Graduate degree.. most rewarding/income over next 25 years

[sahtt]

I realize most of you are well into your careers and even if the real estate/financial sector "restructuring" of late has forced a job change, the dividends and associated costs with further education are harder to justify as one ages.

But let's say you are me. A measly 25 years old, undergraduate degree from a top 20 U.S/top 40 global school with a decent GPA, almost trilingual (trilingual at working proficiency level), interesting and challenging work experiences, an above average grasp of the English language, with a modestly successful career in a fairly difficult field in finance (securities trader).

Given application rates have sky rocketed 200-800%+ at top 20 schools due to the recession, any of these options will realistically not be achieved at a Harvard/Yale, more along the lines of a school ranking from the 10-25 spectrum.

Despite the variety, I am probably equally capable and academically prepared for each; so that will be considered a non factor (realistically I am least concerned about the difficulty of obtaining the J.D.)

Masters of Finance
MBA
J.D.

From my insight deep within the industry, I know for a fact many current MoF holders are struggling. These include individuals that have far better credentials than myself; these persons will not be easy to compete with post graduation. In conjunction with this, as the overall portion of corporate profits derived from finance/financial products declines back towards the historic mean, the finance job market will at the very best hold steady if the economic environment is restored towards "equilibrium" (I do not believe this will occur for a long time).

An MBA is a great tool for most business/finance applications but the number of MBA holders has exploded. It's a fairly saturated market and without a focused plan of utilization or a ready business concept, it can be difficult to justify by monetary means. Note that an MBA from a TOP school does not fit this profile and still generally rewards you with a great starting salary.

Lastly, the J.D. Again, heavily saturated market. The overall attorney per capita ratio is at historic highs and there are rumors of 40%+ unemployment among graduating attorneys. It is arguable that a J.D. can be as useful and broad in application as an MBA for starting or restructuring a business. My father is an attorney and a judge for various law school litigation contests, so through his communication with recent graduates I believe I have an accurate representation of the near term outlook. That being said, few attorneys have the finance experience I have and my father is reasonably confident he could find work for me as long as I graduate with good grades, participate with the right clubs, etc. I used to be opposed to such a thing, but watching friends from cornell struggle to find work for 30k a year has erased whatever "pride" I had left in that regard. He has also been offered several opportunities to take over and restructure some small/medium sized real estate related firms that he could utilize me in with the appropriate education.

So in the context of an exceedingly difficult white collar job market and SEC regulations clamping down significantly on the profitability of my current small business entity, what would you wise men of prime suggest?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Dtrigg]

Sorry, but I am afraid I don't understand your question.

 

[sahtt]

Sorrh, but I am afraid I don't understand your question.

Which of the 3 would you choose and why? I think I'm starting to write like John Microsoft.

 

[docjohn]

Don't agonize over degrees,put yourself in a place where anything can happen.sounds like you want to be a chief,not just an indian,so to do that you have to be in the workforce,making moves and getting lucky.That said sounds like you should go to med school

 

[NsXMas]

I have an MBA. It was the right choice for me.

For you, you seem to have done the research, now you have to make the right decision. Good luck.

 

[sahtt]

Don't agonize over degrees,put yourself in a place where anything can happen.sounds like you want to be a chief,not just an indian,so to do that you have to be in the workforce,making moves and getting lucky.That said sounds like you should go to med school

If I were to start over, I would have gone into structural engineering; although med school doesn't sound too bad either. Well put about the chief.

 

[Dtrigg]

Thanks for the clarification. It's a very difficult question to answer because it's such a personal matter. It's like telling someone what to do with their life. That being said, I would opt for a MBA. Why? Because that's what I did. I did consider a joint MBA/JD program Stanford offered. It was a four year program. After considerable thought, I decided I really didn't want to practice law. Enough said.

Now keep in mind, I am retired and not all that familiar with the job market. However, I would suggest that if you don't go to a top tier school, don't go. Consider the cost of a degree, $60K to $100K, opportunity cost of not working, and the amount of time to recoup your costs.

Good luck.

 

[BATMANs]

My take is unless you have a dire need for a grad school diploma in the math and sciences, a MBA/JD doesn't seem to guarantee a pay off.

I've seen and know more examples of people with a BS/BA degree that spend less than the amount of time to pull a MBA or JD degree that are more successful from simply networking with the right people in the right places.

The DOT COM days have countless examples of people that knew the right person with barely a 4-year degree that made millions.

My friend that sold me my NSX is an example. He drop outta college, was friends with the people that started a company making firewalls, put time into the start up, went IPO and was looking for a Gallardo and a house in the hills with a stellar view before he even hit 30.

The same people that started up the company that he went IPO cashed out and did another company and brought him along.

But he wanted to start up his own company and is doing quite nice.

These are the people that don't go to job interviews. If they want a job, they just make a phone call or send an email to the right person.

The folks that I have met that don't have a job are not people that I have seen to be well connected.

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

 

[ediddynsx]

Well since you do have your dad who is a judge and attorney and who is willing to hook you up, then I would say go for it. He is basically telling you how to get there.

You are a pretty bright guy and pretty lucky to been given a good education from your folks.

Lastly I can at least say in the medical field the difference between going to stanford and berkley as my cousin states to his fellow surgeon friend....is that he owes 100k where his stanford colleague buddy owes 250k in school loans as they stand next to eachother doing the exact same thing.

Batman has also stated its a bit of luck, timing and knowing the right people.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

An excellent question and let me start off by saying that you are already well ahead of the curve by asking this. That in and of itself leads me to believe that further education is more of an exercise than actual benefit to you.

Specifically regarding your degrees, here’s my take.

Best bang for your buck (easiest and/or cheapest to get with fastest returns, but with capped potential): MBA
Most internally satisfying (especially if this is your specific area of interest, but poor rate of return): Masters in Finance
Highest potential (harder or more expensive to get, but probably has the best potential for long term money or position): JD

If you just want something for your own enrichment, specific degrees seem to be the best bet. However, I have very few people actually benefit much (financially or career wise) from a field of study specific degree. JD’s are nice and versatile and will give you long term potential, but are a lot of work and money, especially if you don’t utilize it fully or go down that field. If you want something quick and immediate the MBA is relatively easy to get and will help distinguish you in the short term for that nice income boost or marketability. However, as you get older you’ll find that either, anybody or everybody has one, or that it really doesn’t matter next to proven experience. I was about 1/3 through my MBA program when I realized that I was getting to an age where it was pretty pointless. After my first job, I realized I had no more need to ever update my resume or further my education. The first reason was that as I became a known quantity in my industry, it wasn’t I who needed to apply for jobs, it was companies who were trying to steal me away. I’m nowhere near the level of a Bill Gates, but do you think he even have a need for a resume? And even if he did, imagine what his resume would say; he didn’t even graduate college. The second thing I realized, in addition to not needing a resume or higher education, was that the kind of success and money I’d like to make was more dependent on my own ambition over anything a school could teach me. There are a lot of successful guys here on Prime and with the exceptions of the doctors and lawyers, I would guess that a good chunk of them probably do not have graduate degrees. Take a guy like Steveny. I have no idea if he has graduate degree or not but you can tell from his street smarts, life knowledge, ambition, hard work and drive that he’d basically make money no matter where he went and what he did. The other lesson being that most people who make good money typically are in a business of their own or some form of entrepreneurship.

 

[swerve2007]

25 year old securities trader- your posts just took on a new meaning.

 

[99 rs]

My friend is currently thinking of going the same route. He just finished his undergrad in business and is having a hard time finding a job that pays more than Best Buy pays. It almost seems like you need to have a masters to even find a decent job. I'm with Batmans on this one as well; it's all about who you know. I'm doing my undergrad in chemical engineering right now and I would never get a masters or PHD in it. That is a sure way to end up working in a lab. I find in this economy nobody really wants to pay for your "over qualification" when a regular engineer will accomplish the same task.

This next video I always send to my friend if he goes on about the MBA; it's been an on-going joke for a few years now.

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[Vega$ NSX]

The best analogy I can give is this:

An education/degree is like meeting women (you know I had to go there!). :biggrin::tongue: A good place to meet women are in clubs or bars. I know, I know, not exactly but bear with me for the sake of the analogy. However, certain bars or clubs have dress codes and cover charges. This is like a minimum education requirement that some companies/industries have. Now, there are some very quality women in some of the very top end clubs, but you need some fancy clothes, credentials and money to order to even get into these clubs. Similar to some companies and industries where you need a minimum education level to even be let in for consideration. However, it’s important to note two things. There are other clubs out there with less stringent velvet rope requirements and some clubs and bars which are completely open to anybody. There good looking women in those clubs as well but maybe the ratio is not as good. The analogy would be like think of the medical field and being a doctor as an exclusive job where the cover requirements are very high. However, inside the club, there are lots of good opportunities for well paying jobs (i.e. hot women). However, there are other jobs, say sales, where they are less selective in the requirements (i.e. there is no cover charge). The ratio of lucrative jobs is less; the average doctor probably makes more than a guy in sales, but it doesn’t mean a sales guy who really works his ass off can’t make as much money as a doctor if he finds the right job and works really hard. So you don’t absolutely have to go to the fanciest club to find the best women; hot women are in all sorts of clubs and bars. If you are good at what you do, you can still score a great job or woman in any club/bar. Although if you like the kind of women that go to the best clubs, then the only way to meet them is to have the credentials to get in. BUT, just like a graduate degree, just getting into the club doesn’t guarantee success with women. You still have to work very hard to meet women and some people who get into clubs still don’t get women or hottest ones. That would be similar to those who get a good degree, but have poor people and marketing skills and can’t get a very good job. Likewise, there are some people who go into hole in the wall clubs or bars and find a knockout of a woman, like a guy who drops out of college yet creates Dell or Microsoft. Then there are people who don’t even go to clubs or bars to meet women. They are the ones that follow their own path and meet women their own way. They are often your entrepreneurs and artists. And just like entrepreneurs and artists, some of them hit the jackpot and some of them live paycheck to paycheck. The point being is they buck the trend of the traditional place to meet women (bars and clubs) just like they shun the traditional work hierarchy with a mixed bag of success; generally those that do well have a good work ethic, talent, confidence or ambition.

So the point of all of this? The first lesson is to remember that no matter what club or bar you go to or what degree you have, you are always in control of how successful you want to be. The second lesson is to understand the role of an education. Use it only to improve your odds by allowing you to enter a “club” with more “opportunities” or allow access to the exclusive club you want to be in. If you want to be a doctor or lawyer or if you know that most CEOs require at least an MBA, then get the proper credentials to get you in the door and a fighting chance at the position. Finally remember, there is always working outside the system of traditional clubs/bars and typical workforce (aka Office Space). It’s always a risk/reward proposition but if you can win, you win big.

 

[passline]

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

AMEN brother! What one knows, just makes it easier along the way.

 

[Dtrigg]

Average MBA Starting Salaries at the Top Business Schools
Rank Business School, Applicants Accepted, Median Total Pay Package*

1 Harvard 15% $130,000
2 Stanford 10% $130,000
3 U. of Pennsylvania (Wharton) 19% $145,000
4 M.I.T. 20% $113,500
5 Northwestern (Kellogg) 24% $133,000
6 Chicago NA $136,000
7 Dartmouth (Tuck) 20% $109,000
8 UC Berkeley (Haas) 17% $118,000
9 Columbia 17% $144,000
10 NYU (Stern) 20% $128,000
11 Michigan (Ross) 28% $104,000
12 Duke (Fuqua) 37% $114,000
13 Virginia (Darden) 41% $121,000
14 Cornell (Johnson) 36% $117,000
15 Yale 22% $115,000

Sources: U.S. News & World Report's 2008 Business School Rankings and individual school

*Does not include signing bonus

 

[jond]

So why again are you stopping trading?
Is it possible the profitability you're down on is a temporary thing?
Is it possible trading in a different country would have more desirable regulations?

 

[Mr Payne]

24 myself. I'm going to get a M.Eng in Petroleum Engineering. I think the future of Big Oil is in serious doubt - but I think this will pay out well with employer reimbursement. Just three years of (hellish) night school and a very significant salary bump and exit opportunities.

I think in my early 30s I will try for an MBA (top 10 only).

 

[clr1024]

I find in this economy nobody really wants to pay for your "over qualification" when a regular engineer will accomplish the same task.

This next video I always send to my friend if he goes on about the MBA; it's been an on-going joke for a few years now.

Being a "regular" engineer I will add my two cents...I agree if you don't want to work in a lab all day, do research or teach then I don't see the need for the masters or PhD degree in engineering, unless it's for your own personal gain. My feeling is that if you want beyond that, project management etc, management in general you are far better off with something else that will diversify your engineering degree, an MBA or JD works well in this case, as there aren't many engineers with JD's for exampel. My buddy got his JD, loves it, best combination for him ever. He was a great engineer and now he's great as a lawyer because most corporate lawyers are not technical and he can excel there, with regards to contract reviews. I see him doing very well as he has created a niche market for himself. He doesnt want to do patent law, not his thing, in case you are wondering. Great money but boring...I thought about that same path.

Prove yourself in a company and people will try to steal you just like VegasNSX said, this is both internal and external. I work with a bunch of Masters and PhD's, they are all over the damn place, however I am more ahead in my career than many of them. Most of that is due to time in my actual career, versus them in acadamia, other part of that is people skills. That said, I don't want to do R&D for a living, its not my thing. I think the key thing here is...what do you want to do when you grow up:biggrino you feel the need for the additional degree? May just depend on the path you take.

 

[sahtt]

I thank all of you for your responses and have read each and every one carefully. A few quick points-

I paid for most of my college expenses and if it weren't for the 2.33% interest on the remaining few thousand of student debt, they would/could be paid off (BP stock pays 8%, 5.5% after tax and the interest on the student debt is obviously tax deductible ). Going to grad school will require me going into debt (exact opposite of my entire philosophy) for at least most of the tuition; I have enough savings to support myself for a few years. This was obviously not a small feat and required significant sacrifice.

The way my current business is structured I'm already essentially a (small) business owner. I put up the capital and I take on the risk. The only reason I'm associated with a firm is due to SEC regulations and the fact I depend on leverage in order to provide the capital I need in certain situations. That being said, I'm one of few still in the black month after month. Considering the risk I take on each and every day (I have probably 100k$ minimum in positions over night on average) and the fact there is absolutely no guarantee the market will pick up in the next 12 months, it can be difficult to justify. I'm the youngest guy in the office of 100+ professional traders and most of them have 1m+ in the bank they can sit on while they pay 1k+ each month in various SEC and seat fees. I don't have this luxury.

I'm going to do what I do best and put my head down and study my a$$ for the LSAT in the mean time for my June test date. Sometimes I wish I hadn't obtained so much concrete knowledge on the extent of the global market's current struggles so I wouldn't constantly second guess what is still going to "work" in the next couple decades.

 

[BATMANs]

AMEN brother! What one knows, just makes it easier along the way.

As far as I'm concern is that in the business field all one really needs to "know" is a BS/BA degree in business.

The rest are based on people skills which I don't care to demonstrate on this forum or the internet for that matter.

I'm a bit bi-polar online and in a professional setting... :biggrin:

 

[DocL]

Forget about all of the aforementioned. Go to vet school. They are making a killing and there's no insurance regulations being imposed on them. Otherwise, I'd say keep the tuition money and buy a few hotdog carts and hang out in front of Home Depot.

 

[clr1024]

Forget about all of the aforementioned. Go to vet school. They are making a killing and there's no insurance regulations being imposed on them. Otherwise, I'd say keep the tuition money and buy a few hotdog carts and hang out in front of Home Depot.

My friends that are vets don't seem to thrilled with their paychecks. They also paid a lot of money for that grad degree. I can understand not wanting to deal with the insurance regulations though.

Always wonder how much the hot dog guy makes out front of Home Depot, seems like they could make a killing on a busy Saturday.

 

[docjohn]

Forget about all of the aforementioned. Go to vet school. They are making a killing and there's no insurance regulations being imposed on them. Otherwise, I'd say keep the tuition money and buy a few hotdog carts and hang out in front of Home Depot.

vet schmet....Dental school man! they are flying under the radar....cash only pay on your way out.....you can keep whatever little the insurance will pay

 

[BATMANs]

I understand that it's tougher getting into Vet school than homo sapien med school.

I've yet to see a vet own a nice car or mansion.

There is a vet clinic next door to a restaurant in the area of the Vietnamese Coffee shops, ya know....

 

[lowellhigh79]

I thank all of you for your responses and have read each and every one carefully. A few quick points-

I paid for most of my college expenses and if it weren't for the 2.33% interest on the remaining few thousand of student debt, they would/could be paid off (BP stock pays 8%, 5.5% after tax and the interest on the student debt is obviously tax deductible ). Going to grad school will require me going into debt (exact opposite of my entire philosophy) for at least most of the tuition; I have enough savings to support myself for a few years. This was obviously not a small feat and required significant sacrifice.

The way my current business is structured I'm already essentially a (small) business owner. I put up the capital and I take on the risk. The only reason I'm associated with a firm is due to SEC regulations and the fact I depend on leverage in order to provide the capital I need in certain situations. That being said, I'm one of few still in the black month after month. Considering the risk I take on each and every day (I have probably 100k$ minimum in positions over night on average) and the fact there is absolutely no guarantee the market will pick up in the next 12 months, it can be difficult to justify. I'm the youngest guy in the office of 100+ professional traders and most of them have 1m+ in the bank they can sit on while they pay 1k+ each month in various SEC and seat fees. I don't have this luxury.

I'm going to do what I do best and put my head down and study my a$$ for the LSAT in the mean time for my June test date. Sometimes I wish I hadn't obtained so much concrete knowledge on the extent of the global market's current struggles so I wouldn't constantly second guess what is still going to "work" in the next couple decades.

So young yet so smart. I have all the confidence in the world that you will succeed in whichever route you take. Best of luck and study hard.

Best Regards,

Danny