Economy & Sub Prime housing vs NSX sales?

[Ski_Banker]

I see your point, but I don't think a 5 yr old needs society to teach him to not touch a hot stove. He needs a parent and/or 1 bad experience. A lot of people are getting their bad experiences now. The school of hard knocks is still a school and those lessons are likely to stick.

And what kid doesn't form some basic thoughts on value and worth when trading baseball cards, hot wheels, etc?

I had no official financial education and managed to live within my means, save, handle a mortgage, and swing an NSX to boot. A lot of that comes from Yankee frugality and growing up close to poor. People can educate themselves by reading (books or online) if they choose to do so and take it upon themselves.

So this is what I wrote -- you were the only person that really commented on it, but I think the point needs further debate.

It's not your fault when society does nothing to teach people how to play the game. How to manage money. How to make smart economic decisions.

Frankly (and this is one reason I'm a Junior Achievement volunteer), I think that the public schools in America FAIL in a colossal sense. They FAIL because they teach kids what to know (to go to college, to be productive citizens) but they don't even remotely address how kids should spend their incomes. It's very much like preparing youngsters to be a bunch of rock stars... people that can potentially make loads of $$ but have zero clue how to manage it.

So what role does Western society have in educating kids? 99% of the population believes the public education is critical (and needs improving). Even rich folks don't argue with the necessity of public education.

My point:
You can *waste* 13+ years of a kids life on public education, teaching both important and unimportant subjects to be a contributing member of society. But you don't teach anything that relates to the U.S.'s economic backbone: capitalism. You can teach arithmetic (and calculus) to kids, but, fundamentally, the most important math problems they will ever face will be personal finance related. Most smart high school kids can balance chemical equations (I've long since forgotten how), but don't have a damn clue about interest rates. It just makes no sense.

And, just like almost anything else, this subject can also be taught by parents. Assuming parents know anything either (and, clearly, most don't)

So, in my very strong opinion, this is an *easy* subject to teach in schools...but just hasn't been. One hour, one semester, every few years solves the problem.

 

[steveny]

So this is what I wrote -- you were the only person that really commented on it, but I think the point needs further debate.



So what role does Western society have in educating kids? 99% of the population believes the public education is critical (and needs improving). Even rich folks don't argue with the necessity of public education.

My point:
You can *waste* 13+ years of a kids life on public education, teaching both important and unimportant subjects to be a contributing member of society. But you don't teach anything that relates to the U.S.'s economic backbone: capitalism. You can teach arithmetic (and calculus) to kids, but, fundamentally, the most important math problems they will ever face will be personal finance related. Most smart high school kids can balance chemical equations (I've long since forgotten how), but don't have a damn clue about interest rates. It just makes no sense.

And, just like almost anything else, this subject can also be taught by parents. Assuming parents know anything either (and, clearly, most don't)

So, in my very strong opinion, this is an *easy* subject to teach in schools...but just hasn't been. One hour, one semester, every few years solves the problem.

The education system needs to let the students find what they are passionate about and let the student focus on that. The current system just forces people through a mold.

I for one am sick of paying school taxes to a system that produces people who can't even construct a sentence or spell the word total. I was looking over an invoice the other day a client emailed me that had the word total misspelled not once but twice and both times it was misspelled differently.
Matter of fact here it is..

Replace downstairs bathrooom sink kit faucet drain and shut offs.
back upstairs bathroom replaced tub kid drains
bathroom sink drains from bathroom throw floor down into ceiling of downstairs to main drain.

Front upstairs bathroom replaced shower tub kit took out old put in new replaced lines to tub.replaced wall in livingroom.

Cellar took out old heat lines on furnace replaced six shut offs on hot lines to apartments,replaced all lines on furnace
flushed out all lines replaced compresion tankand put new water feader,fixed all leaks

I pulled up old tub kit and cleaned ,cleaned up old glue and silicon . I installed new tub kit and sealed .Replaced bad spots in sheet rock .I put in new downspout and fixed ceiling in the down stairs livingroom.




Toltle:$xxxxx

I pulled up bad spot in kitchen floor and fixed it just like new.Fixed flashing around the chimney on the roof.I fixed broken stairs going to upstairs rooms.



Totle:$xxxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT THE HELL AM I PAYING SCHOOL TAXES FOR???????

BTW..this guy had only done about 10% of the work he said he did and the 10% he did actually made the problems worse.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Steve, what's your point? The guy is an idiot? Ok, fine. Not relevant.

 

[TyraNSX]

Don't even get me started on property taxes. All I'm going to say is "taxation without utilization".

The education system needs to let the students find what they are passionate about and let the student focus on that. The current system just forces people through a mold.

I for one am sick of paying school taxes to a system that produces people who can't even construct a sentence or spell the word total. I was looking over an invoice the other day a client emailed me that had the word total misspelled not once but twice and both times it was misspelled differently.
Matter of fact here it is..

Replace downstairs bathrooom sink kit faucet drain and shut offs.
back upstairs bathroom replaced tub kid drains
bathroom sink drains from bathroom throw floor down into ceiling of downstairs to main drain.

Front upstairs bathroom replaced shower tub kit took out old put in new replaced lines to tub.replaced wall in livingroom.

Cellar took out old heat lines on furnace replaced six shut offs on hot lines to apartments,replaced all lines on furnace
flushed out all lines replaced compresion tankand put new water feader,fixed all leaks

I pulled up old tub kit and cleaned ,cleaned up old glue and silicon . I installed new tub kit and sealed .Replaced bad spots in sheet rock .I put in new downspout and fixed ceiling in the down stairs livingroom.




Toltle:$xxxxx

I pulled up bad spot in kitchen floor and fixed it just like new.Fixed flashing around the chimney on the roof.I fixed broken stairs going to upstairs rooms.



Totle:$xxxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT THE HELL AM I PAYING SCHOOL TAXES FOR???????

BTW..this guy had only done about 10% of the work he said he did and the 10% he did actually made the problems worse.

 

[TyraNSX]

I agree with you, but reiterate it should not require specific classes for someone to understand that if you make 4 apples a month & your bills cost 3.5 apples a month, you are on very thin ice. And if your bills are >= to 4 apples, you are through the ice.

So this is what I wrote -- you were the only person that really commented on it, but I think the point needs further debate.



So what role does Western society have in educating kids? 99% of the population believes the public education is critical (and needs improving). Even rich folks don't argue with the necessity of public education.

My point:
You can *waste* 13+ years of a kids life on public education, teaching both important and unimportant subjects to be a contributing member of society. But you don't teach anything that relates to the U.S.'s economic backbone: capitalism. You can teach arithmetic (and calculus) to kids, but, fundamentally, the most important math problems they will ever face will be personal finance related. Most smart high school kids can balance chemical equations (I've long since forgotten how), but don't have a damn clue about interest rates. It just makes no sense.

And, just like almost anything else, this subject can also be taught by parents. Assuming parents know anything either (and, clearly, most don't)

So, in my very strong opinion, this is an *easy* subject to teach in schools...but just hasn't been. One hour, one semester, every few years solves the problem.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Lets say I make $50k a year. I go to the local exotic car dealer and pick up a new F430. Now the salesman takes a look at my credit and tells me that the credit is decent, but the W2 just won't cut it... but he has a solution. He adds a 3 in front of the $50k to make it $350k. Nevermind it's a 15% car loan for 96 months or I paid $7k for a warranty - my payment is only $2000 a month. Half my freaking salary. Did the dealer commit fraud by changing my income - yes. Did he unethically put me in a bad loan, and screw me on the warranty - yes. But I signed the damn papers.

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be cruising in a F430? It's one thing if you go buy a car you can afford, say a $30k car and the dealer gouges you, etc. But with these people - the dealer is just an accessory to the real crime... trying to live way beyond your means.

Now - if I end up with a $850k house in CA with bogus income statements, ARM loan with a huge balloon, screwed on the points, etc, etc...

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be kicking it in a $850k house?

M.C. Hammer was wrong - "They can touch that." - REPO & FORECLOSURE.

You don't have to be a fricken rocket scientist to know that making $50k a year doesn't let you live like your making $350k a year!

The only thing that sucks about the whole RE debacle is that the good people that are marginal won't be able to get a loan for a house that they can afford because of the morons that ruined for the rest of us.

 

[CL65 Captain]

The education system needs to let the students find what they are passionate about and let the student focus on that. The current system just forces people through a mold.

I for one am sick of paying school taxes to a system that produces people who can't even construct a sentence or spell the word total. I was looking over an invoice the other day a client emailed me that had the word total misspelled not once but twice and both times it was misspelled differently.
Matter of fact here it is..

Replace downstairs bathrooom sink kit faucet drain and shut offs.
back upstairs bathroom replaced tub kid drains
bathroom sink drains from bathroom throw floor down into ceiling of downstairs to main drain.

Front upstairs bathroom replaced shower tub kit took out old put in new replaced lines to tub.replaced wall in livingroom.

Cellar took out old heat lines on furnace replaced six shut offs on hot lines to apartments,replaced all lines on furnace
flushed out all lines replaced compresion tankand put new water feader,fixed all leaks

I pulled up old tub kit and cleaned ,cleaned up old glue and silicon . I installed new tub kit and sealed .Replaced bad spots in sheet rock .I put in new downspout and fixed ceiling in the down stairs livingroom.




Toltle:$xxxxx

I pulled up bad spot in kitchen floor and fixed it just like new.Fixed flashing around the chimney on the roof.I fixed broken stairs going to upstairs rooms.



Totle:$xxxxx

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT THE HELL AM I PAYING SCHOOL TAXES FOR???????

BTW..this guy had only done about 10% of the work he said he did and the 10% he did actually made the problems worse.

Steve,

Thank God for stupid people, if every one was smart think how hard it would be to get a job.

In the famous words of Judge Smaills (Cadyshack), "The world needs ditch diggers too."

 

[Ski_Banker]

Lets say I make $50k a year. I go to the local exotic car dealer and pick up a new F430. Now the salesman takes a look at my credit and tells me that the credit is decent, but the W2 just won't cut it... but he has a solution. He adds a 3 in front of the $50k to make it $350k. Nevermind it's a 15% car loan for 96 months or I paid $7k for a warranty - my payment is only $2000 a month. Half my freaking salary. Did the dealer commit fraud by changing my income - yes. Did he unethically put me in a bad loan, and screw me on the warranty - yes. But I signed the damn papers.

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be cruising in a F430? It's one thing if you go buy a car you can afford, say a $30k car and the dealer gouges you, etc. But with these people - the dealer is just an accessory to the real crime... trying to live way beyond your means.

Now - if I end up with a $850k house in CA with bogus income statements, ARM loan with a huge balloon, screwed on the points, etc, etc...

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be kicking it in a $850k house?

M.C. Hammer was wrong - "They can touch that." - REPO & FORECLOSURE.

You don't have to be a fricken rocket scientist to know that making $50k a year doesn't let you live like your making $350k a year!

The only thing that sucks about the whole RE debacle is that the good people that are marginal won't be able to get a loan for a house that they can afford because of the morons that ruined for the rest of us.

This all makes perfect sense to you and me. But, we aren't the ones with problems managing a budget and credit. And -- clearly -- the issue isn't just intelligence, or you wouldn't have orthopedic surgeons filing for bankruptcy.

These are easy enough skills to be taught to everyone. Why not? Now that you're "all grown up" do you really think that the hours you spent analyzing motifs in Huckleberry Finn were relevant to your life? What if those hours were just spent talking about budgeting, cash flow, risk and credit?

 

[Ski_Banker]

Steve,

Thank God for stupid people, if every one was smart think how hard it would be to get a job.

In the famous words of Judge Smaills (Cadyshack), "The world needs ditch diggers too."

That's about the most dimwitted, lame, and self centered thing I've ever heard. Cheers for being a classic upper middle class douche that thinks he deserves that position in society.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Ski... you can't fix stupid.

My older brother went to the same private school I went to getting the same education. Then graduated from a good University... Washington University in STL and he's still stupid. He declared BK a couple of years ago and then bought a $900k house in FL with an interest only loan. Then leesed a Mercedes (no money down - even financed the sales tax) and a 36' Sea Ray, a Harley, a CJ7 Jeep, 50" Plasma, remodeled his house, and a PS3 on top of it. He should be busy working trying to keep the cash flow instead of playing PS3. My brother is a stupid person and will probably end up living in Grandma's basement.

Hell, some Arkansas hillbilly, grew up dirt poor and made it to the White House. It's not a money thing, it's not a parental thing, it's not an environment thing... it's a stupid thing. I am sure there are people in Japan, Norway, England and all over this world that are foolish enough to try and live way beyond their means. So it's not even an American thing... but like laying rubber in front of the Dairy Queen, I think American's probably do it better than anyone else.

Hell, the bankers were dumb enough to make these loans... so there are some stupid people there also. But this is American and no one takes personal responsibility. So the person looses his house and goes and rents another one that he can't afford, the banker takes a big bonus and golden parachutes away, the Insurnace Co takes the hit for the bad loans and goes insolvent and the government steps in and makes a bailout. Looks like the only people that are getting screwed are you, me and employees of the bank and insurance company... and we didn't buy anything.

 

[Miner]

Greed and Envy make even fairly intelligent people make foolish decisions. My former stepdaughter literally couldn't go a week without going to the mall and buying something. She got that from her late mother, who was pretty much the same. We live in such a consumer society, we are not satisfied with what we have. Combine that with other people's greed; who are willing to take advantage (legally most of the time) of those who want more than they need.

My folks raised 4 kids on a GS-5 salary. Put us through parochial grade school, put food on the table and clothes on our backs. I'm the only one that lives debt free. I'm also the only 1 who will not get any money from the government's economic stimulus plan. I'm blessed to make good money, but I don't waste it. I get 10 credit card offers a week. Just think, I could max them all out, default and retire.

A&E has a show called Big Spender about people who are in debt so far, they will never get out. One lady added up the clothes in her closets, most never even worn, and it was like $70,000!

As Susan Powter used to say, "Stop the Insanity!"

Miner

 

[Ski_Banker]

Ski... you can't fix stupid.

My older brother went to the same private school I went to getting the same education. Then graduated from a good University... Washington University in STL and he's still stupid. He declared BK a couple of years ago and then bought a $900k house in FL with an interest only loan. Then leesed a Mercedes (no money down - even financed the sales tax) and a 36' Sea Ray, a Harley, a CJ7 Jeep, 50" Plasma, remodeled his house, and a PS3 on top of it. He should be busy working trying to keep the cash flow instead of playing PS3. My brother is a stupid person and will probably end up living in Grandma's basement.

Wash U. is definitely a great school, particularly in medicine. So your brother is stupid then? As in, not intelligent enough to make a good decision? I doubt it.

I'm sure statistics can be had that show Harvard University grad bankruptcies. Are those folks stupid?

I KNOW Harvard MBA bankruptcies are frightfully high for a number of reasons. Stupid? :wink:

 

[docjohn]

I think the current economy is just getting us all riled up,and looking for one thing in particular to blame it on,is wrong.Recession is multifactorial.I do like that it has placed more attention on how we as consumers manage money.I can pretty much bet though that habitual shopping/comfort buying has been around alot longer than this year:wink: I for one can tell you that up until recently med schools did not offer business/financial 101,thus the joke/sad reality is that doctors who make solid incomes make bad business decisions/investments.The big winner in all this are the cable money managers like Suzie Orman!lol What actualy pisses me off is how TV still distorts the publics views on RE.I still see shows on Fine living, hgtv that show flippers getting home prices at 400-500 dol/squ ft for a fricken old fixer upper Sure there are some markets that people will continue to pay upwards of 1000/sqft but those places are in lala land. I agree that greed on the part of lenders, RE angents, and home owners in California/nevada/Arizona/Florida have greatly contributed to our mortgage mess.

 

[steveny]

Steve, what's your point? The guy is an idiot? Ok, fine. Not relevant.

My point is why am I paying school taxes to a school that produces people like the one in my example? Further more why am I paying even more money so that same person can have 15 kids?

 

[steveny]

This all makes perfect sense to you and me. But, we aren't the ones with problems managing a budget and credit. And -- clearly -- the issue isn't just intelligence, or you wouldn't have orthopedic surgeons filing for bankruptcy.

These are easy enough skills to be taught to everyone. Why not? Now that you're "all grown up" do you really think that the hours you spent analyzing motifs in Huckleberry Finn were relevant to your life? What if those hours were just spent talking about budgeting, cash flow, risk and credit?

Back to my example. The reason why is right there the school system pumps out idiots.

Christmas bulbs and butter knifes that's what 95% of the population talks about when they get together. Meaningless BS. Very few people are interested in bettering themselves. You guys here on Prime are lucky enough to live in areas where you can gather with like minded people and bounce ideas off them. Where I live, I am surrounded by idiots. If you are sucessful around here people look down on you.

 

[IsR]

The best thing that my father tought me is to "Be your own banker" If I need something I take a loan out of savings, if I cant do it I dont get it. Yes it's hard but doing this you never have any debt and dont pay 100's of thousands in intrest to the banks / cc's. Cant put 20-30k down on a house stay in a apt. Cant pay for a 30-40k car cash? Get a cheeper one. I love it when my friends tell me, Hey Ryan why don't you get a Ferrari? I tell them "Because I can"

Good advice, just employed this idea fairly recently:smile:
Not really directly related to here... but I like this type of discussion.
US economy right now does make the rest of the world a bit twitchy. But most of the issues brought up here is not only unique to US but pretty sure here, and everywhere too.
From what I see another issue which I noticed lately in our country is between affording something and being able to maintain it. Good example, people around here affording let say US$400k, but to actually 'run' this house is another issue altogether. Albeit the taxes is next to non-existence here presently but this is not taken into account but lots of individuals. Would be a real eye opener if the government decided to introduce/increase taxes or remove/reduce some of the subsidies here.

 

[steveny]

Would be a real eye opener if the government decided to introduce/increase taxes or remove/reduce some of the subsidies here.

It would be a eye opener here to see it go the other way. To really get the US economy going instead of handing out 600 bucks they should permanently remove property and school tax for residential homes. The economy would take off like a rocket.

 

[HTN]

This sure is a hot subject...
I'm in the middle of it every single day. My phone is ringing off the hook with sellers in desperate need to sell NOW, before the bank takes it.
I feel like I'm in a war zone seeing the blood bath right in front of my eyes.
I still believe that bad things can happen to good people. Then again, I also feel that people should not bite off more than they can chew.
From my observations, the ultra luxury homes here in FL is not hurt one bit. On the other hand, middle to lower end homes are on the rise of Foreclosures. The ripple effect of this down turn is likely to touch everyone.
NSX's and other high end luxury items will still be in the hands of responsible individuals and I'm sure the ones not so responsible will have to let it go. This is a great lesson for our country, but unfortunately... it will be forgotten 15 years from now.
I hope to see BALANCE soon.

 

[kiisaka]

This caused him to buy a used Ferrari instead of a new one. :frown: :biggrin:

We all make our share of mistakes.

:biggrin:

 

[DDankew]

Back to my example. The reason why is right there the school system pumps out idiots.

Christmas bulbs and butter knifes that's what 95% of the population talks about when they get together. Meaningless BS. Very few people are interested in bettering themselves. You guys here on Prime are lucky enough to live in areas where you can gather with like minded people and bounce ideas off them. Where I live, I am surrounded by idiots. If you are sucessful around here people look down on you.

Man that is sad being around those types of people. And here in Califonria, with the current budget deficit, the Governor will cut Billions out from our School system. Did you say that the governement want to graduate more idiots out there? Here ya go. All the government want is for people to follow what is told to them via TV, news, etc. They want poeple to watch sports, watch Opra, Watch American Idols...and not think. You guys should watch Zeitgeist the Movie:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

 

[sahtt]

Man that is sad being around those types of people. And here in Califonria, with the current budget deficit, the Governor will cut Billions out from our School system. Did you say that the governement want to graduate more idiots out there? Here ya go. All the government want is for people to follow what is told to them via TV, news, etc. They want poeple to watch sports, watch Opra, Watch American Idols...and not think. You guys should watch Zeitgeist the Movie:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

I'm about an hour in to it. If they want credibility, they need to cite sources. I was listening to the religious stuff with an open mind but I'm so tired of the 911 stuff it's sickening. They do the 'loose change' tactic of using confused reporters as scientists. I'll listen a little more but most of this can be refuted easily by 'screwloosechange'. Here's one for you (not you specifically ddankew), I can't find a single engineering firm willing to say it looked like a controlled demolition. Help me.

 

[DDankew]

Wait until you get into part 3: The Invesment / International Bankers. Out of the 3 parts, this makes the most sense. The government is controlled by Banks/lobbyist. Income tax is unconstitutional. The government is using the Terrorism as a scare tactic so that they can continue to use the Patriot Act to spy /eaves drop/ arrest without warrant.

 

[SilverStone05]

Lets say I make $50k a year. I go to the local exotic car dealer and pick up a new F430. Now the salesman takes a look at my credit and tells me that the credit is decent, but the W2 just won't cut it... but he has a solution. He adds a 3 in front of the $50k to make it $350k. Nevermind it's a 15% car loan for 96 months or I paid $7k for a warranty - my payment is only $2000 a month. Half my freaking salary. Did the dealer commit fraud by changing my income - yes. Did he unethically put me in a bad loan, and screw me on the warranty - yes. But I signed the damn papers.

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be cruising in a F430? It's one thing if you go buy a car you can afford, say a $30k car and the dealer gouges you, etc. But with these people - the dealer is just an accessory to the real crime... trying to live way beyond your means.

Now - if I end up with a $850k house in CA with bogus income statements, ARM loan with a huge balloon, screwed on the points, etc, etc...

What person in their right mind making $50k a year thinks they can be kicking it in a $850k house?

M.C. Hammer was wrong - "They can touch that." - REPO & FORECLOSURE.

You don't have to be a fricken rocket scientist to know that making $50k a year doesn't let you live like your making $350k a year!

The only thing that sucks about the whole RE debacle is that the good people that are marginal won't be able to get a loan for a house that they can afford because of the morons that ruined for the rest of us.

BWhahahahaha. You're killing me man! :biggrin:

 

[steveny]

FBI ischecking into it...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080129/ts_nm/subprime_crime_dc

You know after reading this article I really felt bad for all the people who would have been able to get a loan and pay for it but now that all the greedy people have screwed it up they may never get a chance.