Hagerty Valuation Opinions

[docboy]

As I'm on the hunt for a NSX, hagerty seems to be the consensus on gauging how much a car is worth.

On hagerty's website, it gives the car a value and a "condition:"

#1 vehicles are the best in the world. The visual image is of the best vehicle, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the vehicle has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted. The one word description for #1 vehicles is "concours."

#2 vehicles could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 vehicles that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and finishes will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would. The one word description for #2 vehicles is "excellent."
#3 vehicles could possess some, but not all of the issues of a #4 vehicle, but they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior where applicable. #3 vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 vehicle.
#4 vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present. A #4 vehicle can also be a deteriorated restoration. "Fair" is the one word that describes a #4 vehicle.



I'm going to assume #1 is a garage queen. Very low mileage, rarely driven, say just a few thousand miles total.

What about 2, 3, 4? How would you describe 2, 3, or 4 in "real life?" What about mileage? How does one factor mileage into the equation when determining what the NSX's fair market value is? Should one use Hargerty? KBB?

For example, there's a 1998 NSX 6MT w/60,000 miles I'm considering. Obviously it's been driven and seems maintained, but is it a 2? 3?

Granted a price is what someone is willing to pay for under non stress conditions...

 

[docjohn]

I think the grading system is used when you can actually view the car...that said most drivers you find for sale will be 3-4

 

[BamaFan]

Agreed. Most of us who really care for our cars but drive them regularly have cars that would best be described as "condition 3".

Sellers will typically over-value their cars by one condition class.

 

[neuronbob]

Yup, to be a #1 or #2 you have to basically not drive your car, and with a NSX, that's no fun, is it?

 

[docboy]

Agreed. Most of us who really care for our cars but drive them regularly have cars that would best be described as "condition 3".

Sellers will typically over-value their cars by one condition class.

Good to note.

I'm starting to see there are a few sellers who have over-valued their cars by almost two classes.

 

[BATMANs]

I heard Grundy has no mileage limit.

 

[blue_myriddn]

I look at there 1, 2, 3, 4 designations with a bit of perspective for the vehicle being considered. An NSX in general will be better cared for and have lower mileage that other passenger cars or even other performance cars that are a bit less rare (Corvettes, 300zs, etc). They will tend to have more mileage than other exotics such as Ferraris. With that in mind,


Level 1 NSX:
Original paint, less than 20k miles, 1-3 owners, spotless interior, all original, no accident history, full ownership and maintenance documentation.

Level 2 NSX:
Original paint and/or minimal touch up. No accident history. Under 60,000 miles. 1-5 owners. All maintenance complete. Clean interior. Mostly original. Detailed ownership and maintenance documentation.

Level 3 NSX:
Original paint and/or very high level repaint. Minimal to no accident history. Under 150,000 miles. 1-7 owners. Minor maintenance may be required. Some visible wear and tear. Likely to have been modified, original parts may or may not be included. Basic history/maintenance documented with few or no mysteries.

Level 4 NSX:
Everything else.

Obviously there is wiggle room in those points. Fewer owners would get you closer to 2, etc. etc. Trying to fit a NSX in to a pure 2 & 3 is unlikely, you will likely be viewing a car as a 2.6 or a 2.2 for example and I would then just scale the price accordingly. For example a 2001 NSX Value 2 is currently at $66,200 and a Value 3 is at $57,500 - a difference of $8700. I would put the $3000 of that value in 2.9-2.5 and the remaining $5700 in the 2.4-2.1. and figure accordingly. Then again, I have a minor in statistics, so I may be way over nerding this.

p.s. Hagerty upgraded their website and it is VERY nice!

 

[Yinzer]

Level 1 NSX:
Original paint, less than 20k miles, 1-3 owners, spotless interior, all original, no accident history, full ownership and maintenance documentation.

That would mean I'm less than 200 miles away from aging into an over-the-hill former beauty queen run-of-the-mill Level 2, dangit. Would submersing mine in a swimming pool of Cosmoline after getting Ferris Bueller to help jack up my car and run it backwards for twenty tankfuls help stop the hands of time?

Yup, to be a #1 or #2 you have to basically not drive your car, and with a NSX, that's no fun, is it?

Too true. I think the reverse of Hagerty's scale should be considered: 4's have the most hands-on fun and 1's maybe have the least. The thing with owning a 1 is that you at least gain a few guilt-free hours a week to light your Cuban cigars with some of the fat stacks of $100's you're sitting on, instead of spending time driving.

 

[ozone]

What's up with all the crazy eBay listings? Insane pricing although many seem to be very fine examples.

 

[neuronbob]

Holy wow, Hagerty values have spiked for my 1999 T since purchase two months ago. Mine is a probably a 3+ and the values have passed what I paid already.

I wouldn't want to be in the market for a 1991, though. Prices for those have gone through the roof.

 

[blue_myriddn]

I wouldn't want to be in the market for a 1991, though. Prices for those have gone through the roof.

1991's had the most room to grow. I wonder how close I will end up being to accurate in my predictions.

 

[Yinzer]

1991's had the most room to grow. I wonder how close I will end up being to accurate in my predictions.

I wouldn't want to be in the market for a 1991, though. Prices for those have gone through the roof.

As recent as 3-4 years ago, 91's didn't at all seem to be preferred by people who really wanted to own an NSX; many wanted an NSX-T over a coupe obviously, but many of us who favored coupes wanted the few add'l creature comforts & mechanical improvements, a color option not produced in '91, and/or to completely avoid the potential snap ring range thing.... And if you were really lucky and found a '94, you got the prettier OEM wheels.

To me, the bump in the 91's is directly from buyers who really like the idea of owning an NSX, with the '91's appeal being the first production year and there being many more low-mile examples due to the 91's high production #'s & availability. Just an interesting dichotomy. Subtle but meaningful difference in buying motivation. Pardon me if this is super obvious. Wouldn't that be amazing if the idea of owning a non-failed snap ring range car turns out to be a desired thing??

 

[blue_myriddn]

Subtle but meaningful difference in buying motivation. Pardon me if this is super obvious. Wouldn't that be amazing if the idea of owning a non-failed snap ring range car turns out to be a desired thing??

Higher prices are usually an indication of the collector market, not the driver market - so if you are going to park a sub-10k NSX in your garage and not drive it, none of that matters.

 

[Yinzer]

Higher prices are usually an indication of the collector market, not the driver market - so if you are going to park a sub-10k NSX in your garage and not drive it, none of that matters.

Captain Obvious #1 ,

That was my point.

Signed,
Captain Obvious #2

 

[blue_myriddn]

Hmm. I guess that's my cue to get a second cup of coffee. My bad!

 

[Yinzer]

Hmm. I guess that's my que to get a second cup of coffee. My bad!

Ha ha, nah I really actually wasn't as obvious as I thought. I literally deleted mentioning that this is obviously the result of collectors stepping in, as I thought I'd look silly by stating the obvious. Obviously that was a mistake on my part.

 

[ozone]

I don't know much about collectability but I assume those guys want Condition 1's all-around so very few of our enthusiast cars would qualify. In that market, 91's may likely have special value.

However, I think while I think value of non-collectable NSX's should all rise in market value, being a 91 won't be as special. In the general marketplace, the highest values should be those of the rarest examples--simple supply/demand. The early 90s will rise at the highest % as mentioned just because their current value is the lowest and so smaller appreciation will be more substantial to its overall value.

 

[neuronbob]

Yinzer, I agree it's obvious collectors are stepping into the 1991 market (witness the 8k mile 1991 here in Cleveland a few weeks ago for which $90k was asked, and another local 1991 with 16k miles for which $64k was asked). However, even Hagerty 4 cars are now asking $40's. I guess a rising tide floats all boats, and it is true that the early NA1s have the furthest to appreciate.

Anyhoo, good for all of us!

 

[sbaylis]

Right now the NSX can still be relevant when compared to the modern sports car, especially with a power bolt-on. As such the newer cars have always had an edge on the 1991 model.

Once the NSX as a whole is no longer relevant, and becomes a seasoned classic (i.e. '56 Corvette), then the stock 1991s will be the favourite. This might take a decade

 

[Yinzer]

However, I think while I think value of non-collectable NSX's should all rise in market value, being a 91 won't be as special. In the general marketplace, the highest values should be those of the rarest examples--simple supply/demand.

If you're talking run of the mill 50k+ mile Hagerty-2 or -3 1991's, then I agree in addition to agreeing that the ~50 remaining non-branded non-modded Zanardis, NA2 coupes, and maybe some later model rare color combos should lead the way in gen-1 values in the near future... But in the name of more fun conversation, my way-amateur guess into the mindset of the collector still thinks that non-modded low-mile Hagerty-2 and (especially) Hagerty-1 1991's will be as favored (if not more) by collectors over the next 5-10 years because I'm assuming that no Zanardis or NA2 coupes are low-mileage Hagerty-1's. Being in the era before profit-driven crazily varied options lists, the early ones don't look at all outdated or even much different than the 05's...and there's just something about a 1st year red or black coupe blacktop low mileage non-molested all OEM Hagerty 1 or 2 NSX... I think a 10k mile Hagerty-1 '91 could easily out-value a 50k mile Hagerty-2 Zanardi at some point soon. Ah who knows.

The early 90s will rise at the highest % as mentioned just because their current value is the lowest and so smaller appreciation will be more substantial to its overall value.

Again, if you're talking run of the mill 91's, I agree. But the special 91's are already up there, just $10-$20k less than recent Zanardi's or ultra-clean 02+'s, and $10-$20k just isn't that big a difference in the sub-$100k range, IMHO.

I don't even pretend to think to myself that I have real knowledge about collector values -- just opinions and breeze-shooting and enjoyment of seeing things shake out. And happiness that I bought in 2013.

 

[Clint]

Something for discussion...What is the affected value of a car with a collision? If a car that has no collision history is worth, say 45-50 k what is this cars value if it has a 10-40 k collision that was fixed properly with Oem parts and looks/ drives as good or better than did before the collision? (assuming it is still a clear title not salvage but with an accident in the history) The truth is many of these cars have had collisions of some sort, if they are of any significance the car is often written off as salvage because the cost/availability of the parts. Heck you could hit a curb hard with an nsx and it would be 20k+ to have it repaired through insurance.
Thoughts?

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Something for discussion...What is the affected value of a car with a collision? If a car that has no collision history is worth, say 45-50 k what is this cars value if it has a 10-40 k collision that was fixed properly with Oem parts and looks/ drives as good or better than did before the collision? (assuming it is still a clear title not salvage but with an accident in the history) The truth is many of these cars have had collisions of some sort, if they are of any significance the car is often written off as salvage because the cost/availability of the parts. Heck you could hit a curb hard with an nsx and it would be 20k+ to have it repaired through insurance.
Thoughts?

Honestly that's a tough call. It at that point what's it worth to you as a buyer. Seemingly all these cars/or most, even the high priced outrageous ones have some type of touch up and paint work. There's a middle area where you need to be very careful because these cars are being title washed, flipped, and the buyers not disclosing full information. The repairs also are the deciding factor along with the buyer.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Something for discussion...What is the affected value of a car with a collision? If a car that has no collision history is worth, say 45-50 k what is this cars value if it has a 10-40 k collision that was fixed properly with Oem parts and looks/ drives as good or better than did before the collision?

Cars with collision history aren't going to do very well as the NSX is still a fairly common vehicle and there will be a decent number of uncrashed cars to satisfy the demand. Currently, you probably have a 15-20% decrease in value, moving forward it could be 30-50% of a decrease. Cars with colored history make great driving cars, but poor collectors cars in my opinion.

 

[Clint]

That is an interesting perspective. 15-20% seems pretty steep for a car with a collision, I would think those numbers would more apply to a car that was salvage. I have been following the sales on Nsx prime- based on asking prices only as i have no idea what they sold for and the salvage title cars seem to be in that 15-25% lower range which seems reasonable. I haven't seen any that were advertised with an accident on its history so it is hard to tell how they would be affected by the accident. Hence the post!

 

[RPM217]

What you're trying to determine, is a "story car", vs. a "no story car". If there's a "story", it depends obviously on how "big" a "story" we're talking about. Pictures and documentation help a lot in determining how much "diminished value" there should and will be. I don't care for "stories", if I'm a collector, if I want to drive the car, a "story" with pictures of a minor accident, with no frame damage, means I'll pay a little less than a "no story" car, good for me. If I'm a collector, than any story isn't good. If I'm a collector, I care about mileage and documented service, and a totally clean history. Salvage cars depending on the reason for salvage (theft, and no damage, vs. collision and being totaled)can be great drivers, and good buys, but don't look for the same appreciation down the road, or depreciation as a clean car. Salvage Ford GT's are now bringing $200,000 if repaired by the right people, with proper "documentation". Crazy, but demand is high, and people want to buy a driver, if it's a "collector" they're looking for, than you're talking significantly more $$$$.