GM Declares Bankruptcy Imminent After $4.2 Billion Third Quarter Loss
- Thread starter Timpo
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Or incredibly desperate. I watched the financial industry and Treasury Secretary get down on their knees and it worked so there is precedence for begging like a beggar.
That said I am really conflicted about this one. No doubt this will be painful for the US Auto industry and they (well at least Ford/GM) has come a long ways in the last 18 months - but - I just don't see anyway to avoid the inevitable and I fear this will be good money after bad. Maybe after the 2 Trillion we have ponied up / put at risk for all the other financial companies this doesn't look like much but I haven't seen the taxpayer/consumer benefit much from the airline bailout in the long run. Economics tell us that cars WILL be built in the US. All major foreign companies do today. I just don't see how the taxpayer should get involved on this one. It is a tough call and I don't blame them if they do - just don't think long term it helps anyone and the stock market has already priced in bankruptcy.
Didn't know that these union auto workers are getting $75.00 hr.?
No wonder there going under. Overpaid labor with low productivity and building cheap crap. What took so long? Should have been delared bankrupt 10-15 years ago.
Paying out that kind of salary, no wonder companies out source or just relocate out of the country.
Note: I do own a GMC Yukon XL, so I'm speaking from experience.
I hate to say it, but I think government should stay out of any bail out of auto industries. I would say since 1974, all American auto manufactures have been building garbage for the most part. They should have taken notes and learned from the Japanese manufactures.
No wonder there going under. Overpaid labor with low productivity and building cheap crap. What took so long? Should have been delared bankrupt 10-15 years ago. Paying out that kind of salary, no wonder companies out source or just relocate out of the country.
Note: I do own a GMC Yukon XL, so I'm speaking from experience.
I hate to say it, but I think government should stay out of any bail out of auto industries. I would say since 1974, all American auto manufactures have been building garbage for the most part. They should have taken notes and learned from the Japanese manufactures.
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Didn't know that these union auto workers are getting $75.00 hr.?
Note: I do own a GMC Yukon XL, so I'm speaking from experience.
A buddy of mine use to work at Borg Warner. They build transmissions and timing assemblies. He was making 100k a year to load parts in a machine.
Ghetto finger. LOL
Anyone else just hear that?
HAd to mute the TV as I was on the phone, sewer back up repairs underway. What did I miss?
I did. It was the crickets.
+1
it's hard to be sympathetic to their cause for a number of reasons - among the biggest for me is that gm currently has 8,000 workers in the job bank.
seems to me the heads of the companies have taken the position that if they file for bankruptcy, the entire industry's jobs evaporate overnight. while i imagine there will be layoffs / rightsizing, i don't believe the auto companies and all of their suppliers, etc, will shut down; they'll tighten up,
but the quality shops will survive.
i think if any / all of the auto mfg do declare bk, there will be a pretty good hit to the US economy, but with be-focused efforts, we'll get through it.
As a Union member (not by choice) who had to take it in the rear during Delta's BK I am horrified that the UAW has said they will not give up One Dime, One Nickel or One Penny. We negotiated with the company and came up with a new crappy contract including a 30% pay cut and other benefits and work rules that dramatically decreased my Quality of Life as a pilot on Reserve (pager). The alternative was to let the BK Judge impose a new contract. I just can't believe the UAW won't even talk to Management.
F Them! Let them go into BK and have their "new" contract imposed on them. They won't make $100k or even $50k putting parts in machines anywhere else.
When they liquidate, I have Dibs on the ZR-1 program.
F Them! Let them go into BK and have their "new" contract imposed on them. They won't make $100k or even $50k putting parts in machines anywhere else.
When they liquidate, I have Dibs on the ZR-1 program.
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Some guy ranting about how minority car dealer owners are somehow being effected greater than the rest of them and how the deserve special treatment. Little odd to me.
I watched for about 3 hours yesterday, the misinformation from the auto exec's, particularly Wagoner, is galling. He claimed the union has taken a drastic pay cut - by nearly 50%. No they didn't. The entry wage for new-hires was reduced and is now about 50% of the senior-level wage. But no employee took a pay cut. And even Malally conceded that it will take "many" years for the workforce to turn over enough for any substantive labor cost reductions.
Wagoner also stated outright that had the credit crisis not happened, GM would not be in trouble. F-you, Wagoner. I went to the GM website yesterday, over the past four years GM lost $65b ($71b in losses versus $6b in profits). GM bond rating were at CC- at the end of 2007, well before the credit crisis started. GM's total liabilities today exceed $171 and they have negative $110b in net worth (assets minus liabilities).
I can't believe at Wagoner hasn't been fired - he has presided over the worst performance of any auto company ever. At least the other 2 execs are both new to their respective jobs (about 1 year on the job) and both came from outside the auto industry. They took on the problem of fixing broken companies. Wagoner doesn't seem to want to admit that GM has been broken for years.
Wagoner also stated outright that had the credit crisis not happened, GM would not be in trouble. F-you, Wagoner. I went to the GM website yesterday, over the past four years GM lost $65b ($71b in losses versus $6b in profits). GM bond rating were at CC- at the end of 2007, well before the credit crisis started. GM's total liabilities today exceed $171 and they have negative $110b in net worth (assets minus liabilities).
I can't believe at Wagoner hasn't been fired - he has presided over the worst performance of any auto company ever. At least the other 2 execs are both new to their respective jobs (about 1 year on the job) and both came from outside the auto industry. They took on the problem of fixing broken companies. Wagoner doesn't seem to want to admit that GM has been broken for years.
I think many people feel similarly - f-you if you don't want to help address the situation at all. Shareholders have lost 90% of their value. Bond holders have lost 70% so far (and the value of GM bonds is continuing to fall). I think GM would have far more success in getting this money if they came into the hearing by saying:
1) Management pay will be capped at $250k for the next 2 years.
2) Employees will take a 20% across-the-board pay cut.
3) We are eliminating Buick, Hummer and SAAB, which collectively account for less than 10% of our total sales.
4) We are eliminating 4000 of our 6000 dealers. Many are multi-line dealers so not all will go out of business.
5) Our senior creditors have agreed to extend repayment dates by 2 years.
6) We will replace our BOD, CEO, COO and CFO.
7) We are asking the gov't and the people for $25b out of a total of $100b of cuts and restructuring.
What I am hearing is:
1) We plan to keep doing everything the same
2) You give us $25b or else all hell will break loose.
Well, thank you, Steve. I don't want to see GM or any of the Detriot-3 go down the tubes but GM in particular seems to be wedged between the twin pillars of inept management and union-intransigence.
The Ship is sinking..........
Having flown in a private jet to request money isn't helping either...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html?iref=topnews#cnnSTCVideo
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html?iref=topnews#cnnSTCVideo
Didn't know that these union auto workers are getting $75.00 hr.?
are you talking abou tthe comparison of the big 3's costs vs toyota like they had on a couple news channels?
i believe they were comparing the over all cost of what the company has to pay per hour per employee for the long run, the big 3 with the unions and i hear some quite insane retirement packages, and loads of bennefits it costs them 75 or 78 dollars per hour just to have thier average employee's.
VS toyota which pays 35 per hour for the overall expenses, PLUS toyota isnt begging for money in washington right now, how ironic
plus toyota isnt laying off tons of employees and shutting plants left and right. when i was reading some random tundra stuff i came across a news article that at the tundra/sequoia plant instead of laying off people, they continued to pay thier regular salary to do community service type stuff around the area to clean up the community, before going back to work when they reopen the factory to pump out the 2009 models(which is suppose to be this month)
One more thing to add.
According to GM and Vancouver Sun:
"Financially battered General Motors says it remains fully committed to keeping its name on GM Place in Vancouver and staying on as a national partner of the 2010 Olympics"
Come on now. How are you going to ask for a bail out and at the same breath plan on being a sponsor at the 2010 Olympics?
According to GM and Vancouver Sun:
"Financially battered General Motors says it remains fully committed to keeping its name on GM Place in Vancouver and staying on as a national partner of the 2010 Olympics"
Come on now. How are you going to ask for a bail out and at the same breath plan on being a sponsor at the 2010 Olympics?
It is really hard to feel sorry for these guys. They have known for 35 years that the cars they make are inferior. All they had to do is make a product as good as the Japanese or the Germans. They haven't been able to do that in 35 years!!
For eg, Hyundai came to USA in 1986. That first car - the excel was a POS. But it got them some sales. Since then Hyundai has been focus on improving their prodcut cycle and their quality. In 22 years they are producing good quality cars. They might not be Lexus quality but they are definetly better than the American sedans. It took them 22 years to go from 0 to player in the US auto market. In those 22 years the big 3 have dropped in market share. Their quality still hasn't caught up to the Europeans! Many companies have tried to "SAVE" chyrsler and given up.
IMHO let the free market decide. The free market has already said Bye Bye to Chrysler. Thats how capitalism works!!
For eg, Hyundai came to USA in 1986. That first car - the excel was a POS. But it got them some sales. Since then Hyundai has been focus on improving their prodcut cycle and their quality. In 22 years they are producing good quality cars. They might not be Lexus quality but they are definetly better than the American sedans. It took them 22 years to go from 0 to player in the US auto market. In those 22 years the big 3 have dropped in market share. Their quality still hasn't caught up to the Europeans! Many companies have tried to "SAVE" chyrsler and given up.
IMHO let the free market decide. The free market has already said Bye Bye to Chrysler. Thats how capitalism works!!
Looks like it's over to me. They're not getting a handout from our current government, and they're probably not going to make it the 3 months until Obama takes office.
I think it's probably a good thing though. They need to FIX their problems, not just burn more money to stay up X more months.
I think it's probably a good thing though. They need to FIX their problems, not just burn more money to stay up X more months.
you know I thought this current enviorment was going to help me get some good deals on cars. NOW I think I may have been thinking small. I bet these private jets are going get CHEAP.
I hope you have a pilot rating to fly one of those bad boys. The cost of having a captian who isn't smoking the weed is the expensive part. :biggrin:
My wifes cousin is rated for the Lear and the Gulf stream. He flew up in a Lear for lunch a while back. When he took off he flew that bad bitch about 200 feet off the ground just past the end of the runway then pulled back and flew straight up in the air at a ~60-70 degree angle. I have never seen a rate of climb like that so rapid. I have it on video somewhere. It was amazing.
I was looking into net jets last year. It really is not that expensive if you figure in your time. I think something like net jets would be way more cost effective than owning your own jet. There are some really sweet planes out now but they aren't quick enough to keep up with commercial and thus are forced into airspace much lower where they don't operate as efficiently.
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