Evenly matched - NSX & Cayman S

[nsxtasy]

One instructor in one car keeping up with another instructor in another car doesn't mean anything. A far greater variable than the capabilities of the cars themselves is the ability of the drivers. Even within the instructor group, driver ability varies considerably and can easily trump car differences. I was at one event in which an instructor was driving a V-6 Mustang with an automatic and was faster than all the other instructors, who were driving far, far faster cars. Why? Because he was that good.

 

[stuntman]

I am not skeptical at all! But since he had a crew, I just want to make sure when you take the challenge the comparison is to a stock Cayman S that did 1:43 and not "tuned" one since your premise is a stock NSX in the hands of a pro can most likely match this.

Since I am forking the $20, I believe gentleman's rule states the burden of proof is on you to validate that you can match or beat those numbers with a stock NSX in order to get the $20 - I'll compromise on the NA2, but now you are negotiating the type of street tires :wink: ..... hence why I said "presumably" stock (as in tires too) Cayman S.

I'm not negotiating anything. Re-read last few posts, primarily #18 and 21.

One instructor in one car keeping up with another instructor in another car doesn't mean anything. A far greater variable than the capabilities of the cars themselves is the ability of the drivers. Even within the instructor group, driver ability varies considerably and can easily trump car differences. I was at one event in which an instructor was driving a V-6 Mustang with an automatic and was faster than all the other instructors, who were driving far, far faster cars. Why? Because he was that good.

+1

 

[MvM]

I think you look very good chasing that Cayman S.
It's nice to see how a 10 year old (slightly modded) NSX with 290 HP can keep up with a 320 HP Porsche Cayman S.

Make me wonder, does the Cayman S behave similar to the (older) model Porsche 911 with the 320 HP engine>

 

[2slow2speed]

I think you look very good chasing that Cayman S.
It's nice to see how a 10 year old (slightly modded) NSX with 290 HP can keep up with a 320 HP Porsche Cayman S.

Make me wonder, does the Cayman S behave similar to the (older) model Porsche 911 with the 320 HP engine>

FYI: from the video the car that is being chased is the 1st generation Cayman S, those came with a 3.4L engine rated at 290HP and not 320HP.

The Cayman S chassis feels almost like a NSX, the differences that you will notice is the tall gearing on the 6 speed on the Porsche, the better brakes on the Porsche, that being said the 3.2L engine on the NSX feels a bit better than the Cayman S it goes up to redline a lot quicker than the engine on the P-car, part of it has to do with it being a V6 instead of a flat-6 and part of it has to do with the better gearing on the 6 speed on the NSX compared to the Cayman. First generation Cayman's did not come with a either a LSD or a TBD, with a LSD/TBD the handling dynamics are almost identical between the NSX and the Cayman.

In regards to the engines, the newer 3.4L DFI engine on the 987.2 (2nd Generation Cayman) that produces 320HP is better than the original 3.4L engine on the first generation that only produced 290HP.

Compared to the old 996 320HP engine on the Carrera S the DFI engine is much better in regards to it's powerband and engine response, the old 320HP engine on the 996 had VarioCam, the 3.4L on the 1st generation Cayman had VarioCamPlus.

So to summarize: 3.4L on 987.2 > 3.4L 987.1 > 3.4L on 996

 

[2slow2speed]

The Cayman S has 235/265 width tires.

Ryan Rush (Ryneen on Prime) did a 1:42.87 with coilovers, comparable sized 235/275 R-compound tires, and STOCK body/wing. Because of this, I believe an NSX with a comparable 'pro' -with 235/265 width street tires (like Yokohama AD08 or Dunlop StarSpecs) and coilovers definitely beating Randy's time. It also might be possible with stock suspension.


Billy

IMHO: The only stock NSX suspension that even has a chance of beating the Cayman S Stock PASM suspension would be the NSX-R package, seriously doubt that a bone stock suspension from either a NA1 coupe or NA2 coupe or NA2 Targa will be able to beat the stock Cayman S PASM suspension.

One other thing to remember about Randy's times is that he was driving a PDK version of the Cayman, although the car is heavier the power delivery is really optimized with the PDK relative to the 6 speed.

The stock Cayman S's 6 speed has a less than optimal gearing (porsche did it on purpose to ensure that the Cayman S would not outperform a Carrera S), the 7 speed on the PDK has better gearing that makes better use of the powerband that is available from the engine.

 

[2slow2speed]

May indeed be the case. I am just using the reference of what Randy Pobst did at Laguna Seca (presumably) in a stock Cayman S - a 1:43 which is at least some 10+ seconds faster than a stock NSX in a competent driver's hands.

Here at THill, I had a hard time keeping up with one which had supsenion changes; both of us on RA1s too and both with passengers. He must have been a better driver :biggrin:

FYI: Cayman S's with stock engines, suspension mods and running NT-01's are down to 2:01~2:02's at Thill.

Being able to run a 245/275 combo really makes a difference on the Cayman relative to the NSX. The stock front fender on the NSX limits the choices of tires that can be run on the NSX if you decide to go the BBK route .

 

[stuntman]

FYI: Cayman S's with stock engines, suspension mods and running NT-01's are down to 2:01~2:02's at Thill.

Being able to run a 245/275 combo really makes a difference on the Cayman relative to the NSX. The stock front fender on the NSX limits the choices of tires that can be run on the NSX if you decide to go the BBK route .

I'm confident a stock NSX with the NSX-R suspension package and a good set of 235/275s can beat that 1:43. I still think an NSX with stock suspension and said tires can beat it purely due to the grip level of an AD08, Starspec, or R3 in that size on the NSX.

I'll be at Laguna Seca October 23-24. I might have a set of 235/275 tires and just would need a stock 3.2L NSX to attempt it. I might try it in my NSX with the JDM 5-speed gearbox, headers, exhaust and KW V3s but I know my car will beat it.

 

[2slow2speed]

I'm confident a stock NSX with the NSX-R suspension package and a good set of 235/275s can beat that 1:43. I still think an NSX with stock suspension and said tires can beat it purely due to the grip level of an AD08, Starspec, or R3 in that size on the NSX.

I'll be at Laguna Seca October 23-24. I might have a set of 235/275 tires and just would need a stock 3.2L NSX to attempt it. I might try it in my NSX with the JDM 5-speed gearbox, headers, exhaust and KW V3s but I know my car will beat it.

ChopJazz has the NA2 NSX-R suspension that used to be on my car, no clue in regards to the sway bars or anything else on his car, maybe he will volunteer .

One of Andrie Hartanto's previous racing partners also has a NSX with the NA1 NSX-R suspension might want to check with him as well.

 

[Hrant]

FYI: from the video the car that is being chased is the 1st generation Cayman S, those came with a 3.4L engine rated at 290HP and not 320HP.

Well then, this DOES make a difference then :wink:

And as I commented, the video showed Jim was getting more out of his NSX than that Cayman S in the video.

FYI: Cayman S's with stock engines, suspension mods and running NT-01's are down to 2:01~2:02's at Thill.

That sounds about right. If I recall, back when some of us were mostly stock were putzing in the 2:16 range, Andrie's challenge to all was he could get a stock NSX down to 2:05. About 10-11 seconds gain in 3 mile with 15 turns.

There is no doubt that a pro driver can make a big difference. But let's do some hypothetical math.

Assuming a pro driver can improve by 1 second per turn at Laguna the relative performance of quite a few of us who were running in the 1:54-1:56 range with minor mods back then (some had the basic suspension upgrades like Koni or Bilstein, others on R compound, all better pads). With 12 turns at Laguna that would shave it down to 1:42 range - BINGO:biggrin:

Now then, can someone also explain to me then how PD with a totally raced prepped NSX, with some 300+ more rwhp, weighing at least 600lbs less would have improved over a stock NSX driven by a pro by only about 8-10 seconds

I know Kip is getting below 1:30. And I know the incremental gains become more difficult as one pushes the envelope. But we are now comparing the envelope of a stock vs. race prepped NSX. This would imply that (a) either the gains per lap with all that is being thrown at a totally race prepped NSX is at best 12-14 seconds gains from a stock NSX driven by a pro or (b) the projections that a stock NSX can do 1:42 or 1:43 is a bit optimistic :wink:

I am not doubting anyone's skills. Just curious where my math is going wrong

 

[ryneen]

I'm confident a stock NSX with the NSX-R suspension package and a good set of 235/275s can beat that 1:43. I still think an NSX with stock suspension and said tires can beat it purely due to the grip level of an AD08, Starspec, or R3 in that size on the NSX.

I'll be at Laguna Seca October 23-24. I might have a set of 235/275 tires and just would need a stock 3.2L NSX to attempt it. I might try it in my NSX with the JDM 5-speed gearbox, headers, exhaust and KW V3s but I know my car will beat it.

Billy is almost 5 seconds faster than me in my own car at my home track (Buttonwillow). I ran a 1:42.87 at Laguna Seca on my third visit. Since Billy is so much quicker than I am, he would probably be in the high 1:30's with my car at Laguna Seca. I have '91 with stock motor, stock body/interior, no aero, short gears, coilovers, NT01 R comps and non compliance goodies. I do have Penske double adjustable coilovers, but I must say that I'm not much faster than when i had the very amazing NA2 Type R suspension. Therefore I'm pretty confident that Billy could still beat my 1:42.87 time even driving a stock NA2 NSX with Type R suspension and street tires.

I'll put $50 in for Billy to beat Randy Pobst's time.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'm really starting to wonder... all these Nurburgring times car manufacturers post now... GTR did this, ZR1 did that, CTS-V did this, CGT did that.... does it really mean anything? some of these cars are apart by only a few seconds, and they all have different drivers.

Sure does seem to sell cars!

 

[stuntman]

I'm really starting to wonder... all these Nurburgring times car manufacturers post now... GTR did this, ZR1 did that, CTS-V did this, CGT did that.... does it really mean anything?

Absolutely not.

 

[VegasSpeed]

I will put $200 out that Billy can take a bone stock NA2 nsx and beat that time. Billy will find a way....

That being said I wouldn't let him drive my car on the track.

 

[Hrant]

I sure am glad that I put only my meager $20 on the line :tongue:

But getting back to post #34, the question begs an answer

If Billy can beat a 1:43 in a stock NSX - even with street 235/275 tires, this would imlply - I will pause the question yet again:

Now then, can someone also explain to me then how PD with a totally raced prepped NSX, with some 300+ more rwhp, weighing at least 600lbs less would have improved over a stock NSX driven by a pro by only about 8-10 seconds

I am not doubting anyone's skills. Just curious where my math is going wrong

Unless of course Billy is a better driver than PD. Flame suit getting ready :biggrin:

 

[stuntman]

If we keep all this betting up, we can pool all the money together to buy a set of tires to try to make this happen.

I will be at Laguna Seca October 23-24th with the FXMD NSX. I will have my car there (KW V3, JDM Gears, NSX-R wing) to test. We just need a stock NA2 and a NA2 with NSX-R suspension to see if we can beat the time. FXMD could probably provide the wheels to mount the street tires on, we just need the car to bolt the wheels on to have a go at the time.

Maybe start a new thread to try to make this happen?




FWIW:

Grand Am GT (500whp-ish and a lot of aero): 1:27-1:28
SWC GT: 1:27.5?
Grand Am GS (300-400whp): 1:37.5-1:38
Grand Am ST (250whp, basically stock cars, similar performance to NSX): 1:41-1:42


Due to Ryan's time at LS, and the recent S2K challenge where comparable S2000s are beating a 1:43, I think it's possible for an NA2 with NSX-R suspension (or coilovers) and maybe even with stock suspension.

 

[ChopsJazz]

ChopJazz has the NA2 NSX-R suspension that used to be on my car, no clue in regards to the sway bars or anything else on his car, maybe he will volunteer .

Sorry, I just threw a blower on my car, so it doesn't fit the criteria. I would, however, let Billy thrash it on Laguna just for sh*ts and giggles! :wink:

 

[Hrant]

Let's put some real reward in this debate. Here is an idea that was posted today; I am sure collectively we can put down Billy's registration fee and perhaps get Ryneen and Kip motivated too :tongue:

-----

Bracket Racing at Laguna Seca on Sept 6

Prize Money: 1st place $250; 2nd place $150; 3rd place $100

Even though bracket racing is typically associated with drag racing, we thought it would be fun to try it on the road course. The nice thing about bracket racing is that you can win with absolutely any car, and don’t even need a race car.

Bracket racing is a race against your predicted time (“dial-in time”), ie, your estimated lap time. The winner is the driver who gets closest to his dial-in, without going under it (“breaking out”). So the name of the game is accurately predicting your lap time, and consistently driving that time.

We’ll have two 30-minute heats, one mid-morning and one mid-afternoon. The cumulative result of these two heats will determine the positions. Each driver will give a dial-in time (estimated lap time) for the first heat, and then run the 30-minute session. Since drivers are racing against their own estimated lap times, regular open track rules will apply as pertains to passing, aggressive driving, etc. At the end of the first heat, each driver will get his results, and can use those results to select a new dial-in for the second heat. Then the second heat is run, and the two combined heats will be used to calculate your finishing position. If you break out (ie, your average lap time is lower than your dial-in), then you are eliminated from winning. The driver who gets closest to his dial-in without going under it, will win the first prize.

For example, let’s say you give a 1:50 as your dial-in (your estimated average lap time for the first heat). At the end of the heat, our timing shows you as an average lap time of 1:52, which gives you a delta of 2 seconds per lap for the first 30-minute heat. You might select a dial-in of 1:54 for the second heat, which (assuming you again drive 1:52 laps) will net you a perfect score for the race.

Driver qualifications – we are allowing this event only for Point-By, Open and Race qualified drivers.

Safety Equipment – Driver has mandatory long sleeve shirt and pants. No on-board timing equipment. NCRC AMB transponder rental included in the entry fee. No passengers allowed. Aside from these items, a regular NCRC tech is adequate.

Cost is $125, and entry is limited to 30 cars. We will only hold the bracket racing sessions if we have 30 drivers. If you are interested, please register and pay now. In the event that we don’t hold the bracket racing, you will be notified at least 10 days in advanced and fully reimbursed.

You can register for the bracket race at http://www.ncracing.org/events.php

Dave & Luc

Remaining NCRC 2010 Schedule
Sept 3 Friday, Thunderhill
Sept 6 Monday, Laguna Seca
Oct 22 Friday, Thunderhill
Nov 1 Monday, Laguna Seca
Nov 20-21 Sat-Sun, Buttonwillow
Nov 27-28 Sat-Sun, Laguna Seca

 

[Track Addict]

Hrant, I have heard that NASA (the club i usually run with) is trying to do something like this in the near future. I will admit it seems like a whole lot of fun and sparked my interest when i first heard it, now that someone is actually trying to put together the event i find myself in dire need of my 90k service and extra rubber and brake pads i hope that this takes off because with everything involved with road course racing (traffic, conditions, driver etc) trying to 'dial in' an accurate time will be both challenging and frustrating.


hope to join NCRC very soon!

 

[Hrant]

Anything that gets people motivated to go the track is a plus :wink:

In the last several years, NCRC has become more focused on timed events and racing. But did you notice the reference to 1:52 -1:54 range I don't think that was by accident :tongue:

 

[tracknut]

Anything that gets people motivated to go the track is a plus :wink:

In the last several years, NCRC has become more focused on timed events and racing. But did you notice the reference to 1:52 -1:54 range I don't think that was by accident :tongue:

Hi Hrant!!

If the perception that we've become more focused on timing and racing is a generally held one, it's not correct. Our biggest growth over the last couple years has been in our driving school since we started it 2 years ago. We're bringing 25 brand new drivers to the track for every school, something we'd never done before. Our race group has growing slowly for years, but nothing like a jump of 25 members in one year.

Dave
NCRC

 

[Hrant]

Hi Hrant!!

If the perception that we've become more focused on timing and racing is a generally held one, it's not correct. Our biggest growth over the last couple years has been in our driving school since we started it 2 years ago. We're bringing 25 brand new drivers to the track for every school, something we'd never done before. Our race group has growing slowly for years, but nothing like a jump of 25 members in one year.

Dave
NCRC

Good to see you on these forums Dave :biggrin:

My apologies if I made the wrong assessment; I was just taking my cues from your e-mails and the above post. 25 new students per every track event is indeed quite an accomplishment - especially if I recall correctly most of the NCRC venues have been at THill. A two day event in November at Laguna is sure enticing :wink:

Best
Hrant

PS: Now that you have followed this thread, care to comment on how you picked 1:52-1:54 range?

 

[tracknut]

Good to see you on these forums Dave :biggrin:

PS: Now that you have followed this thread, care to comment on how you picked 1:52-1:54 range?

Pulled it out of my @$$, mostly

We wanted folks to know this wasn't an event only for racers, even though we're calling it "bracket racing". So I didn't want to put down a time that was clearly something from an expert driver. The beauty of this event (assuming it works out as we hope) is that even a newer driver could do it.

Dave

 

[ChopsJazz]

But did you notice the reference to 1:52 -1:54 range I don't think that was by accident :tongue:

You mean 1:52 like this guy did? :wink:

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[Hrant]

Yes, and he did a 1:57.

Shaving another 15 seconds off a stock NSX at Laguna Seca would not be an easy feat. But what do I know, just as he said, when I am on th e track the "what ifs" are always playing games :biggrin:

 

[Hrant]

Billy is almost 5 seconds faster than me in my own car at my home track (Buttonwillow). I ran a 1:42.87 at Laguna Seca on my third visit. Since Billy is so much quicker than I am, he would probably be in the high 1:30's with my car at Laguna Seca. I have '91 with stock motor, stock body/interior, no aero, short gears, coilovers, NT01 R comps and non compliance goodies. I do have Penske double adjustable coilovers, but I must say that I'm not much faster than when i had the very amazing NA2 Type R suspension. Therefore I'm pretty confident that Billy could still beat my 1:42.87 time even driving a stock NA2 NSX with Type R suspension and street tires.

I'll put $50 in for Billy to beat Randy Pobst's time.

Ryneen, I just watched your video again - per the other post re cameras - on your second lap you indeed seem to have hit less than 1:43 measuing from the flag station, third lap was 1:46, fourth lap was 1:47, fifth lap was 1:45 (measuring from a reference in the paddock). Track was pretty empty as far as your traffic was concerned so these are clean laps. Five laps on the video; kind of short for a normal 20-25 minutes session - unless the video ran out of time?

Curious, was this video taken in the middle of the day after a few sessions already otherwise how were you able to get heat into R compound tires that quickly within the first lap that your second lap was the fastest?!