I bet most Vet's are way happier than most Doc's. Not everyone needs a mansion to be happy....especially one they hardly ever see (or end up giving to their ex-wife and her new boyfriend)
Graduate degree.. most rewarding/income over next 25 years
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I bet most Vet's are way happier than most Doc's. Not everyone needs a mansion to be happy....especially one they hardly ever see (or end up giving to their ex-wife and her new boyfriend)
I do consulting work for several law firms and many times I've thought about going back and getting a JD. From my point of view, that's Los Angeles Downtown and west side firms, the job market seems to be pretty good. It's going to depend a lot on your practice but I think if you're good, you won't have a problem. It looks to me like the big firms were laying off left and right because of the turn in the economy, a lot of people weren't willing to pay 500/600 an hour. So there were a lot of people moving to the cost effective firms and business has actually picked up quite a bit for the firms specializing in corporate law.
Also, there is that chance that you land the big case that sets you for life. One guy I know left the partnership because he had a huge case with archdiocese and sexual abuse cases. It's like having a good chance to win the lotto.
Also, there is that chance that you land the big case that sets you for life. One guy I know left the partnership because he had a huge case with archdiocese and sexual abuse cases. It's like having a good chance to win the lotto.
how about getting a career where you actually contribute something to a society or make something tangeable? i think we have enaugh ambulance-chasing lawyers and traders creating dreamed-up scenarios to make a profit on non-existing commodities. just a thought.
Not all attorneys are ambulance chasers and it's probably safe to speculate at least half do provide meaningful contributions to society. As far as trading goes, won't argue with you there. My father has saved several failing firms through restructuring and bringing them back to life as an attorney. Not to mention everyone hates lawyers until they need one. Most of the greatest beneficiaries to man kind (IMO) have achieved wealth and then funneled it later in life into productive charities, research, etc. My first responsibility is to myself and my future family, then society. For the mean time I pay plenty of taxes and utilize very few public resources. I understand your point though and if I could choose between two identical trades, one which produces something "tangible" and clearly beneficial to society and one that doesn't, I'd choose the former.
How do you practice what you preach?
sorry about the generalization but you know exactly what i mean- how do i practice what i preach? i try my best starting with continuously trying to improve the products i make to make it safer for you to fly. it actually is pretty stressful as i do have a lot of personal responsibility (to myself as well) not to yeld to the corporate greed to just get the product out the door at cheapest possible cost no matter what the quality is. remember that all we make is made by the lowest bidder and that does not translate well into quality of the product.
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even though i was generalizing i think you got my point- of course you need to look after yourself but i think we all should adopt the 'do no harm' motto- something the financial sector and the greedy part of the law establishment should really look into.
edit: i am sure you will all agree that when we were (or are) in our mid-20s everything was easy to explain and was always 'black or white': the free-market will take care of everything if left alone, people in power do not take advantage of it at expense of others, people who are in shitty situations are always the ones responsible for it etc etc.
as you gain life experience you realise that what you were told is always biased to some extent.
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I don't agree with any of the points in your last paragraph (besides the bias remark, which is inherint in human communication). For better or worse I'm no where near a "greedy" portion of any sector, more along the lines of barely treading water after student loans, rent, taxes, business expenses, etc. I've worked two jobs almost full time for the last 6 months now in order to hit my minimum savings requirement.
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You see my point,from your armchair you feel there is "value" added to what you do,beyond your compensation.I hope most of every one feels that sense of accomplishment/pride in thier work.If you could do exactly what you are doing now but could be payed twice what you get now would you accept the new position?
really? from your posts in other treads thats exactly what i think your outlook is- black or white.
edit: i did not say you were greedy, did i? i said the portion of the financial sector is.
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i was not trying to convey that what i do is more important than what you do for whatever pay. i do beileve that the way you handle your career is everything, afterall integrity is the only measure of your character. and yes, i took a beating over that before, got 'laid off' in the middle of last year because i would not go along with decrease in quality vs. delivery etc.
it was actually quite nasty.
edit: now, if we talk about a lawyer 'defending' a murderer to make millions and get fame (aka shapiro and cronies) or bankers inventing 'scenarios' to create profits- those i consider parasites.
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Have you considered a MEM? There is significant demand IMO and I think the market is only going to grow.
Modern engineering tasks are too complicated for small teams, and therefore there is a solid need for business minded engineering management. If you can speak engineer that might be a route to take.
Modern engineering tasks are too complicated for small teams, and therefore there is a solid need for business minded engineering management. If you can speak engineer that might be a route to take.
Either I failed to articulate myself sufficiently or you didn't read carefully. Regardless, anyone who thinks the points you listed are true exactly as you stated them is ignorant. I spent years of my life studying how the world has tried and mostly failed to utilize the free market system without letting it get out of control or avoiding the temptation to manipulate it eventually (usually by governments for political leverage, which was the case recently). That being said, in today's context, most our current issues IMO are derived not from the ebb and flow of the business cycle but the massive distortion of various incentive structures (housing, which assets to invest in, the amount of college debt/overall debt individuals take on, etc.). In fact, every single wide spread financial crisis is due primarily to government and policy failure (read This Time Is Different if you are interested, great book). Weak regulatory mechanisms are also to blame although that's simply a battle of wits when it really comes down to it; it's impossible to perfect and I have sympathy for the government in that regard.
By the way, thanks for the kind words Danny. I don't take them lightly.
Sometimes you still hate them:biggrin:
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You're not going to make much headway trading posts with someone with a chip on their shoulder against capitalists and capitalist ideals in a thread dealing with Business related degrees. :tongue:
That being said, bang for buck you'll probably benefit most from an MBA. I'm just a couple years your senior and I didn't go to a top tier school but my B school is a nationally ranked top 20 school here in the midwest. Upon graduating, I was rewarded financially because of my degree. It was worth it to me.
You'll find an MBA program very relevant, and judging from your posts, probably easy and enjoyable to get through. If trading ever goes out the window you've got a generally transferrable degree to accompany your undergraduate degree. You can get into finance, marketing and general management roles easier with an MBA than without.
I found the folks who struggled in my cohort did so more because they weren't realistic about the business world as opposed to lack of work ethic.
You seem to have a very realistic grasp on business and the the disciplines it encompasses. I think you'd be a fantastic candidate and believe that your classmates would benefit because of your involvement.
Best of luck with whatever you decide.
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edit: i apologize for hijacking the tread.
actually his clarification was perfectly acceptable so i really doubt he needs you to come to the rescue with a stupid comment- notice we had no issues until you decided to chime in.
yes, my posts are soooo insane, how dare i even mention the decline of business morals where the end justifies the means. yep, what a crazy liberal i am, not to mention a small business owner.
if you would stop short of generalising my stance you might even agree with (like sahht does) the notion that unchecked capitalism is damaging to all but the top 1%. yes, we have gained so much over the last decade of pure capitalistic ideals.
actually his clarification was perfectly acceptable so i really doubt he needs you to come to the rescue with a stupid comment- notice we had no issues until you decided to chime in.
yes, my posts are soooo insane, how dare i even mention the decline of business morals where the end justifies the means. yep, what a crazy liberal i am, not to mention a small business owner.
if you would stop short of generalising my stance you might even agree with (like sahht does) the notion that unchecked capitalism is damaging to all but the top 1%. yes, we have gained so much over the last decade of pure capitalistic ideals.
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I think it's safe to say that technology generation is the reason the global economy continually has ever higher living standards (despite median wage growth being extremely low growth or even negative in the US).
A large percentage of lawyers and traders probably do very little to enhance any quality of the US economy. The current tax/legal regime has made lots of this non-value-added work lucrative and our country will be better for it once the incentives for extremely smart people to enter these fields declines.
This isn't anything revolutionary, many policy makers (both left & right) already espouse such beliefs.
I'm just continuing the hijack someone else started...
A large percentage of lawyers and traders probably do very little to enhance any quality of the US economy. The current tax/legal regime has made lots of this non-value-added work lucrative and our country will be better for it once the incentives for extremely smart people to enter these fields declines.
This isn't anything revolutionary, many policy makers (both left & right) already espouse such beliefs.
I'm just continuing the hijack someone else started...
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i just returned from our vet of 25 years (one of our dogs had minor surgery today and, sadly, our surviving maine coon of ~14 years passed away after a prolonged illness just one month ago.
i've spent more time than usual with him over the past 6 months and during that time, we've talked about his career choice and level of happiness in his profession. he's been a vet for >30 years, owns the clinic (it's a small animal, pet-type clinic) and has 2 other vets working in the clinic.
he absolutely *loves* his job, is **always** upbeat, always calls us on sat or sun if that's when lab results come in, always calls us to check on our creatures post-surgery, etc. the clinic - both the "dog" and "cat" sides - are *always* jam packed. he said he doesn't enjoy his vacations as much as other people seem to because he enjoys his work so much.
in the 25+ years we've been with him (we won't see the other vets unless it's an emergency and our doc is away), we've met many, many people who have spent at least as much as we have with his clinic (i'm betting at least 40k in that time).
i don't have a clue where he lives, but he drives a prius and has been married to his only wife since lassie was a puppy.
he may well be the exception, but he's a very, very happy camper being a vet.
Speaking of being productive.. make some suggestions.
Post #17 was my first post, but I'll go again.
I happen to disagree with a lot of the advice in this thread. Personally I want to make 150k/year+ by the age of 30. I don't know if you make this already but it's pretty damn hard to do in the general population if you don't want to start a company, you don't have advanced degree, don't work in sales, or work in entertainment. I would think the advice I'm giving would put you on the path to make at least 150k/year by the age of 35, which is pretty damn good when you look at the income distribution.
I've spent quite a lot of time researching career options for what I would call 'top performers' - those in the top 5% of the intelligence distribution. Strictly from an income perspective you probably have two options which are superior to others.
I tend to think your best option, by far, is an MBA - most likely from UT Austin. I don't know what your undergraduate degree is. Upon exiting MBA you program have a few likely options.
1) Stay in Finance (S&T).
2) Stay in Finance (work in IB).
3) Start a company.
4) Switch industries utilizing your new connections you've gained while in school. Not knowing your background, this could mean going into a sales position for a high tech firm, maybe a business development role for a consumer goods company, maybe analytic position at an oil company. An MBA does open things up.
If you had a decent GPA in undergraduate and are quite good quantitatively I'd almost recommend an MFE (but doubt you could get into the top programs, that probably requires a 99.5th+ percentile intellect). If you don't score a pure 800 on the GRE math I'd doubt they'd even look at your application.
I tend to think that Law School is a bad move for anything outside the top 14 schools or major regional flagships if you tend to stay in that area. The law profession is undergoing a tremendous amount of turmoil currently and I wouldn't want to go in unless I thought I could absolutely crush my competition academically (not easy at these schools) or had some sort of rare trait that helped me (ie: a technical degree that lets you go into patent law).
This is post is probably pretty blunt for a lot of people, but I figure it's probably the best way to get the information across as quickly as possible.
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We are in a winner take all society. You either pull down $1B a year or you pull down little. There isn't much of a ladder, more like a catapult.
Here is the education path I recommend:
1. Learn how to dance well, so the chicks dig you hard.
2. Learn to be the life of any party, guys will invite you to the next one.
3. Live in the city that is the hub for your type of work (New York, for finance).
4. Dress well, eat well and drive trendy cars (cars are just as much as a business suit as the one you are wearing).
5. You will eventually get invited to parties where powerful and rich people party and do business.
6. If you do #1 and #2 well enough, you will get your foot in the door. If your cred's are good: so much the better, but not really important.
7. If the entrenched management likes you: then you too will pull down $100M a quarter during a recession.
I see a lot of rich folks in my 'hood. They tend to be less smart or about average...it is actually pretty depressing. With very very few exceptions they were "set up" by family. And a few by a lucky contact along their path.
Even fewer that actually relied on hard work and ingenuity. The important part (presuming you don't have contacts/family) is to be on the right social path more than anything.
tl;dr Looks and personality trumps ability and education.
It is pretty shallow, but there are more than enough talented folks in the world than is desired.
good luck,
Drew
Here is the education path I recommend:
1. Learn how to dance well, so the chicks dig you hard.
2. Learn to be the life of any party, guys will invite you to the next one.
3. Live in the city that is the hub for your type of work (New York, for finance).
4. Dress well, eat well and drive trendy cars (cars are just as much as a business suit as the one you are wearing).
5. You will eventually get invited to parties where powerful and rich people party and do business.
6. If you do #1 and #2 well enough, you will get your foot in the door. If your cred's are good: so much the better, but not really important.
7. If the entrenched management likes you: then you too will pull down $100M a quarter during a recession.
I see a lot of rich folks in my 'hood. They tend to be less smart or about average...it is actually pretty depressing. With very very few exceptions they were "set up" by family. And a few by a lucky contact along their path.
Even fewer that actually relied on hard work and ingenuity. The important part (presuming you don't have contacts/family) is to be on the right social path more than anything.
tl;dr Looks and personality trumps ability and education.
It is pretty shallow, but there are more than enough talented folks in the world than is desired.
good luck,
Drew
Well, you do live in LA...
But yeah, a lot more truth in your post than most would like to admit.
But yeah, a lot more truth in your post than most would like to admit.
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All in good fun, bro.
I don't want to start an internet rivalry. I'm sure you don't either.
While it's apparent we don't agree on a lot of issues, I do think we both agree that there is no harm in voicing our opinions.
I'm not always as eloquent as others.
I'll try to be less sarcastic going forward.
Don't let your finance experience go to waste. There is alot of opportunity in the financial field.
I am a CFP and a ChFC. I get to help people avoid unncessary taxes, keep more of what they earn, educate them on taking control of their finances. I am able to really make a difference in peoples lives.
I don't know what you consider good pay, but I can assure you that at your age, starting now down this path, you will be making $400k + in 15 years.
I make more than most of my Doctor clients and attorney clients. Because I understand finance, I have done very well for my family and my clients.
I really think it's rewarding, because you can do good for people, and do well for yourself at the same time. There are also alot of old timers leaving the business, and hanging their clients out with no one to handle their finances. We have such a vacum in the Financial Planning field, at precisely the time in human history that we are seeing the largest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen!!
I am not talking about the cheesy Edward Jones, Ameriprise Primerica "financial advisors." There are plenty of good Independant BD's out there to choose from.
PM me if you have any additional questions
I am a CFP and a ChFC. I get to help people avoid unncessary taxes, keep more of what they earn, educate them on taking control of their finances. I am able to really make a difference in peoples lives.
I don't know what you consider good pay, but I can assure you that at your age, starting now down this path, you will be making $400k + in 15 years.
I make more than most of my Doctor clients and attorney clients. Because I understand finance, I have done very well for my family and my clients.
I really think it's rewarding, because you can do good for people, and do well for yourself at the same time. There are also alot of old timers leaving the business, and hanging their clients out with no one to handle their finances. We have such a vacum in the Financial Planning field, at precisely the time in human history that we are seeing the largest transfer of wealth the world has ever seen!!
I am not talking about the cheesy Edward Jones, Ameriprise Primerica "financial advisors." There are plenty of good Independant BD's out there to choose from.
PM me if you have any additional questions
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