Fair Market value

[Craig Stafford]

What are some reasonable ways for determining the value (for sale purposes)of an NSX?I have a nice '91 I'd like to sell.I've scoured the "for sale" sections of this and other sites and several auto-trade magazines and tried to be reasonable about my pricing.Yet prospective buyers responding from this site always consider the price too high.I'd like to know why there's a discrepancy in the prices I see for comparable cars and the expectations of the prospective buyers I've encountered to date.
Stafford

 

[Fun2romein]

Craig, the true value of your 91 nsx is impacted by numerous factors and can only be determined when you and a ready welling and able buyer come to term on price. My suggestion to you would be to price the vehicle based on what you consider it to be worth, knowing well that it is your personal assessed value based on research off this site others as well as blue book values and often deemed high by a buyer, and host offers without offence as to how low or high they may be. Good luck!

 

[mlambert890]

Also, you have to keep in mind that with any high end car there will be a lot of ballsy dreamer types. They figure that if they keep screaming "that's too high! too expensive! too much!", eventually someone will believe it and they'll get a deal they will then brag about.

I'm sure if you post the details of your car here, along with some photos, the senior forum members will help give a fair idea of what would be reasonable.

 

[matteni]

I have followed this board and the listserv for years. I believe we have a small market of potential buyers for our cars and the biggest thing is time - i.e. how long are you willing to wait/show your car?

If you are looking for a quick sale - you may need to expect significantly less then someone willing to wait months to get their min asking price.

Good luck to you. Especially after the sale when you start missing you NSX.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[nsxtasy]

I believe the pricing section of the FAQ (click here) is an accurate guide to the fair market value of NSXs for both buyers and sellers.

However, I would not be surprised to hear that prospective buyers might try to negotiate a seller downward, and might say that the selling price is too high as a reason for lowering it. That doesn't mean that they are right. I'm sure I don't need to point out why.

If you would like to post a description of your car, I would be happy to tell you what the FAQ would indicate as a fair market value, and whether (and why) I would consider any additional adjustment not indicated there might also be appropriate. If you would prefer that I do so in private e-mail rather than in public, feel free to contact me that way instead.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 26 January 2003).]

 

[NSXaholic]

Originally posted by Craig Stafford:
What are some reasonable ways for determining the value (for sale purposes)of an NSX? I have a nice '91 I'd like to sell.

I have a couple of suggestions, some of which might complement what you've done already:

(1) check autotrader.com, yahoo.com and dupontregistry.com. I find these sites to be very comprehensive in terms of NSX listings. Depending on when you check them, and also on the ebbs and flows of the general NSX market, there may some variability in the listings, but I find legit sellers, in addition to posting on NSXPrime, typically post on one or more of these three forums.

(2) Check on eBay. Although not many transactions are consummated on eBay, it is a gross myth that transactions are not consumamted at all as a result of eBay postings. In fact, eBay is the number one seller of automobiles in the nation. And that is only based on actual deals that get done (not including all the transactions that get accounted for outside of the system). I ask you to check it because (A) it gives you a good benchmark for the quality of your car versus others being sold in the same vintage (through the numerous pictures and descriptions) and (B) it has "Buy It Now prices that also provide a perspective on what sellers are seeking.

(3) Talk to NSX owners who have recently sold their cars. You can check them out on the NSXPrime Marketplace forum. Review the quality of their cars against what you are selling. Options, condition, service history, usage (track versus everyday driving), etc. are all factors to consider, and which will effect resale value.

(4) Talk to dealers. They are in the market on a regular basis. See what they say, and what they would give you for you car -- both for a trade-in, and/or for a straight purchase, if they do that. Obviously factor in that the purchase price will be at a 10% - 20% discount based on what the spread they are seeking to get.

Originally posted by Craig Stafford:
...and tried to be reasonable about my pricing.Yet prospective buyers responding from this site always consider the price too high.I'd like to know why there's a discrepancy in the prices I see for comparable cars and the expectations of the prospective buyers I've encountered to date.
Stafford

I'm surprised at this. The purveyors of this forum are (by and large) educated, serious, enthusiasts. Large discrepencies between bid-ask might mean that one -- or both -- sides have slightly unrealistic expectations (see Point 1

).

If you think you are not getting a fair price for your car, have you asked them why they are offering a substantially lower price? Are their comparable cars at their price point that they have benchmarked their quote against? Have you checked to see they are serious buyers? All of these are obviously factors that you want to have a handle on when negotiating your car.

Obviously, selling a car is an art, not a science. A depressed market, deteriorating financial conditions, and a glut of exotic options has complicated the situation even more. Moreover, your own individual constraints on time and financial position will also affect the negotiations.

But the bottom line is this: do the research on your own car well. Once you have a realistic understanding of the market value of the car, and you truly believe it is worth it, then -- unless you are keen to sell it off quickly -- stick to your guns and wait for the right buyer. They will surely come.

Just some general thoughts. Hope you found them useful.

Regards.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSXaholic:
(1) check autotrader.com, yahoo.com and dupontregistry.com.
(2) Check on eBay.
(3) Talk to NSX owners who have recently sold their cars.
(4) Talk to dealers.

These are good suggestions, albeit with some limitations. (For example, many Autotrader prices tend to be higher than market, in some cases because they are asking prices that the seller expects to negotiate downward from, and in others because the seller has unrealistic expectations; eBay prices tend to be lower than market, IMO reflecting a higher level of risk in that market.)

I stay familiar with NSX pricing in various venues and what people are actually paying and getting, and I know that there are others who do so as well, notably Lud and SJJ 28 on this forum. I bet if someone provided a complete and accurate description of a given NSX to the three of us, and asked each of us to provide a single amount that would best represent its market value, that the three numbers we gave would be within $2K of each other.

 

[rrwildman]

Some really great responses which collectively do a good job of addressing this $64K question. Fun2romein probably hit the essense of it most succinctly, but since we don't get charged by the word, I'll try to add something.

The obvious caveat is that, like anything else in life, not everyone you'll be dealing with knows what they're talking about. That said...

It's a complex thing in terms of the huge range of things which impact a SPECIFIC car's "fair market value" (FMV), but it seems to me that it's all in the relationship between the car's intrinsic value / asking price, and the car's "ideal buyer". An ideal buyer is someone who wants exactly what your car offers across all the criteria and is prepared to pay THAT car's FMV. There are lots of potential buyers with very different buying criteria. Charts and stats can get you in a range, but cars and their individual "qualities", their ideal buyers, and their resultant specific FMVs can vary considerably within that range. You can sell the car to its ideal buyer for its true FMV. You can also sell the car to any other prospective buyers who are perhaps looking for something less than what your car offers, but probably not at its true FMV, as they may not be willing to pay for things which aren't a high priority for them. Making it through the pool of possible buyers and finding those "ideal" buyers is of course where the time/timing factor comes into play.

I heavily researched, found, and bought two NSXs in the '91-'94 category in the past 5 years. I had very specific criteria, and they were fairly high. This means that I was only interested in a small percentage of the cars listed for sale at the time. I was looking for an above-average car in several respects. I looked at the post below, and think I'm probably very much like your target, or ideal buyer, so I'll tell you how I see it.

I looked at the following post which (hopefully) describes your car:

>>
One owner '91 NSX,Blk/Blk for sale in the central Kentucky area.19,000 miles.Mint.Speedlines (16"F/17"R) and P-Zeros and competition pads.Otherwise stock.No damage.Garaged.No salt exposure.Serviced twice a year regardless.Excellent condition and very clean.Tranny in excellent condition.$38,500.
>>

From the sound of this, you have an above-average '91 car. For several reasons I'll mention, it would probably be worth on the high side of NOMINAL FMV, if not above it, to a buyer like me.

I was looking for:
1) Low/very low mileage: I'm well aware that an NSX w/50K miles is just getting into its prime. I (a) planned to keep the car forever, and (b) wanted to put all those miles on the car myself. I was looking at <30K, and seriously hoping for <20K miles, and was willing to pay for that.
2) No history of body damage or paint work larger than a rock chip: TRULY good re-paint work is INCREDIBLY difficult to get in my experience, and work that will look good 5+ years later is even rarer. If you can get it, it will normally cost more than many would be willing to pay. I refused to start with any paint work "stories". It was an unacceptable risk to me.
3) Absolutely NO history of significant (to me) modification. Virtually all modifications have potential downsides at BEST, and I didn't want to start with anyone elses bad judgement, experiments, bad workmanship, or "downsides". I wanted one just like God made it.
4) As close to "mint" as possible to find.
5) Zero track time.
6) Properly maintained.
7) Black.

These criteria limited the field of early-model candidates considerably, and since I never wanted a "T", I was strictly looking at the '91-'94 group. It's worth noting that there is no field on the form at KBB for several of my most important criteria. They aren't even considered specifically, but they greatly impacted the specific FMV / what I was willing to pay in the case of the cars I bought.

From what I read, I gather that your car has no body damage / re-paint work. Sounds like no modification history aside from wheels/tires/pads. "Mint", "excellent condition", and "very clean" sound like an above-average car. I consider <20k "very low" mileage for a '91; also "above" average. Sounds like its been driven just enough to keep it in good condition. I'm a little leery of "museum" mileage cars. Cars do not like to just "sit", and it's very difficult to keep one truly prime mechanically that's rarely driven. One-owner is also a plus to some, because there aren't any "stories" that you don't know about. If they believe you, then they believe the car.

Based upon that and the assumption of no other issues, I can assure you that the specific FMV of your car could easily be every penny of what you're asking for it to its target, or ideal buyer. If the car is REALLY as I'm imagining it to be, and I were looking today, I would not have an issue with your price. If I were not finding other cars meeting my criteria within my timeframes (I don't know what's on the market right now), I might even pay a little more to get the car. I'm speaking from the perspective of the target buyer for your car, because I think I've been there - twice.

I'd recommend that if you have some time to find your target buyer, you should keep the price as is. There WILL be ideal buyers out there for your car. I'd be one if I were in the market, and my criteria aren't much different from those of the gentlemen I purchased my cars from. They're out there.

A couple of other points:
a) Some would prefer to have the original wheels with the car if they've been changed to aftermarket. Some people who want showroom stock would perfer to have it look showroom stock, or at least be capable of returning it to showroom stock for sale.
b) With a '91, you'll really need to address the transmission beyond "excellent condition". The snap-ring snafu is an big issue for almost all categories of buyers, and that won't likely change. You'll need to indicate specifically whether or not it's in range, and if so what its disposition is. For a '91 NSX, that about as basic as stating the color of the car. If it has susceptibility to the failure, that WILL impact its specific FMV.

Good luck, and don't discouraged by potential buyers who are not looking for everything your car offers. There are ideal buyers out there for above-average cars. They will be buyers with above-average requirements, and by definition will not be every potential buyer you hear from.

Richard
'93 Blk/Blk

 

[Lud]

Craig - Your price is right, but the market is small. I recommend advertising the car other places if you haven't already done so to try and reach the right buyer who is willing to pay extra for a premium condition car.

 

[Craig Stafford]

Thanks for the replies.All are well thought out and articulate.I have researched many of the venues recommended,ie.,Ebay,AutoTrader,and dealers but I've not spoken with recent sellers.I originally posted the car for sale on this site last fall for $38,500 which is high and so lately I have asked $34,500 in email responses to several buyers posting on the Market section.The two email responses I received offered considerably less(<$30K).So here's the story.

The car is a '91 5-speed Blk/Blk that I bought new from a local dealer in Aug.1991.It has been serviced by the same mechanic at least twice a year regardless of mileage or use.It currently has 19,100 miles on it.Always garaged;never driven on salt;detailed once a year;no kids,pets,and only an occaisonal passenger.I "rebought"the car when I divorced 6 yrs. ago.I love the thing.It's a great machine.But I've caught the racing bug (SCCA) and my race car now consumes my need for speed and my wallet so the NSX sits way too much.I want someone who'll love the car like I do to own it, but I'm not pressed to sell it.

Now,the details.NOT in the snap ring range.Stock except for the Speedlines(16/17)with P-Zeroes(plenty of tread F&R).Everything on the car is in good working condition(radio/tape,windows,AC/heater,trunk and engine bay pistons).The interior is emaculate.The engine,clutch,and brakes are great.I've driven the car at Mid-Ohio twice at track days and we blew away Vettes,Vipers,911's,M3's,etc.,all but a 996 Turbo(caught in the corners lost on the straights).No damage!When we came home all I did was wash it.Service checked before and after both sessions.Front shocks may be wearing but unnoticeable in street driving.I've not replaced the water pump and timing belt because my mechanic insists it's unnecessary.Except for the usual rock chips the paint is excellent(local Subaru dealer would not believe the car was 11yrs.old when I drove it in to look at the WRX that I eventually bought last year).Never hit and no "off-road"excursions(not even at Mid-Ohio).The only negatives are two small areas of "curb rash" on the left front and right rear wheels, both barely noticeble.

So there you have it.I currently have three road cars and a DSR "Radical" race car.I'm "car heavy".I don't drive the NSX enough to keep it around and it deserves to be driven and enjoyed.So,tell me IYHO,what's a fair price to a buyer who really wants an excellent used NSX for a daily driver or a stock version to personally customize?

Stafford

 

[Lud]

$34.5k is a GREAT price. Anyone offering less is a total dreamer and should simply be ignored. Advertise it more widely.

 

[Paul65K]

Originally posted by Lud:
$34.5k is a GREAT price. Anyone offering less is a total dreamer and should simply be ignored. Advertise it more widely.

Absolutely agree with this. The one thing I have learned through the years is that the absolute best situation for all parties is when the RIGHT buyer meets the RIGHT seller. Hang in there and do your best to get the word out!


------------------
97 NSX-T Black/Tan
00 Mercedes 430CLK (Cab)
93 Cadillac Allante (Northstar)
98 GMC Sierra
00 HD Dyna WideGlide
83 Cessna 303 (Crusader)

[This message has been edited by Paul65K (edited 26 January 2003).]

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by Lud:
$34.5k is a GREAT price. Anyone offering less is a total dreamer and should simply be ignored. Advertise it more widely.

I concur as well. The only concern to me is the timing belt & water pump service not having been performed. But that's just me. I wouldn't take any less if I were you, unless I was desperate to sell (as the previous owner of mine was, thus I got a sweet deal).

Definitely advertise it more, I didn't see it listed in the "for sale" section here. Then sit back and be patient. The market for NSXs isn't huge (as demonstrated by Honda's low sales figures). It'll take time for a serious buyer with the proper funds to find you car.

Good luck.

<font size=1>

[This message has been edited by PHOEN$X (edited 26 January 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

I would not consider this car to be "well maintained" when it's being driven with a timing belt five years longer than specified for changing in the manufacturer's recommended maintenance schedule. Sorry, but I think your mechanic is giving you bad advice.

I would say that, based on the description presented here, a fair market value for this car is $34.5-36K. If you refer to the Pricing section of the FAQ, I would place this car in the "A" category for cosmetic condition and miles, the "B" category for maintenance.

A similar car which had had all service done on schedule, with the timing belt perhaps a year or two longer than specified (but not five years longer), might be worth $37-38K.

You didn't mention whether the window regulators have been replaced or updated. If they have not, deduct $1K from the estimates I'm presenting here. (Yes, even though it would only cost you about $300 or so to have the fix-it thingies installed.)

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 26 January 2003).]