Gouging into brake rotors... bad for calipers?

[kenjiMR]

I've had Carbotech Panther Plusses on my NSX for almost a year now and I've gone to the track 4 times with them and about 10,000 of street driving. I knew the pads were getting really thin, but I didn't think they were _that_ thin yet. Luckily, I already bought a new set of powerslot rotors to replace my OE rotors that were starting to crack after all the track and mountain runs that I've done. So yesterday I finally noticed a huge gouge on the center portion of the rotor, probably 1/4" wide and 1/16" deep. How bad is this for the caliper? I don't plan to drive the car until I install the new rotors and pads, but should I be worried that my caliper could get damaged as well? I know for a fact that the car was only driven this way on friday night as I was out enjoying the nightlife...

Anyone else wait this long before changing their pads out or am I a moron?

 

[kenjiMR]

I just re-read what I posted... of course I would be a moron if I had rotors that are in good condition. I guess I really didn't care what happened to the rotors since they were already cracking.

In any case, I'd still like to know what this may do to the calipers.

 

[nsxtasy]

Okay, I'll take a guess and someone who knows a lot more than I do (sjs?) can correct me.

It's not clear, Kenji, exactly what happened here. Did your pads wear all the way down, so that there was no pad material and the backing plates were rubbing against the rotor?

Even if that is what happened, that - in and of itself - wouldn't be any cause for damage to the caliper. The pads and rotors which would be damaged were about to be tossed anyway. I would think that the primary risk of damage to the calipers would be from the heat generated from braking (along with its inability to be absorbed by a thick layer of brake pad material). This could melt the piston boots, making them cracked or torn or crispy. You would fix this by getting a piston boot kit (yes, they're available) and having the caliper rebuilt. In cases of extreme heat, you might want to replace the pistons as well, but you probably wouldn't need to replace the whole caliper.

 

[kenjiMR]

nsxtsy, thanks for the reply.
Yeah, I didn't think it would damage the whole caliper housing thing (don't know the official name of it), but the I thought there might be a possibility of damaging the piston. I remember that there is a steel plate behind the braking compound, so I'm hoping that thats whats gouging into the rotor.

 

[maomaonsx]

I don't think you need to worry about your calipers. The mark left on the rotor is by the two pins on the carbotech pads. They are really annoying and reduce the life of the pads because you can't use them all the way down. Oh well, they ARE great pads.

------------------
G Dummy~

if you think I'm selling my go-fast parts to go back to stock, you are way wrong my friend

 

[gobble]

Nsxtasy, I know you go to the track often. Have you removed the splash guards from your hubs? I read that this can have a measurable effect on the heat retained by the rotors. Your thoughts?

Also, I've had a piston boot on order for my rear caliper for about 3 months now and it hasn't come in. Everyone says they're backordered. I would think this would be a somewhat common part that would be more easily available.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by gobble:
Nsxtasy, I know you go to the track often. Have you removed the splash guards from your hubs? I read that this can have a measurable effect on the heat retained by the rotors. Your thoughts?

I have not removed my splash guards. I had a two-inch hole cut into them, and a flange welded on. I have two-inch-diameter cooling ducts that lead from the front air dam and are attached to these flanges. So, in my particular case, the splash guards are assisting in cooling.

For those without ducts, I know some folks have removed the splash guards, and others have installed the Dali deflectors; some have done both. I suppose either step helps, but I don't really know if the difference is substantial or minimal.

Originally posted by gobble:
Also, I've had a piston boot on order for my rear caliper for about 3 months now and it hasn't come in. Everyone says they're backordered. I would think this would be a somewhat common part that would be more easily available.

I find this interesting. For all the problems I've had with heat in the braking system - and they're considerable (for a while I was replacing the rotors every fourth track event, due to shudder) - it has always been the front rotors. I have never needed to replace the rear rotors, and I have never had to have the rear calipers rebuilt. I'm not doubting your description of your situation, just noting my own experience. And perhaps it explains why the rear rebuild kit is not well stocked.

HTH

 

[gobble]

Can you think of a parts dept that may stock the boots (rather than having to order it)? I've called Tracy and AOB and neither have it.

 

[Vytas]

I run my NSX without the dust shields, permanently. I also added Dali air deflectors. At my next track event, I noticed much less shudder. With the dust shields gone and larger air deflectors, I believe the rotor is getting tons of airflow to the other side that is usually blocked by the dust shields. At my next track event, I had new RM rotors installed with new OEM pads. With the dust sheilds gone and added air deflectors, I pounded the brakes all day at Laguna Seca. Absolutely no shudder. I *know* the dust shields and air deflectors do make the difference.

I believe I saw a post from Mark Johnson (don't quote me on this) but a test was conducted with a pyrometer after several runs. The first was in OEM form and the temp was measured. After cooling down and taking the second run with no dust shields, the pyrometer read the rotor temperature about 100 degrees cooler. On the next run, the air deflectors were added and that resulted to an additional 50 degree temp drop. So, tossing the dust shields and adding larger air deflectors can bring your brake rotor temp down by 150 degrees. That's probably why I had no brake issues at Laguna Seca with this setup.

Vytas

 

[kenjiMR]

Removing dust shield probably helps, but changing the brake pad compound makes the biggest difference. Also, depending on how hard you "pound" your brakes will definitely affect how much shudder you will get as well. I think at my level of driving, my OEM rotors are still ok... but I think I will be upgrading the brake system in a year or so.

 

[gobble]

How long did it take to remove the shields? I'm going to the track tomorrow and don't want to end up with my car in pieces tonight. Also do you remember what number phillips bit is required to remove the rotors?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

gobble,

I did this a long time ago, but.....

1. remove wheels
2. remove pads/caliper
3. remove caliper mounting bracket
4. remove rotor (You need an impact screwdriver if the phillips screws are holding the rotors on.)
5. remove hub (four nuts in the back), you may have to remove the speed sensor wire, I cannot recall, just keep in mind it is fragile)
6. remove shield

install in reverse, torque everything

When I reinstalled the hub I used a small amount of HondaBond to seal the hub asy to the knuckle, since the splash shield had a lip to keep the water out. Probably overkill.

I would check out http://www.danoland.com/nsxgarage/brakes/track/track.htm

DanO has great pictures on this.

HTH,
LArryB

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by gobble:
Can you think of a parts dept that may stock the boots (rather than having to order it)? I've called Tracy and AOB and neither have it.

I would try Davis Acura in Langhorne, PA or Basch Acura Service in Phoenix.

One other point regarding the splash guards. If you've never experienced problems with brakes overheating, I wouldn't bother removing them...

 

[gobble]

I've never had brake problems with the NSX but my track experience with this car has been limited to Road America and Gingerman. I'm doing Blackhawk tommorrow which is very hard on brakes. I've had problems with my other cars there. On top of that, my wife is going to try driving so the car will be doing double duty. Maybe I just worry too much.