Given the recent discussions of insurance coverage (or lack thereof) for HPDE/open track events, I am wondering what the more experienced among us do. Do you assume the risk yourself? Buy insurance that provides coverage for track events? What would you recommend for someone who would be doing less than 10 track days a year?
Experienced Trackers - How are you Insuring Yourself?
- Thread starter Liquid
- Start date
In God We Trust (my track insurance carrier)
Plus a car trailer- I never assume I won't crash or break down (shit happens)
Plus a car trailer- I never assume I won't crash or break down (shit happens)
^ What he said... Truck/trailer is a must. Or really good AAA.
Basically, if you can't afford to fix it, then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place
... (not really), just don't got 10/10th on a track day.. its not worth it. Drive within your limits. 7/10ths max...
I rarely go 10/10th's on race weekend... Other than an expensive repair bill and constant heckling from your peers if you wreck (that they never seem to forget :wink: ), the only thing you gain is a $5 trophy, checkered flag and bragging rights (for us club racers anyway
)Pro racing, well that's different and someone else's wallet.
Same company here:wink:
DocJohn and I get professional courtesy discounted rates.
My policy currently has a $35,000 deductible:smile:
"My policy currently has a $35,000 deductible"
And ill raise you 100k for mine!
And ill raise you 100k for mine!
Be smart. Be conscious of your attention span and attentiveness. Twenty to 30 minutes into a session, notice if you're still hitting all your marks. If you're missing any, pit and take a break, put your head back on straight. Better yet, limit your sessions to 30 minutes at a time regardless, even if you come in, swig some water to stay hydrated, and go back out, but do be aware of your ability to concentrate.
Avoid the red mist. If you find yourself desperate to catch the 911 Turbo in front of you (or to keep the crazy-fast Spec Miata behind you :biggrin
, and you're ignoring your usual caution, take five.
That's the best insurance you can give yourself.
Of course as others have noted, sh*t happens, so unless you can't afford to ball the car up, don't take it out. As for the original question you asked, I self-insure.
Avoid the red mist. If you find yourself desperate to catch the 911 Turbo in front of you (or to keep the crazy-fast Spec Miata behind you :biggrin
, and you're ignoring your usual caution, take five.That's the best insurance you can give yourself.
Of course as others have noted, sh*t happens, so unless you can't afford to ball the car up, don't take it out. As for the original question you asked, I self-insure.
I self-insure as well. The comment if you can't afford to wreck it on the track, don't track it, is a good one. Recently we have had loads of posts about financing the car. For those who have financed their cars and are thinking about tracking the car, think about what it'd feel like if you wrecked it. You may not have the cash available to repair it, but yet you'll still have to make payments on a wrecked vehicle. That would be a quite unfortunate scene...............
Ya, like I said earlier, if you can't afford to fix it (anything that can possibly happen), then don't risk it. Even driving at 7/10th, unpredictable things can happen that may not even be your fault.
I learned that lesson way back when i had my 500rwhp single turbo MKIV supra. I spun it on entry to T10 at Pacific Raceways in Washington and narrowly collected a few non-movable items
I got lucky. I took it to an HPDE just to see how it was on the track.
From that day forward, I only run my "dedicated" race car on the track. If I write that off, its no big deal. Keep it within what you can afford in the worse case senario.
With that said, if you're planning on getting into HPDE's or racing on a consistent basis, I highly recommend getting a dedicated track car. If something breaks or you crash or what have you, you can fix it at your own leisure and won't impact your life as much, especially if you're tracking your daily driver...
Shameless plug :biggrin: My Honda Challenge H1 K20-R powered race car is for sale:
More info/pics/vids here:
http://www.c-speedracing.com/racecar.php
I learned that lesson way back when i had my 500rwhp single turbo MKIV supra. I spun it on entry to T10 at Pacific Raceways in Washington and narrowly collected a few non-movable items
I got lucky. I took it to an HPDE just to see how it was on the track.From that day forward, I only run my "dedicated" race car on the track. If I write that off, its no big deal. Keep it within what you can afford in the worse case senario.
With that said, if you're planning on getting into HPDE's or racing on a consistent basis, I highly recommend getting a dedicated track car. If something breaks or you crash or what have you, you can fix it at your own leisure and won't impact your life as much, especially if you're tracking your daily driver...
Shameless plug :biggrin: My Honda Challenge H1 K20-R powered race car is for sale:
More info/pics/vids here:
http://www.c-speedracing.com/racecar.php
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Well said and ditto to your post!!!!!!
Well it seems unanimous - everyone is "self insuring" or assuming the risk themselves. Let me ask another question to help assess the risk... In the intermediate level, on average how many cars sustain serious damage per track day? How many cars are running in this group on a typical track day?
Basically trying to get the likelihood that a given car will be involved in a serious incident per day on the track, understanding that driver plays a huge part in this and is not captured in the equation.
I own my car outright and can "afford" to lose it if push comes to shove, but I am very cautious with my assets and it is obviously something I want to avoid/mitigate if at all possible.
Basically trying to get the likelihood that a given car will be involved in a serious incident per day on the track, understanding that driver plays a huge part in this and is not captured in the equation.
I own my car outright and can "afford" to lose it if push comes to shove, but I am very cautious with my assets and it is obviously something I want to avoid/mitigate if at all possible.
To be honest, the 'beginner' and 'intermediate' level HPDE drivers (weekend track drivers), are generally the ones that will have the most offs/incidences.
A) n00bs tend to be really cautious, or overly confident/show off. Both are dangerous in itself. One being they're totally out of their comfort zone, and the latter, simply driving beyond their skill level.
B) At the intermediate level, most drivers have not reached 8 or even 9/10th or their driving ability yet, but are working on getting there. Thus, they will tend to push their limits, which is a good thing - its the only way to improve, but that is also when some people will realize that they just can't handle the car when its just a little bit faster, or they just can't think that fast, or simply not ready yet.
Experienced drivers have incidences too, don't get me wrong, it happens to everyone (me too!) but its how they are handled at the moment it occurs that usually determines the outcome - minor or really bad. That only comes with experience. Kind of a catch 22 I suppose.
But back to your question, some track days will have 0 'incidences'. By "incidences", I mean no fender benders, no major offs that involved a collision, etc (keep in mind there's typically no passing at HPDEs except in designated sections of the track, so any 'collisions' are from hitting barriers or immovable objects, not one vehicle with another)
Other days can have 1 or 2 (or more!) minor incidents, ie: offs that didn't results in a collision, but ended breaking suspension parts or something that ended up in a flat tow.
I wouldn't be surprised though that if there was even one CLOSE CALL, the track officials would stop everything and have a serious conversion with everyone immediately and discuss (revisit) the safety and important of awareness while being on the track before something (else) happens.
But, on the average, i'd say that at any given HPDE, at least ONE person will break and require a tow truck or crash with body/suspension/engine damage of some sort and may or may not require a tow home. This is with participants as few as 30-40 up to 60-80 on a given day.
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As you aptly note, the chances of an incident occurring are mostly dependent on the driver, so an overall average percentage almost certainly understates the chances for someone who drives "on the ragged edge" of his abilities and his car's performance envelope, and overstates it for someone who drives conservatively rather than pushing the limits of himself and his car. Similarly, an average percentage understates the chances of a car being damaged in an incident at a major spectator track with little runoff room and lots of armco and concrete barriers, and overstates the chances at a "club track" where there is lots of runoff room almost everywhere around the track. And chances of an incident are higher at an event where rules are loose, no instruction is required, even for novices, etc. Also chances are higher on wet pavement, lower on dry pavement, etc. So there are a lot of factors that drive those chances up or down.
That being said, I've been a participant in at least a couple hundred of well-organized, relatively safe track events at a variety of tracks. The number of incidents with body damage from going off the track at those events has been an average of approximately 2 percent of the drivers (both instructors and students at all levels) in a two-day event.
That being said, I've been a participant in at least a couple hundred of well-organized, relatively safe track events at a variety of tracks. The number of incidents with body damage from going off the track at those events has been an average of approximately 2 percent of the drivers (both instructors and students at all levels) in a two-day event.
Great stuff guys, any other thoughts are obviously welcome and appreciated.
I think nsxtasy will tell you honestly that he doesn't track in the rain. I believe he has good reason to say that as the only 2 times I've spun in 25 track days were both in the rain-- the last time just happening at Mid-Ohio a week ago with me ending in the gravel trap inside the keyhole.
Good decisions make for good insurance too-- but not necessarily good fun.:biggrin:
I usually skip the very last run group of the day as most drivers are subjected to either being exhausted or push themselves to the limit to get one final fast lap time. As a result, most incidences I've witness occurred at then end of the day when drivers' judgments are compromised.
I have tracked my cars for the last 5 years. In those years I can think of 6incidents that occured. And only one was car vs. car incidence. Thats 6incidents in 12-14 events per year.(I don't go to all of them but I usually hear about any body damage). At the PCA events there tend to be between 100 - 125 cars. At the Thedriversedge.net events there tend to be between 150 - 190 cars. Now lets estimate that I missed of a couple of incidents. So maybe 10 incidents in 5 years.
So if you take the low #'s of cars/event, thats 10 cars that were damaged in ~ 7000 cars. Of the 6 that I know of 2 of the cars were covered by an insurance company(Not likely today but happened in the past). That should give you some data.
IMHO the important variables are:
1. Driver(clearly the most imp.).
2. The organization setting up the wknd.
3. The car.
Personally - I notice most off field excusions and damage cover in novice groups and in Advanced/Instructor groups. The novice group is usually packed with timid drivers that don't quite understand the physics of car dynamics. The instructors are pushing there cars at 9.5/10ths getting ready for a race the next wknd at the same track.
So if you take the low #'s of cars/event, thats 10 cars that were damaged in ~ 7000 cars. Of the 6 that I know of 2 of the cars were covered by an insurance company(Not likely today but happened in the past). That should give you some data.
IMHO the important variables are:
1. Driver(clearly the most imp.).
2. The organization setting up the wknd.
3. The car.
Personally - I notice most off field excusions and damage cover in novice groups and in Advanced/Instructor groups. The novice group is usually packed with timid drivers that don't quite understand the physics of car dynamics. The instructors are pushing there cars at 9.5/10ths getting ready for a race the next wknd at the same track.
Ski_Banker
Suspended
Great thread.
The one thing that isn't really clear, to me at least, is this issue of "self insurance". Yes, I understand the position of not being physically insured while driving on a racetrack. BUT (and I know the risk averse lawyers among us have thought about this ad nauseum :tongue: )...
1. When you say "don't track it if you can't afford to lose it" are you really saying that you have ZERO insurance? Really? Obviously "afford" is relative too I suppose. I could "afford" to write off my NSX and not be in the poorhouse. But would I be really really really pissed if I had to do so...absolutely.
2. No liability insurance? REALLY???? I mean, how can you guys do it? I know you are all very smart and experienced track drivers, and most have great careers and nice financial net worths. Doesn't it freak you out that an "accident" could end up with you being sued for, and possibly losing, everything you own??? I have no problem "putting a box around" a potential $30k+ liability if I were to wreck my car. Fine. But to think that this dangerous activity could, quite possibly, wipe me out financially and into the future -- that's just scary as hell.
Yeah...I'm the guy that has MAX coverage on his insurance, without a moment of hesitation. Too bad we live in such a litigious society that these are the things we fear... :frown:
I guess, to me, the insurance issue is of equal (or even higher) importance than HANS devices and roll cages.
The one thing that isn't really clear, to me at least, is this issue of "self insurance". Yes, I understand the position of not being physically insured while driving on a racetrack. BUT (and I know the risk averse lawyers among us have thought about this ad nauseum :tongue: )...
1. When you say "don't track it if you can't afford to lose it" are you really saying that you have ZERO insurance? Really? Obviously "afford" is relative too I suppose. I could "afford" to write off my NSX and not be in the poorhouse. But would I be really really really pissed if I had to do so...absolutely.
2. No liability insurance? REALLY???? I mean, how can you guys do it? I know you are all very smart and experienced track drivers, and most have great careers and nice financial net worths. Doesn't it freak you out that an "accident" could end up with you being sued for, and possibly losing, everything you own??? I have no problem "putting a box around" a potential $30k+ liability if I were to wreck my car. Fine. But to think that this dangerous activity could, quite possibly, wipe me out financially and into the future -- that's just scary as hell.
Yeah...I'm the guy that has MAX coverage on his insurance, without a moment of hesitation. Too bad we live in such a litigious society that these are the things we fear... :frown:
I guess, to me, the insurance issue is of equal (or even higher) importance than HANS devices and roll cages.
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Wow, that's just totally different from my experience, which includes some of the same groups you run with (e.g. PCA and Drivers Edge).
Even if I limited my observations to the safest tracks around, such as GingerMan and Putnam Park (in TX, think Motorsport Ranch), it would be way more than the 0.14 percent of cars you're quoting.
Ski brings up a great point.... it is not just the potential cost of losing the car, but couldn't a person also be sued and found liable for damage to another person's car and or medical expenses? Assume the person was NOT being grossly negligent on the track, but just had an accident. If somebody got really hurt, that could be a BIIIIIIG number.
NSXtasy, your numbers definitely sound more in the range of what I was expecting. As my only point of comparison, in my 2 day novice event hosted by Trackmasters at Watkins Glen, 2 Subaru WRXs blew their engines and 1 Mini flipped and rolled on its roof. This was out of about 40-45 cars.
NSXtasy, your numbers definitely sound more in the range of what I was expecting. As my only point of comparison, in my 2 day novice event hosted by Trackmasters at Watkins Glen, 2 Subaru WRXs blew their engines and 1 Mini flipped and rolled on its roof. This was out of about 40-45 cars.
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Absolutely correct.
My estimate (of around 2 percent of cars in a two-day event) would include only the Mini, not the two cars incurring mechanical damage.
I've driven in several events with Trackmasters. I believe they run their events in a safe manner; however, in terms of numbers, the safety of their organization may be offset by the fact that the Glen is a spectator venue with lots and lots of concrete and light blue armco.