I do not think $4-5k is too much to pay for importation, shipping, and conversion (LHD among other things). What I am saying is that they cannot do it profitably at that amount. I am also not arguing about the speed or desirability of the cars in question. I am just saying that at those prices, it is not a good biz plan.
Evolution Imports would import an NSX-R if...
- Thread starter Rubber Chicken
- Start date
Gee, Rubber Chicken, you sure do get a lot of facts wrong in your posts. For example...
I think you're referring to the Nurburgring, which is near the small town of Nurburg, not the city of Nuremberg, where the trials of Nazi war criminals were held after World War II. (Sorry, Forums Nazi.) And a quick time on the Nurburgring is 8 minutes, not 8 seconds.
Oh, and the Evo VII can't seat five people. Not five adults in any kind of comfort, anyway.
Only if you overpay for the M3 by $5-10K.
Oh, and the M3 can't seat five people, either.
Yes, they do, if they still have a portion of the original warranty remaining, which is four years, not three. And they also do if they're certified.
Not the Evo VII, which can't carry five people and it can't go 0-60 in less than five seconds. (Typical times are low fives, not less.)
You might want to check your facts first before posting again...
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 10 March 2003).]
I think you're referring to the Nurburgring, which is near the small town of Nurburg, not the city of Nuremberg, where the trials of Nazi war criminals were held after World War II. (Sorry, Forums Nazi.) And a quick time on the Nurburgring is 8 minutes, not 8 seconds.
Oh, and the Evo VII can't seat five people. Not five adults in any kind of comfort, anyway.
Only if you overpay for the M3 by $5-10K.
Oh, and the M3 can't seat five people, either.
Yes, they do, if they still have a portion of the original warranty remaining, which is four years, not three. And they also do if they're certified.
Not the Evo VII, which can't carry five people and it can't go 0-60 in less than five seconds. (Typical times are low fives, not less.)
You might want to check your facts first before posting again...
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 10 March 2003).]
I personally would never get a car that is more than its worth. Motorex is selling a used 2001 Skyline Vspec II with 120 miles for $96K. In Japan it was $56K US new! Paying $96K for a $56K car is ridiculous. I rather spend $96K on a $96K car. I don't really care whether the US has it or not, to me its still a $56K car. I'm also applying the same logic to the NSX-R. Its just not worth it IMHO. No flames intended. Just my 2 cents.
Nsxtasy you do a dazzling job of missing the point. I applaud you.
Nonetheless I can't help but remember my argument, what was it? Oh yeah $35k, 5 people (
Not to imply that ALL sources report 0-60 in <5, these are just a few that do:
Hahaha look what I just found. Some retarded dealer out there is asking 50k for the new Lancer Evolution. I did not photoshop this.
Just some food for thought, what really is a car worth?
If I told you a sedan did 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, and had so many interior cubic feet of space, could you tell me how much it would be worth?
Would you think of a $30,000 Lancer Evolution or would you think $69,000 M5?
How about if I said Mid-engine, RWD, two seater, and a power/weight ratio of .20 hp/kg how much would you say it cost?
~$25k equivalent for a JDM late model MR2 (245 hp)
~$40k for a Lotus Elise?
~$75k for an NSX?
I know there's more to price than power to weight ratio's and timeslips to say that one M5 is "worth" 2 Evolution's is mind boggling, when all the evolution is missing is some leather, a couple inches of legroom, and some sound deadening material.
:dunno: I always find it an interesting discussion as to what people think certain things are "worth."
(A) The sum of its components, and its overal performance.
(B) How much you can get for it.
By "worth", Ryan is talking about what the manufacturer actually charges for it and I tend to agree with him.
The Skyline GTR is worth $56k since that's what it actually costs in Japan. When you get into the area of grey market items, you have to start asking how much *extra* it's worth to *you*.
In terms of the M5 vs. the Evo... You're paying for the fact that it's a BMW. People can claim that label doesn't matter all the want, but the fact remains that to the public at large, a BMW M5 is going to be a much more impressive vehicle than any Mitsu could ever be. The NSX suffers from this as well (although much less so than the "gangsta'd out" EVO).
The Skyline GTR is worth $56k since that's what it actually costs in Japan. When you get into the area of grey market items, you have to start asking how much *extra* it's worth to *you*.
In terms of the M5 vs. the Evo... You're paying for the fact that it's a BMW. People can claim that label doesn't matter all the want, but the fact remains that to the public at large, a BMW M5 is going to be a much more impressive vehicle than any Mitsu could ever be. The NSX suffers from this as well (although much less so than the "gangsta'd out" EVO).
In general, it's worth whatever another buyer is willing to pay for it.
That means that if you can buy a new Evolution 8 at a Mitsubishi dealer for, say, $40K, and you could resell it the next day for $35K, then it's worth between $35K and $40K.
It also means that if you can buy a gray market Evo 7 for, say, $30K, but you couldn't resell it the next day for $20K, then it's not worth $20K.
No, because numbers alone don't tell how much a car is worth.
Funny, I would wonder whether maybe it's a $10K Civic that someone stuck a 5-liter Mustang engine into.
Probably not very much, because people who are asking the question the way you phrase it, are usually talking about a car that's not worth very much. My first thought would be $10K.
There's always something out there with more horsepower for less money. To say that an M5 is worth 4 Evolutions because you can sell the M5 for $60K but you might only get $15K for each Evolution doesn't boggle my mind; it's simply market economics.
How much do you think you can get for a car that has no warranty and right hand drive? How much do you think you can get for a '91 NSX that has a salvage title and a smashed front end? Or a show NSX with a 700-hp engine? The problem is, there are cars out there that are bought and sold every day that have a very predictable, low-risk market value, but rare and one-of-a-kind cars do not have an established market value. I can buy and sell stock, mint-condition NSXs all day long because I know what I can get for them within a few thousand dollars. A mint, perfectly-maintained '91 NSX with 20K miles can sell for $35K any day of the week. But how much do you think a gray market Evo 7 will sell for? You really can't say, because there is no established market with lots of those cars being bought and sold every day. And without that, you really can't say what it's worth. It's worth whatever anyone is willing to buy or sell it for, and there's no way of predicting how much that might be.
I'm sorry, but I gotta say...
Mitsubishi sucks!
Mitsubishi sucks!
I'm not trying to argue against your or anything, just trying to provoke some thought.
Suppose I have a $2k beater, and I get into an accident that kills the bumper warps the rear floorpan, and scratches the paint on several panels. Total cost to fix: $2.5k. The car is declared totaled, because the cost to fix it is greater than the cost of the car itself.
Does this mean that the car is worth nothing, or worse, worth negative $500? Hell no. If it still drives, safely, its definitely worth something. Duct tape that bumper back on, buy all the touch up paint you need to get it so that it looks halfway decent.
In my mind, that car is worth just as much as any other beater out there. It does the beater job perfectly. In the insurance's mind the car is worth negative $500.
Who is right? I think we see two different meanings of the word 'worth' here.
And as far as "something is worth what you can get for it" goes, consider this:
Most good things in life you have to pay for. But there are a few exceptions. In my opinion, a manual transmission is a more desirable tranny than an automatic. Every car from the factory/dealer with an automatic transmission is more expensive than its manual counterpart.
Why? Probably because its more costly and difficult to manufacture. NOT because people want it more. In fact, in many used car markets, the manual transmission vehicles command a higher price than an all else equal automatic tranny vehicle. That says that people desire the manual transmission more.
The factory is placing a price on the auto tranny higher because it took them longer to produce or it the materials are more costly, or the process is more difficult. NOT because we want it more. We want it LESS.
I think this is a case where something's worth is not dictated by what they can get for it, because if it were, dealers would be charging a premium for manual transmission sports cars, because they know enthusiasts will pay for it.
Yeah, but who wants a EVO VII anyway? Not me.
Looks like a typical 90s boxy sedan from Mitsu with some add-on plastic panels and wings. I'm sure it's very fast, but so is a AMC Pacer with Hemi in the back seat.
-Jim
------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
Looks like a typical 90s boxy sedan from Mitsu with some add-on plastic panels and wings. I'm sure it's very fast, but so is a AMC Pacer with Hemi in the back seat.
-Jim
------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
The NSX-R is a great car, and I bet most people on this board would want one sitting in their garage at this very moment. However, at $40K more than its MSRP in Japan, I don't think its worth it. Lets face it, it is a $113K car, not a $150K car, or a $185K car. Also, on Honda's website they are saying that only a 100 are produced a year. Bringing 20 over is not gonna be easy.
Let's face it, those that would pay that "premium" just want something that wasn't meant for US shores because its rare here. The '01 R34 Skyline that Motorex is selling to me is just a $56K car, cause it is a $56K car. Its not $96K. I would rather get a car that retails new for around $96K than a car that can be found on the other side of the globe that sells for $56K or less.
The normal NSXs are priced pretty close across different markets. Maybe some people will think its overpriced, but some people won't. No matter what, they know how much money it would take to own an NSX.
I have a japanese friend that came over to the US for business. A true car enthusiast. He saw the Road & Track article that tested the Skyline against a Diablo VT. He asked me whether the price as tested for the skyline is a misprint. I said no it wasn't. He responded, I can get an NSX or Carrera 4s with that kind of money! My thoughts exactly.
[This message has been edited by RyRy210 (edited 11 March 2003).]
Let's face it, those that would pay that "premium" just want something that wasn't meant for US shores because its rare here. The '01 R34 Skyline that Motorex is selling to me is just a $56K car, cause it is a $56K car. Its not $96K. I would rather get a car that retails new for around $96K than a car that can be found on the other side of the globe that sells for $56K or less.
The normal NSXs are priced pretty close across different markets. Maybe some people will think its overpriced, but some people won't. No matter what, they know how much money it would take to own an NSX.
I have a japanese friend that came over to the US for business. A true car enthusiast. He saw the Road & Track article that tested the Skyline against a Diablo VT. He asked me whether the price as tested for the skyline is a misprint. I said no it wasn't. He responded, I can get an NSX or Carrera 4s with that kind of money! My thoughts exactly.
[This message has been edited by RyRy210 (edited 11 March 2003).]
This is exactly what I am talking about. People who actually have the money to purchase vehicles in that price range wouldn't want a Mitsubishi, Nissan, Etc. Who's gonna pay $150k for a gray Market NSX or $100k for a Gray Market Skyline when you can get a U.S. Spec 355 or 360? I'll tell you, hardly anyone. That is why they don't and won't sell well here. Mitsubishi is seen as a second rate make in the U.S. no matter what you think of the Evolution VII. The general public views Mits as a economical Japanese car. They have tried selling a high priced sports car before, and we all know how well that went.
Then the Pacer must be worth $35K.
ck, beware of that argument. Change a few words here and there, and it turns into another argument that some people make:
This is exactly what I am talking about. People who actually have the money to purchase vehicles in that price range wouldn't want a Honda. Who's gonna pay $73-90k for a new NSX when you can get a U.S. Spec Z06 or M3 for less? I'll tell you, hardly anyone. That is why they don't and won't sell well here. Honda is seen as a second rate make in the U.S. no matter what you think of the NSX. The general public views Honda as a economical Japanese car. They have tried selling a high priced sports car before, and we all know how well that went.
I don't. Chevrolet and Dodge are two brands that are the entry-level divisions of their respective companies, with reputations that in many ways are worse than Honda's; yet they are successful selling Corvettes for $38-52K and Vipers for $80K.
I think there are numerous reasons why the NSX has not been more successful, but I don't think Honda's reputation is one of them. If Honda's reputation were an issue, they never would have sold 3,000 NSXs the first year they were available.
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 11 March 2003).]
Suppose you were lost wandering in the desert for 2.5 days, no food no water.
A merchant comes along with some ice cold bottled water, and says "want some water? $50 a bottle"
Would you tell him "Hell no, I'd rather buy a $50 bottle of wine for that money."
Because according to you, bottled water is worth 99 cents, and Skyline's are worth $56k.
NO ONE would buy a Skyline for over 56k and bottled water for more than 99 cents.
Just some food for thought
Yeah but can you buy a brand new 2003 AMC Pacer with a Hemi in the back seat with a 3-4 year warranty?
Add on plastic wings? Like carbon fiber? According to Mitsubishi its the first production car ever to feature a carbon fiber wing. Criticize it? Perhaps some people were criticizing a certain car a decade ago when it came out with Titanium rods and an aluminum body. And doesn't an NSX-R feature a carbon fiber wing too?
Who wants a Lancer Evo? How have the ugly ass bug-eyed WRX's been selling? Pretty damn well from what I've been seeing, and pretty much everyone run into thinks the Lancer Evo is a better looking car. A better looking, faster, competitor to one of the hottest sport compact imports in the nation? I can guarantee you that a whole sh*tload of ppl are gonna want the Lancer Evo when it comes out.
Originally posted by Rubber Chicken:
Suppose you were lost wandering in the desert for 2.5 days, no food no water.
A merchant comes along with some ice cold bottled water, and says "want some water? $50 a bottle"
Would you tell him "Hell no, I'd rather buy a $50 bottle of wine for that money."
Because according to you, bottled water is worth 99 cents, and Skyline's are worth $56k.
NO ONE would buy a Skyline for over 56k and bottled water for more than 99 cents.
Just some food for thought
Well, the days when I was studying law, everything had to be within scope. I don't think the analogy you gave above is exactly within the scope of what we are talking about.
We are talking about luxury goods here. We are not talking about people purchasing goods because their life depended on it.
In the water analogy, the water has had its value adjusted upward by the massive demand and hugely scarce supply.
Is there massive demand for gray market Skylines? No way...
Personally, I think the Skyline GTR has always been an amazingly ugly car. The new GTR concept looks a lot better to me. I get the feeling that Nissan will release it for the US market and, presumably, the Motorex folks will have to find a new career as I can't imagine *any* demand for the JDM model at that point.
Similar deal with the EVO VIII. Would anyone *really* import a gray market EVO VIII for ACD and AYC? That seems insane to me.
Is there massive demand for gray market Skylines? No way...
Personally, I think the Skyline GTR has always been an amazingly ugly car. The new GTR concept looks a lot better to me. I get the feeling that Nissan will release it for the US market and, presumably, the Motorex folks will have to find a new career as I can't imagine *any* demand for the JDM model at that point.
Similar deal with the EVO VIII. Would anyone *really* import a gray market EVO VIII for ACD and AYC? That seems insane to me.
Apparently at least 2 dozen or more people have already bought Evo's in the time that Evo imports has been around...
So I guess not everyone shares your same sentiment.
Let me just say...
Supras kick ass!
Supras kick ass!
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You are thinking about reputation as in quality. I am talking about reputation as in history.
Dodge and Chevy (esp. with the Corvette!) have huge performance car history in this country. You can say they were not good cars, but their following was and is very strong.
The same thing for Porsche and Ferrari. Those brands have spent half a century building an association of their name with "sports car." They are the dream cars of millions of kids. How many books about Honda sports cars does the local bookstore carry? How many with Dodges and Chevys and Porshes and Ferraris?
Honda, as a whole, has not been in (or generally even tried to be in) a similar position over the years. Honda has many loyal customers, but most see their Honda as reliable and relatively economical transportation. Some are fun and sporty like the Integra, but as good as they are, they are not high-end sports cars -- people do not shop them against a new Porsche or Ferrari. Yes Honda has some good racing history. Yes, Honda has some good motorcycles. Yes, Honda has even had some cool little sports cars. But they never really FOCUSED the company on the sports car segment.
The NSX was like a pet project, a diversion. At first they seemed to be getting into the sports segment with the NSX but it took a decade for them to follow up with the S2000. Now they need to increase the focus and need to keep it up for 25+ years so the kids who are drooling over NSXs or S2000s today will be able to buy a Honda sportscar when they are older.
This lack of recognition is self evident in the number of people who ask what the NSX is when they see one.
Here is a perfect example of how much Honda is not part of this country's popular collective sports car consciousness:
When I drive my NSX around, by far the most common thing strangers say is to either incorrectly guess what it is (e.g. "Nice Ferrari!)" or more commonly just ask "Excuse me, but exactly what kind of car is that?" I've driven my NSX to work several times over the years. People have seen it in the parking lot and later commented to the effect of "cool car" and then almost everyone asks "what exactly is it?"
In contrast, in the spring of 2001 I took delivery in the parking lot at work of a 1969 Dodge Charger R/T with a 440, 4-speed and 3x2-barrel carbs. People were streaming out into the parking lot as it was unloaded to check it out. GROUPS of people hung out the entire time it was being unloaded talking about it and other muscle cars of the era. The rest of the day a large percentage of the the 40- and 50-somethings around the office were reminiscing about the cars they and their friends owned back in their youth... Cruising around. Working on cars with their fathers and brothers. Going to car shows or the drag strip, etc.
These cars are a part of the personal history of most motorheads in the age group that tends to be able to throw a lot of money at a "toy" car of some kind. When these people decide to buy an expensive sports car, the Dodge Viper is the modern equivilent of the Dodge Charger of their youth. A new Corvette reminds them of their fathers or older brother's Corvette which they thought was just the coolest damn thing in the world at the time.
Pull up in a Honda S600 at my office and I guarantee I'll be the only one who knows what it is, and even then I don't really CARE about the S600 at all, I just happen to have read about them and would recognize one. Nobody would be standing around talking about their memories of the S600. Sure there are people with such memories, but they are way too few and far between to impact the nation's collective sports car consciousness.
It has little to do with who makes better cars and everything to do with who has a HISTORY and emotional link to the meaning of "sports car" in this country. Sports car enthusiasm and purchases are highly emotional. Not too many people in this country who are in a position to spend $75k on a new car have an emotional attachment in their head associating Honda with sports cars. Many, many of them have such an attachment to marques like Chevy, Dodge, Porsche or Ferrari.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Lud, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
I was responding to the comment that such-and-such brand of Japanese cars could never sell expensive cars because they are known for selling economy cars. People wondered the same thing about Honda before the NSX was introduced at a cost of $60K, and it sold over 3000 cars the first year. That proved that Honda could indeed sell expensive cars, because that expensive car was better than anything else you could buy at that price. And if Mitsubishi, or Subaru, or even Hyundai came out with an expensive car that was clearly better than anything the competition had to offer at the price, that car could sell, too - regardless of how the brand is perceived in this country.
That's all I am saying.
I think there are many reasons why the NSX hasn't sold better, and why it isn't better known. Most of those reasons have been discussed at length in other topics here on these forums. But it's somewhat off on a tangent here.
I was responding to the comment that such-and-such brand of Japanese cars could never sell expensive cars because they are known for selling economy cars. People wondered the same thing about Honda before the NSX was introduced at a cost of $60K, and it sold over 3000 cars the first year. That proved that Honda could indeed sell expensive cars, because that expensive car was better than anything else you could buy at that price. And if Mitsubishi, or Subaru, or even Hyundai came out with an expensive car that was clearly better than anything the competition had to offer at the price, that car could sell, too - regardless of how the brand is perceived in this country.
That's all I am saying.
I think there are many reasons why the NSX hasn't sold better, and why it isn't better known. Most of those reasons have been discussed at length in other topics here on these forums. But it's somewhat off on a tangent here.
I fully agree with Lud. Very very well put. I am Swiss living in the German part and I have a father of Italian origin. And I can see perfectely your example related to Porsches and Ferraris. People remember what Lauda, Regazzoni, Villenevue father and others did in the 70s in Formula 1. Or the 911 their uncle had when they were kids, or the 959 they saw on magazine when they were children ... Honda arrived here in the 80s and was seen as a cheap, average-looking car. Like Kia, Hiunday or Daewoo now. What about today? Nobody still really cares about Hondas. At least not people with the money required to buy it.
So, why in 1991 so many were sold? Hype took a part in it. At that time there was a lot of talk about this "Ferrari fighter" and the NSX was definitely the cool to buy. Like Plasma TVs, the Cayenne or the Sony-Ericsson P800 now.
Today the same car is almost a "aged" sport car that did not change a lot in the last decade. It is underpowered on paper and the concurrence got a lot better. And, as in the 80s, it is STILL only a Honda...
In October last year, someday before the winter sleep, I encountered a 50 years old person in a new 911 4s. He told me that he had a NSX several years ago and that he really liked it. I imagine that many went that way... and not many (Ken you are one of them!) bought the NSX in 1991 and never upgraded to a "better" (at least on paper? or as status? or fashion? or bored of the NSX? or ...) sport car. I think the gentleman that I spoke to went through several cars since the NSX. People had the money then... they have probably the money now. It is not usual that the fun factor of a toy last so long with only a few exceptions (Ken).
So, why in 1991 so many were sold? Hype took a part in it. At that time there was a lot of talk about this "Ferrari fighter" and the NSX was definitely the cool to buy. Like Plasma TVs, the Cayenne or the Sony-Ericsson P800 now.
Today the same car is almost a "aged" sport car that did not change a lot in the last decade. It is underpowered on paper and the concurrence got a lot better. And, as in the 80s, it is STILL only a Honda...
In October last year, someday before the winter sleep, I encountered a 50 years old person in a new 911 4s. He told me that he had a NSX several years ago and that he really liked it. I imagine that many went that way... and not many (Ken you are one of them!) bought the NSX in 1991 and never upgraded to a "better" (at least on paper? or as status? or fashion? or bored of the NSX? or ...) sport car. I think the gentleman that I spoke to went through several cars since the NSX. People had the money then... they have probably the money now. It is not usual that the fun factor of a toy last so long with only a few exceptions (Ken).
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