and wear. The end result is with a cam triger system, because it is not as exact you get spark scatter. (Ignition timeing changes with diferent loads and variables on the engine and can cause preignition) The crank system is much more accurat so you can push your timing curve for more power, Saftly, because you eliminate so many variables.
It is just are you willing to pay the extra 2gs, or do you risk it for a 10g repair!
Be nice to see some of lee's systems on some cars soon just to see if they hold up well. And hopefully they would b/c they are the cheeper alternative.

 

[sjs]

… It is supposed to be safer than a standalone, because unlike a standalone, where you can have 1 or two main settings, it actually tunes realtime constantly. …

I’m not sure what is meant by “1 or two main settings,” but standalones have maps of fuel vs. load and timing vs. load, just like the stock ECU except that they are fully programmable and extend into the boost range. They also have a bunch of trims for environment conditions etc. Altogether there are a dizzying number of adjustments for fine tuning an engine. That can be good or bad depending on your perspective.

Constant real-time tuning can only mean that they are effectively running full-time closed-loop mode. On the surface that’s the holy grail for tuning, but I am extremely skeptical that they can pull it off. Technically, other products including the AEM and Motec can do this, but you won’t find people using the feature on boosted engines because it still isn’t good enough to trust. Having experimented with it myself I found that things just happen too darn fast for the sensors and ECU to maintain the desired mixture. And even if you have fast enough processor and sensors, I don’t want to rely too heavily on a wideband to remain adequately calibrated for a long period of time. Even when you try closed-loop at high loads you always start with base maps as good as you can possibly get them, then tightly control the maximum range of adjustment that the circuit can provide. If their system works only from the stock maps as their base then I’m even less likely to trust it. (stock maps don’t provide for any boost of course, so they must be adjusting the MAP signal ala SS/BBSC.)

We installed one of their RSX turbo kits not long ago. Their was no way for us to make any changes and the thing ran very lean. They told us they have a new version coming out and not to worry about it and leave it alone. And that the car will run fine... for the customer to drive as he normally would(beat on it). We advised the owner not to beat on it at all, and just drive it home and wait for the new product. My experience with them is breif, but from talking to them on the phone a couple of times, they didn't to be all that knowledgable... FWIW.

If I got that sort of response from them regarding my NSX I would pack their crap in a box and send it back to them.

… The ignition system is left alone to itself. In thery this is a good base start system. ...

How’s that? Actually a bad idea at anything over about 5psi, and less than ideal even below that.

I have also talked to Gerry from Autoworxs. He uses the Tec 3 on his cars. This uses a crank triger wheel for the ignition system whitch is much more accurate than the stock cam triger system as the cam triger system cannot take into account for t belt loads, strech, and wear. The end result is with a cam triger system, because it is not as exact you get spark scatter. (Ignition timeing changes with diferent loads and variables on the engine and can cause preignition) The crank system is much more accurat so you can push your timing curve for more power, ...

The advantage is way over-stated. Sure, crank fire is better, but the difference is small and not particularly significant unless you are tuning right to the edge, which is silly on a street car to begin with. That said, I wouldn’t call it a waste of money for those not concerned with what it costs. But no reason to buy the Tec3 for that, the AEM can use it as well.

 

[suprhonda]

How’s that? Actually a bad idea at anything over about 5psi, and less than ideal even below that.

The point is the Guardian EI system is probabley an attemt at a one step up idea from an FMU. It contorls fuel and not spark for FI That is not to say it is the best way, It just means they use a rich fuel system to cool cyl temps to try to stop pre ignition. The difference is it learns from the o2 sensor all the time, if it is placed right and functioning right. An FMU can only compensate for the boost it "see's". for more info go to http://www.cybernationmotorsports.com/ and go onto the forum, they have an explination of the system in the forum under Guardian EI

The AEM is a good system for steet vehicles I am just noteing that the tec 3 is better for spark curve. Anyone who whould like to upgrade for more performnce in the future may just wan't to start with a crank fired ign.

It All comes down to money. You want to know what is cheep and can work go with the Guardian EI, But it may not be good to you forever. ($500 aprox)

The AEM or similar products are very good tuneable systems that also have feedback self learn systems and carry a good history of reliability and safety in the right hands. This is probably a good choice for most systems you install b/c they are relitivly easy to use and are fairly cost effective in terms of labor and base price. They come "plug and play" for the nsx. ($2000) aprox
see http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp for details

Crank triggered systems are posibly the best but do take more work to set up and they have a higher price tag plus labor to install the triger ect. ($2600-$2800 aprox) They to have feedback self learning programs so can adust and protect accordingly. see
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/tec3.html for details

 

[KGP]

Welcome to nsxprime, suprhonda. Since you are offering us NSX FI enthusiasts definative advice, perhaps you can share with us your first hand experience in forced induction of NSX's?

 

[sjs]

...Crank triggered systems are posibly the best but do take more work to set up and they have a higher price tag plus labor to install the triger ect. ($2600-$2800 aprox) They to have feedback self learning programs so can adust and protect accordingly. see
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products/tec3.html for details

As you know, crank-fire vs Cam-fire is only one TINY aspect of the total ECU functionality. There are many FAR more important differences between Tec3, AEM, Motec, etc. I'm not pushing AEM as the "best" by any means, but I would rate it above the Tec3 in many ways and as I said, it too can use crank-fire if you prefer to go that route.

I'm just trying to make sure people don't take your words to mean that the inflexibility of the Tec3 requiring crank-fire makes it a better choice than the far more flexible and less costly AEM.

And don't believe everything you read. The self-learn and full-time closed-loop are still not ready for prime time when working with fast cars and high RPM engines, they simply blow through the map cells too fast.

 

[suprhonda]

Hello Thank you for the welcome.

I have really never posted here before and I am definetly not trying to step on any toes. My experiance as far as nsx FI is fairly limited. I hope soon it will be quite extensive. I have been doing a lot of research on five systems recently and this is what I am basing my post on. My post is not to say that any system is way better than the other. I am just shareing some of my research with someone who asked where they should look. I base the post off of what I have seen read and heard from people that I have talked to in the nsx FI service industry. I am trying to find and put together a system myself.
There are way more systems out then tec 3, aem, motech, and Gardian I was just focusing on 3 ways of engine management currently avalable.
I am well trained in the theory of FI and have worked on a number of systems But not so much in the nsx area. I have worked soley on acura and honda products for sometime and do know my way around them very well as they all use similar systems and Enginering practices.
I take huge pride in my work and do what I do b/c I love it. I see a lot of bad aftermarket installations of many vehicle systems and so I make it my bissiness to not add to this mess, so my pride shows through to my work as I am very meticulous.(excuse my spelling)
I hope to be a positive aspect to NSX prime and please let me know if anything I say is not corect b/c I see every constructive critisism as a positive way to learn. Just as sjs corected my first post.

Suprhonda