Frankfurt: Honda confirms 'new NSX'

[BATMANs]

I think you may want to look at the Porsche line. The 993's and 964's have stabalized and in the case of certain models gone up significantly over the last 3 years.

IF there is a new NSX, and it's MR, I think it may cause a dip in prices (not through the floor though - it won't set a new bottom price); but if it's a different layout, you may see prices rise a bit with renewed interest in the car, as it will be seen as a pure or true NSX (like the aircooled 911s).

But really, who the hell knows?

If the 'replacement' NSX is a front engine car then it's not going to replace the current NSX.

And it may indeed spark interest in the older NSX with the engine in the proper location.

People that have written off the older NSX will revisit and find out that there are alot of power mods from stroker engines to turbos to blowers and will see the appreciable power increases that can bring the NSX to current or beyond current power (if not power to weight ratio) levels.

This in turn may give a slight bump in the NSX demand and subsequent value.

Like the FD to the RX8 and the 993 to the 996....

 

[NSX69]

Acura NSX Successor Taking Shape
Ahead-of-Its-Time Honda Dualnote Concept Provides Powertrain Clues

At Honda's recent shareholders' meeting in Tokyo, a middle-aged man stood up during the Q&A session and asked whether the company was going to reinterpret a small, sporty car like the Beat for the 21st century. "While I am still young enough to enjoy sports driving, I'd like to drive something compact and sporty, something like an updated Beat. What are the chances of that?" he said poignantly.

Honda CEO Takanobu Ito took the microphone and replied without hesitation. "We are currently developing a successor to the Beat, a car that anyone can easily have fun with. Expect to see it in showrooms within the next few years." The comment dominated the headlines the next day. Strangely, Ito's subsequent utterance didn't get nearly as much play, but potentially was much more significant to those pining away for a road-going Honda supercar: "In addition to the Beat successor, we are also making significant progress with plans for an exotic sports car."

Just 6 months ago, Ito told a media gathering that Honda felt compelled to re-launch a high-performance sports car like the NSX, but he didn't go so far as to say it was definitely happening. But it was the 1st time Ito had actually uttered the telling phrase "making significant progress with plans to..." build a successor.

To get a clearer idea of exactly what Honda has planned, a source close to Honda suggested we go back a decade and re-examine the Dualnote, a gasoline-hybrid, all-wheel-drive concept car first shown way back at the 2001 Tokyo Motor Show. Powered by a midship-mounted (Japanese-speak for mid-engined) 3.5-liter V-6 with Honda's IMA hybrid system, the 4-door concept's front wheels were propelled by in-wheel electric motors, while the rears were driven by the engine, a combination that reportedly generated more than 400 horsepower. The Dualnote was so advanced back then that all Honda did was adapt the drive system (minus the in-wheel electric motors) to the soon-to-be-launched Legend, thus creating the SH-AWD system.

Ten years down the track, Honda is still perfecting that original AWD hardware, which includes the large-capacity engine with hybrid combination, motors that propel the fronts, and V-6-driven rears. Another insider tells us the car's target specifications have already been decided. "Honda wants to build a supercar that breaks the mold while creating a totally new technological package," he said. So what we are going to see is a further development of that 2001 concept, but adapted for today's fuel economy and emissions expectations.

It's not a car that rests on its engine-generated power alone. The extra herbs produced by the front-mounted electric motors will make the next-generation NSX a very quick car. "It has to be fast to live up to the expectations of a future NSX, right!?" pleads our insider. He went onto say that a record Nurburgring lap time is not Honda's target. "But be rest assured, this car will be the top in its class, and the powerful engine-motor combination will achieve that result."

Our sources inform us that Honda is working on a VTEC V-6 engine displacing 3.5 to 3.7 liters that boasts a cylinder head with an integrated exhaust manifold and valveless throttle. Obviously it will be of the Atkinson cycle variety. The 2-motor setup will be powered by lithium-ion batteries and employ a plug-in recharge system to minimize battery weight.

The original Dualnote system incorporated an engine that drove an on-board generator powering the motors, a system considered inherently inefficient. By fitting an all-new continuous current motor to the new concept, engineers have been able to minimize electricity consumption while at the same time creating a gutsy torque-generating, high-revving system. "This system will be the secret to the NSX successor's incredible pace," suggests our source.

One other critical aspect of the new car will be its weight-saving aluminum body, a process carried over from the first NSX. And the final part of the package is price. Our sources tell us that Honda wants to bring the car to the U.S. as an Acura by 2014 for under $100,000 -- a sticker price designed to rival that of the Nissan GT-R.

 

[GBL1]

Not holding my breath...I think Oprah has a better chance of getting Steadman to marry her than we have of Honda coming out with a successor to the NSX.

Wait for the news to report that Hell just froze over, because that's when the next NSX will arrive...

 

[WingZ]

LOL You beat me to it NSX69:biggrin:

More and more taking shape. Nice to hear it's being referred to as an exotic definitely going to be mid engined this time. Please don't let them mess up the style:frown:

 

[NetViper]

That dual-note was UGLY.

 

[BATMANs]

I rather buy the RX-9 than that fugly thing.

 

[N Spec]

One other critical aspect of the new car will be its weight-saving aluminum body, a process carried over from the first NSX.

Sounds like they are re-using the original NSX platform? That would be the most efficient way to go, saves on research cost and devepment...

-Updated chasis with modern body panels, but not radically new
-New V6 in the original place, beefed up transmission driving rear wheels.
-Electric motor in the front hood to drive the front wheels and achieve 4WD and assist in 0-60 acceleration

Could perhaps even achieve closer to 50:50 weight distribution. One can dream :wink:

 

[WingZ]

That dual-note was UGLY.

Yep even for back then. Thankfully we'd just be getting the underpinnings.

I rather buy the RX-9 than that fugly thing.

That is pretty sweet looking Bats but they just showed a picture of the Dualnote as reference to what guts will be.

Sounds like they are re-using the original NSX platform? That would be the most efficient way to go, saves on research cost and devepment...

-Updated chasis with modern body panels, but not radically new
-New V6 in the original place, beefed up transmission driving rear wheels.
-Electric motor in the front hood to drive the front wheels and achieve 4WD and assist in 0-60 acceleration

Could perhaps even achieve closer to 50:50 weight distribution. One can dream :wink:

A new chassis would be so nice. Imagine the increased rigidity after 20 years. I thought the motors would be in the hubs??

Don't miss that Ito said exotic guys so hopefully they'll find some exotic looks for this one. Under $100 to compete price wise with the GTR just hopefully better looking.

Anyone know if by having wheels in the front they can circumvent higher hp for fast 0-60

 

[interna]

 

[Juice]

Nice match up Interna!

 

[gdae]

Re: post #102, by NSX69:

I sorta want to know more about the updated Beat:redface:.

 

[interna]

Nice match up Interna!

I cant remember where but I do recall Ito or someone mentioning that the HSC was the intended replacement for the NSX but got axed. So my belief is that this is the platform and/or size of the next car we will be seeing. I have no knowledge of the kind of power figures those hub motors will produce but I suspect that we wont be seeing a 400HP V6 realistically. I do however see a possible 300-350hp V6 being put in.

Reason for the comparison was that it screamed Porsche 911 and Panamera to me. A 2 door sports and an executive saloon that both shared tech. I hope this is a route they take because Acura needs a complete overhaul of their line-up.

It kind of sucks to an extent that the HSV was designed by the same chassis engineer who designed the NSX chassis. Result of that was a more rigid design and also accommodating a front mid-engine layout with rear wheel drive that was far superior to the NSX. Sad that this will not be the replacement but I'll be optimistic about it, and know for a fact that they have this car laying around somewhere for us to see in the future.

 

[Honcho]

The HSC never even made it past the concept stage. The concept car was simply a NA2 NSX chassis with different body panels and a different interior. The model was only minimally functional and really just intended to give the public a visual glimpse of the design direction for the next NSX, not a production-ready design concept. The project was never pursued due to a lukewarm response from the public and belief inside Honda that the concept was not enough of an improvement over the existing NSX to be worthwhile.

The original Dual-Note concept used a V6 producing 300 hp (much like the NSX at the time) and two wheel motors producing 50 hp each for a total of 400 hp (300 + 50 + 50). It is a brilliant concept worthy of the Honda of old, but in 2001 it was not workable from a production standpoint.

Fast forward 10 years and now the technology seems to be maturing to the point where this is possible. The Dual-Note powertrain developed into the SH-AWD system currently in use across the Acura product line. I have this system in my RDX and can attest to its amazing performance. All Honda did was replace the electric wheel motors with a centrally-mounted electric differential that distributes engine torque via a driveshaft to each wheel. While the wheel motor is a novel concept, I suspect Honda will instead use the proven tech of the centrally-mounted electric SH-AWD differential, but instead of hooking it to a driveshaft, it will run off of a co-located motor. This will also have the added benefit of keeping the heavy motor on the centerline of the car instead of at the wheel hubs. Where the driveshaft normally would go under the middle of the car, you will see the lithium-ion battery pack. This again keeps weight low and in the middle of the car.

This layout offers some incredible performance and economy potential. Just think of your NSX having two modes: "Sport" and "Eco".

In "Eco" mode, the the car adjusts power to only that necessary to maintain current speed, with the front electric motor wheels providing 75% or more of the driving power- much like the current SH-AWD system. At the same time, the iVTEC V6-IMA part of the package will use VCM code to shut down to run on 2 or 3 cylinders- just enough to keep the battery pack charged and providing 10-25% drive to the rear wheels. Finally, the engine would reduce power and emissions further by switching to either a third "econ" VTEC lobe or a fully variable cam. On a 3000 lb, all aluminum car, I bet you could see hwy mpg of at least 50 using this configuration. Thus you could cruise the interstate in your 400 hp exotic NSX with the same fuel economy as a Prius.

In "Sport" mode, VCM and the "econ" VTEC shut off, giving you the full power of the V6 and VTEC at the rear wheels. Also, the SH-AWD logic reverts the power balance between the wheels to maximize acceleration while utilizing the full 100 hp of the front motor. Butterflly valves open up in the mufflers to give you the full effect of the 9000 rpm V6. Your NSX is now a 400 hp AWD firebreathing beast.

Pretty cool, huh? I say go for it Honda. This is the best idea you've had since the original NSX. If the styling is right, this could be a game changer for the industry.

I cant remember where but I do recall Ito or someone mentioning that the HSC was the intended replacement for the NSX but got axed. So my belief is that this is the platform and/or size of the next car we will be seeing. I have no knowledge of the kind of power figures those hub motors will produce but I suspect that we wont be seeing a 400HP V6 realistically. I do however see a possible 300-350hp V6 being put in.

Reason for the comparison was that it screamed Porsche 911 and Panamera to me. A 2 door sports and an executive saloon that both shared tech. I hope this is a route they take because Acura needs a complete overhaul of their line-up.

It kind of sucks to an extent that the HSV was designed by the same chassis engineer who designed the NSX chassis. Result of that was a more rigid design and also accommodating a front mid-engine layout with rear wheel drive that was far superior to the NSX. Sad that this will not be the replacement but I'll be optimistic about it, and know for a fact that they have this car laying around somewhere for us to see in the future.

 

[WingZ]

Hey counselor you think they'll use both IMA and the front motor?

Engine question?

The new V6 will be either a 3.5 or 3.7 right? Current 3.7 is making 305. Old NSX did 290hp from a 3.2 since what 96 ( 97 MY though ) for them not to have the tech to do at least a 100hp per liter engine would be an embarrassment. The new engine should at least be putting out 350-370 depending on liter with current tech. I mean they were able to get 120hp on the S2000 more than 10 years back.

Just being realistic and not optimistic on this as anything else would be going backwards?? If they can do the two 50hp motors upfront that would put us at 450-470. If possible a 25hp IMA as well could put us at 475-495 hp.

I say this because of the price point near $100k would deem more than 400hp for a Japanese car. Germans could get away with this ( Audi R8 ) but the Japanese always offer more for the money.

Geez HSC is looking pretty dated and the 458 stole so many of it's lines I'm not sure what styling we'll see at this point.

 

[Honcho]

I think they are going to use IMA not to help drive the rear, but to act as a power source for the front motor- kind of like a big alternator. The battery pack will be small compared to a Prius, for example, and will act more like a buffer than a single source of power for the front wheels. Basically the batteries kick in when the IMA isn't making enough juice to run the front motor. I think this is the point the article is trying to make, and is what is so innovative about this system. It gives you the benefit of hybrid electric power but keeps the weight down.

As for the V6, it's still a big question mark to me. Given the green bent of Honda and the extra 100 horses they draw from the motors, I think we're going to see a smaller V6 than the current lineup. 2.8 to 3.2 would be my guess. This keeps emissions down and mpg up on just the engine alone. The layout is the big question. Will this be a J-series derived platform? The J37A4 does exactly what they need for a new NSX- VTEC on intake and exhaust, but it uses a lot of gas and is only 82 hp/L. They would have to reduce displacement, reduce emissions and somehow raise power to 100 hp/L n a SOHC engine. It's possible, but difficult.

The other way they could go is with the supposed new V6 series, which has been rumored now for YEARS without anything to show for it. Will it be DOHC? That adds cost. Advanced VTEC maybe, finally? Again, cha-ching $$$. Still, Honda has said that the new V6 will as a series be generally smaller displacement than the J-series, matching power through design efficiency instead.

Small displacement isn't necessarily a bad thing. One thing to keep in mind is that the main complaint about those small Honda V6's (including the 3.0 NSX even) is that the torque off the line was weak. Sure, once the engine is wound up it's great, but customers wanted that bone crushing jolt you get in a torquey V8. Honda's solution was bigger and bigger engines until now we have the (relatively) gas-guzzling J37. The electric motor is a game changer. The torque generated by these things is MONSTROUS. Like VTEC, now you have the best of both worlds. To give you that back-in-the seat push, you have the motors to launch the car off the line. For the high-winding wail of the Honda V6, you have a small displacement V6 howling in full VTEC to deliver power in the high speed range.

Thus, my guess about the V6 is the following:

J-series derived (for cost reasons)
2.8 to 3.2 liter
8000 to 9000 rpm redline.
100 hp/L
VTEC on intake and exhaust
VCM

Anything else (A-VTEC, DOHC/SOHC, etc.) your guess is as good as mine.

Hey counselor you think they'll use both IMA and the front motor?

Engine question?

The new V6 will be either a 3.5 or 3.7 right? Current 3.7 is making 305. Old NSX did 290hp from a 3.2 since what 96 ( 97 MY though ) for them not to have the tech to do at least a 100hp per liter engine would be an embarrassment. The new engine should at least be putting out 350-370 depending on liter with current tech. I mean they were able to get 120hp on the S2000 more than 10 years back.

Just being realistic and not optimistic on this as anything else would be going backwards?? If they can do the two 50hp motors upfront that would put us at 450-470. If possible a 25hp IMA as well could put us at 475-495 hp.

I say this because of the price point near $100k would deem more than 400hp for a Japanese car. Germans could get away with this ( Audi R8 ) but the Japanese always offer more for the money.

Geez HSC is looking pretty dated and the 458 stole so many of it's lines I'm not sure what styling we'll see at this point.

 

[interna]

I think you've nailed the engine prediction on the dot Honcho. Sounds something very realistic by Honda and something that at least I can imagine seeing pushed out the pipeline. Now I'm curious to as if there has been any mention of the position of the engine being rear-mid or front-mid layout.

Personally only because Im biased towards the HSV, I'm hoping that this all correlates to using the HSV chassis only because that car does have that exotic look to it, has a front-mid layout. Design is basically complete. Throw in the DOHC V6 IMA SH-AWD platform and call it a day.

 

[WingZ]

I think they are going to use IMA not to help drive the rear, but to act as a power source for the front motor- kind of like a big alternator. The battery pack will be small compared to a Prius, for example, and will act more like a buffer than a single source of power for the front wheels. Basically the batteries kick in when the IMA isn't making enough juice to run the front motor. I think this is the point the article is trying to make, and is what is so innovative about this system. It gives you the benefit of hybrid electric power but keeps the weight down.

As for the V6, it's still a big question mark to me. Given the green bent of Honda and the extra 100 horses they draw from the motors, I think we're going to see a smaller V6 than the current lineup. 2.8 to 3.2 would be my guess. This keeps emissions down and mpg up on just the engine alone. The layout is the big question. Will this be a J-series derived platform? The J37A4 does exactly what they need for a new NSX- VTEC on intake and exhaust, but it uses a lot of gas and is only 82 hp/L. They would have to reduce displacement, reduce emissions and somehow raise power to 100 hp/L n a SOHC engine. It's possible, but difficult.

The other way they could go is with the supposed new V6 series, which has been rumored now for YEARS without anything to show for it. Will it be DOHC? That adds cost. Advanced VTEC maybe, finally? Again, cha-ching $$$. Still, Honda has said that the new V6 will as a series be generally smaller displacement than the J-series, matching power through design efficiency instead.

Small displacement isn't necessarily a bad thing. One thing to keep in mind is that the main complaint about those small Honda V6's (including the 3.0 NSX even) is that the torque off the line was weak. Sure, once the engine is wound up it's great, but customers wanted that bone crushing jolt you get in a torquey V8. Honda's solution was bigger and bigger engines until now we have the (relatively) gas-guzzling J37. The electric motor is a game changer. The torque generated by these things is MONSTROUS. Like VTEC, now you have the best of both worlds. To give you that back-in-the seat push, you have the motors to launch the car off the line. For the high-winding wail of the Honda V6, you have a small displacement V6 howling in full VTEC to deliver power in the high speed range.

Thus, my guess about the V6 is the following:

J-series derived (for cost reasons)
2.8 to 3.2 liter
8000 to 9000 rpm redline.
100 hp/L
VTEC on intake and exhaust
VCM

Anything else (A-VTEC, DOHC/SOHC, etc.) your guess is as good as mine.

Actually at this point what's been mostly confirmed is a new 3.5 and this engine is supposedly for Acura ( it was mentioned for the next gen TL ). This new engine should debut in the next RL 2012MY. It was also mentioned to be making less hp though.

Remember most reports have mentioned/slipped that a 3.5 will be used for the next NSX. If your asking close to 100k for a car then DOHC better be there. They'll need to make this version at least the most high performance that they have so expect everything to be thrown at it vs what we see in the RL and TL.

This could still be a green and efficient engine and produce 100hp per liter. They said they wouldn't chase Ferrari at the cost of efficiency. Ford's 3.7 is rated at 305hp ( same as TL ) but at mpg is 19/31. Have to say Honda will beat this with NSX 3.5 as again anything less would unacceptable in a $100k car.

They know they need to compete and just 300 hp from a 3liter won't cut it.

 

[desertwind]

Report: Honda R&D boss supposedly confirms work on NSX replacement
Posted: 14 Oct 2011 08:33 AM PDT

Honda has been under the spotlight for quite some time now with a lot of rumors circulating about its replacement to the famous halo car, the NSX (you can read all of the here). And to make things a bit better or worse, word is that Honda’s R&D boss Mibe Toshihiro has confirmed that an NSX is in development. The catch is however, that the replacement will most likely either be a hybrid or an EV NSX replacement.

“We are now at a point where we can consider the next generation of electric and hybrid vehicles. President Ito has already mentioned a new NSX, and we have looked at that in the R&D department,” said Toshihiro. “It would be an interesting project — electric or hybrid vehicles can be fun as well as economical.”

Despite the positive note that Honda is working on a halo car, the rumor that it will either be a hybrid or an EV is a bit disappointing, especially since Lexus is asking for a competitor with its LF-A supercar. Additionally, some other reports said that Honda’s president Takanobu Ito said that the next-generation NSX won’t follow the same formula as the original. Well, that doesn’t sound too promising.


To put things in perspective, Honda once said on the original press release for the NSX that “Cars, no matter their market niche, should be amply endowed with a large dose of driving fun.” The NSX was the purest embodiment of Honda’s corporate philosophy, one that put Honda on the performance map for sure and gained them their enthusiast following. But as we’ve seen already, anything with a hybrid or alternative powertrain is far from truly fun. So the new NSX sounds like it’s shaping up to be something that will fall short to filling the same shoes and do the same justice that the original NSX did. At which point, is it even worth it?

Boy, have the times changed. Either way, it will definitely be interesting to see what Honda has to show for its rumors and reports when the Tokyo Motor Show rolls around.

- By: Chris Chin

Source: Inside Line

 

[WingZ]

He's the second to say the car maybe at the Tokyo show next month. Which if true would mean the car is further along than they've led us to believe. Which isn't surprising.

 

[Caustic]

Besides the "I'll believe it when I see it", I'm having a hard time getting excited about a hybrid/EV NSX. I just don't see this going well...

 

[MR-DREAM]

Perhaps I am missing the point here, but I believe Acura would do a great disservice to their brand if they actually released a sport vehicle related to the NSx without it being mid-engine and rear-drive, not to mention with cutting edge technology and stunning looks! IMHO , the Porsche 911 gt2 and the Nissan gtr perform wonderfully on track, but lack the head turning exotic beauty of the NSx! Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder

 

[Nukem]

90's was Honda's prime years. To me Honda leadership doesn't seem too excited about their own products. Like we are designing a car cause we have to. With that attitude any product you put out won't compare to your competitors.

 

[kookoo4nsx]

I think we can all agree Honda really hit the ball out of the park with the NSX.
It helped create a buzz at the dealership, broke new ground technically(which helped them on other models) and created a loyal following. How many of us have owned 2-3 Honda products?

Where they screwed up is with not coming out with a NA3. Refresh body style for 06, pretty up the engine bay, spiff the interior and a bump in HP and displacement. Then they could have followed with a NA3T in '09 which would address the high performance/track enthusiast crowd. If you think about it, this is EXACTLY what Porsche does.

When the first NSX came out, it was all about engineering; they carried the water.............now it's the penny pinching accounting department and the senior environmental VP that's calling the shots.

I've seen this over and over at other corporations where they mess with success and it never ends well.

What WE want is something akin to a MP4, GT3 or GTR(on a diet). What "they" want is some sports car watered down with an electric motor that gets 35mpg.

If by chance Honda announces a "replacement" to the NSX, I predict a lot of WHAT WERE THEY THINKING comments from Primers.:frown:

 

[socold57]

looks great they should build this , want one in black

 

[GBL1]

the Porsche 911 gt2 and the Nissan gtr perform wonderfully on track, but lack the head turning exotic beauty of the NSx!

+10

Porsches are a dime-a-dozen here in Dallas. I call them "belly-button" cars...because EVERYONE has one.

You see one go by & it's as exciting as a Lexus sedan...boring.

GTR: while more rare for sure, they are WAY too BIG!!! Sports cars are small, IMHO...YMMV.