Dyno trouble.

Hi this is Marco posting in Rob's account.

I don't think any of you people posting on this message board were here at the time of the tune, so I'm not sure you should even be chiming in.
I'm sure Manuel appreciates all of your help in diagnosing a car over the internet, But if any of you were licensed Mechanics, Licensed Tuners, Qualified Machinists, with over 15 years of experience maybe you would be taken seriously.
Unfortunately without being in front of the vehicle and having a deep understanding of, Engine mechanics and Standalone ECU's you cannot even begin to speculate on the vehicle. All your assumptions on the internet do nothing but agitate Manuel who is hopelessly looking for answers in clearly all the wrong places. As a professional I would never take advice from a 'forum' unless it was coming from a professional.
The founders of AEM and all the higher ups are all close personal friends of mine and alerted me to this post because they are watching it, trust me they have complete confidence in my abilities, as do my thousands of customers worldwide who bring their vehicles to us.
Currently there are unseen mechanical issues with the car, the car is a high mileage vehicle, and may have other issues which have yet to be diagnosed, the AEM is a used unit, that may have to be sent in for inpection. One of the known issues with the car is timing drift. Timing drift is common with aftermarket ECU's and will vary from car to car with wire resistance, this car being a high mileage car, it could be suffering from these conditions and others. Timing drift can be accounted for and tuned for in the software.
For those of you that don't know what that is, it is when actual ECU timing does not correspond with actual engine timing, verified with a timing light at the crank pulley. So in Manny's case, the car is pulling timing if the ECU reads 26 degrees the actual engine timing will be less.
I'm not sure why our abilities have been questioned, especially by some forum members, maybe they should do their research. I have tuned dozens of Supercharged and Turbocharged NSX's all with great results, Rob's car has reliably made over 480hp for the past 2 years, and the motor has under 5 percent leakdwon on all cylinders. This should be a testament to our abilities. Then again WE put it together and tuned it, so we made sure to cross all of our 't's and dot all of our 'i''s. Sorry Manuel this isnt a shot at him, but he is not a mechanic, he is a hobbyist, with great enthusiasm for his cars, but sometimes just enthusiasm cannot make up for experience and knowledge. He will have to leave that job up to us, we are the professionals.
Manuel has an appointment next week, for us to look at his car, since then we instructed him to patiently wait until we can look over the whole vehicle and find the issue.

So, thank you for all of your specualtion and argument, but when you are not completely informed you just cause more problems than you are trying to solve.

Marco
 
How convenient...

And just as a side note, you have no idea who we are or what we do / know... :wink:


Good luck with your car, MSR...
 
I've had my car tuned by Marco... I have to say he has tuned many NSX'es over the years and about a month ago re-tuned my supercharged car after installing the SOS Intercooler package. I do not think its a lack of experience with the NSX or AEM EMS is what we are talking about her gentlemen, at this point Manuel needs to take his car in and have it diagnosed by the pros. I ran into problems as well when building my car, and mine is a low kms '00.

We do have an excellent online community with lots of skilled people here as well. The key is knowing you are in the hands of skilled & qualified people. Rob's car is a good example of this, and so is mine and the numerous other NSX's running NA or FI not to mention the hundreds of other cars they have tuned over the years. Manuel I suggest you book your car in with Magnus and have it checked over mechanically.

Seeing both Marco & Rob taking the time out of their busy day to even post here about it should show their commitment to helping solve the issue with Manuel's NSX. :smile:
 
Hi this is Marco posting in Rob's account.

I don't think any of you people posting on this message board were here at the time of the tune, so I'm not sure you should even be chiming in.
I'm sure Manuel appreciates all of your help in diagnosing a car over the internet, But if any of you were licensed Mechanics, Licensed Tuners, Qualified Machinists, with over 15 years of experience maybe you would be taken seriously.
Unfortunately without being in front of the vehicle and having a deep understanding of, Engine mechanics and Standalone ECU's you cannot even begin to speculate on the vehicle. All your assumptions on the internet do nothing but agitate Manuel who is hopelessly looking for answers in clearly all the wrong places. As a professional I would never take advice from a 'forum' unless it was coming from a professional.
The founders of AEM and all the higher ups are all close personal friends of mine and alerted me to this post because they are watching it, trust me they have complete confidence in my abilities, as do my thousands of customers worldwide who bring their vehicles to us.
Currently there are unseen mechanical issues with the car, the car is a high mileage vehicle, and may have other issues which have yet to be diagnosed, the AEM is a used unit, that may have to be sent in for inpection. One of the known issues with the car is timing drift. Timing drift is common with aftermarket ECU's and will vary from car to car with wire resistance, this car being a high mileage car, it could be suffering from these conditions and others. Timing drift can be accounted for and tuned for in the software.
For those of you that don't know what that is, it is when actual ECU timing does not correspond with actual engine timing, verified with a timing light at the crank pulley. So in Manny's case, the car is pulling timing if the ECU reads 26 degrees the actual engine timing will be less.
I'm not sure why our abilities have been questioned, especially by some forum members, maybe they should do their research. I have tuned dozens of Supercharged and Turbocharged NSX's all with great results, Rob's car has reliably made over 480hp for the past 2 years, and the motor has under 5 percent leakdwon on all cylinders. This should be a testament to our abilities. Then again WE put it together and tuned it, so we made sure to cross all of our 't's and dot all of our 'i''s. Sorry Manuel this isnt a shot at him, but he is not a mechanic, he is a hobbyist, with great enthusiasm for his cars, but sometimes just enthusiasm cannot make up for experience and knowledge. He will have to leave that job up to us, we are the professionals.
Manuel has an appointment next week, for us to look at his car, since then we instructed him to patiently wait until we can look over the whole vehicle and find the issue.

So, thank you for all of your specualtion and argument, but when you are not completely informed you just cause more problems than you are trying to solve.

Marco

Well my friend, I hope you can figure out the issues.

Just keep in mind that MSR started a thread on a public forum and asked us (NSX owners) if we might know or have seen these issues with any of our own cars.

Since you are such a great tuner (no offence) then you have nothing to worry about because your work speakes for itself and you have 15 years of experience. You shouldn't be threathened by what is said on public forums since its not the first time and it will not be the last.

I hope MSR figures out the issue(s).

MSR, do keep me informed once you guys figure it out and give us the good news with a healthy dyno graph:smile: with good power made.

Good luck

Rahim
 
Car is going back this week for Marco to do his thing .
I will keep you guys posted on what the problem when he finds it, I just really hope is not something stupid I did (like the wastegate)...... That would suck.

-MSR
 
I don't care if he built and tuned a chariot for God. 30 degrees of timing at 10psi is just not healthy.

Also I'm sure the guys over at AEM are somewhat educated in these manners and they seem to agree with me. They noted significant discrepancies in the tune. They saw timing decreasing with RPM's which is counter intuitive, and N/A type timing values at full boost. The evidence disagrees with you, so until something else comes to light, I'm going to stick with my uneducated opinion.

lol... is that chariot using an ems or an fic :smile:

I dont know why people dont listen to you man... for some reason people salute privates here and remain sitting when a general enters the room
 
Hi this is Marco posting in Rob's account.

I don't think any of you people posting on this message board were here at the time of the tune, so I'm not sure you should even be chiming in.
I'm sure Manuel appreciates all of your help in diagnosing a car over the internet, But if any of you were licensed Mechanics, Licensed Tuners, Qualified Machinists, with over 15 years of experience maybe you would be taken seriously.
Unfortunately without being in front of the vehicle and having a deep understanding of, Engine mechanics and Standalone ECU's you cannot even begin to speculate on the vehicle. All your assumptions on the internet do nothing but agitate Manuel who is hopelessly looking for answers in clearly all the wrong places. As a professional I would never take advice from a 'forum' unless it was coming from a professional.
The founders of AEM and all the higher ups are all close personal friends of mine and alerted me to this post because they are watching it, trust me they have complete confidence in my abilities, as do my thousands of customers worldwide who bring their vehicles to us.
Currently there are unseen mechanical issues with the car, the car is a high mileage vehicle, and may have other issues which have yet to be diagnosed, the AEM is a used unit, that may have to be sent in for inpection. One of the known issues with the car is timing drift. Timing drift is common with aftermarket ECU's and will vary from car to car with wire resistance, this car being a high mileage car, it could be suffering from these conditions and others. Timing drift can be accounted for and tuned for in the software.
For those of you that don't know what that is, it is when actual ECU timing does not correspond with actual engine timing, verified with a timing light at the crank pulley. So in Manny's case, the car is pulling timing if the ECU reads 26 degrees the actual engine timing will be less.
I'm not sure why our abilities have been questioned, especially by some forum members, maybe they should do their research. I have tuned dozens of Supercharged and Turbocharged NSX's all with great results, Rob's car has reliably made over 480hp for the past 2 years, and the motor has under 5 percent leakdwon on all cylinders. This should be a testament to our abilities. Then again WE put it together and tuned it, so we made sure to cross all of our 't's and dot all of our 'i''s. Sorry Manuel this isnt a shot at him, but he is not a mechanic, he is a hobbyist, with great enthusiasm for his cars, but sometimes just enthusiasm cannot make up for experience and knowledge. He will have to leave that job up to us, we are the professionals.
Manuel has an appointment next week, for us to look at his car, since then we instructed him to patiently wait until we can look over the whole vehicle and find the issue.

So, thank you for all of your specualtion and argument, but when you are not completely informed you just cause more problems than you are trying to solve.

Marco

Don't forget we were asked to help diagnose the problems. You know nothing of my professional experience so there's no need to tell me I'm not qualified to attempt to help figure out what problems Metal is having. I'm well versed in engine mechanics, and EFI.

So just to get this straight, you measured, with a timing light, the actual timing during a pull and found timing to be drifting enough(IE 15 degrees) that 30 degrees of timing was a safe amount? And also found out that timing was retarded more in the midrange and drifted advanced with rpms? I guess you are right, i had to be there to see that. I understand this stuff happens, i've seen it, but normally a problem that major gets addressed not tuned out. I mean 2-3 degrees drift sure tune it out.

And just an idea, did you try a whole new map from scratch, ive seen corrupted files cause similar problems.

Just to clear things up Marco, What actual timing values were you seeing at 9psi in the midrange and up top?

and naltor what timing values are you running on your 480whp car?
 
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A couple additional things you might consider...

If you purchased a used 1002 EMS, did it come with the 5th ECU connector lead referred to as the "F" plug in the EMS instructions? This plug is responsible for sending the correct signal to your VTEC solenoids to engage them for switchover to the high cam lobe. I've run across customers who purchased used EMS units and did not receive these plugs (and subsequently did not install them) as well as customers that did not install the pins in the correct engine harness pin locations by mistake.

If the engine is not physically switching over to the high cam lobe (even though the software is commanding it to), VE at higher RPM would be reduced allowing more timing advance to effectively be added. Staying on the low cam lobe throughout the entire RPM band would also significantly reduce peak horsepower numbers.

Some timing lights will not read correctly when attached between the NSX ignition module and the primary side of the coil. This might explain the timing drift that you are seeing. Next time you check timing, try making a spark plug wire "bridge" as Beau from AEM mentioned. I use an old 15" long trimmed down Honda plug wire. Connect one side directly to the spark plug the other side using a small metal shunt to the #1 coil laying on top of the valve cover. You can now attach the inductive pickup of your timing light directly to the spark plug wire.

Tell Marco he owes the guys at AEM some Speducci :smile:
 
Lots of eyeballs on this thread. A man's reputation and another man's motor on the line..................... "TUNE" in next week for the conclusion of As The Turbo Turns.
 
Thank you guys,
Devin returned my call last night(thanks Devin) he will be getting on touch with Marco in case he needs some imput, he was very helpful over the phone and said he wants to see this problem sorted tru.
He said him and Marco go way back and no doubt Marco will figure this out after some trouble shooting.


The
Only way I know the Vtec is coming coming on is this way, on the AEM I can see the parameters for Vtec and it's set to engage at 5500rpm, in the Vtec menu it says Vtec OFF, so what I did was just rev the engine passed 5500 and I can see the value OFF change to ON.
And thats what I did a couple times, I don't know if the selenoids are actually coming.

BTW the AEM it's a 1042 unit so the Vtec it's a plug and play harness.


Thank you again,

-MSR

Oh, and thanks to Flexer I got your email with the 40R map.
 
Ok, car is going back to Marco tomorrow, I'll be dropping it off after work.

So I little recap:

Compression test was pretty much 220psi across the board.

The VVIS has been deactivated by unplugging line #3 and I have capped the rubber line side and the metal pipe at the TB, also the plug for TC "solenoid"? Has been unplugged.

No boost leaks.

Vtec seems to be coming on, at least it shows on the software.

One thing that hybrdthry911 said that might have to be check, the file maybe damaged, and the timing issue.

Anyways we'll see wha Marco and Rob can figure out..

-MSR
 
Ok, car is going back to Marco tomorrow, I'll be dropping it off after work.

So I little recap:

Compression test was pretty much 220psi across the board.

The VVIS has been deactivated by unplugging line #3 and I have capped the rubber line side and the metal pipe at the TB, also the plug for TC "solenoid"? Has been unplugged.

No boost leaks.

Vtec seems to be coming on, at least it shows on the software.

One thing that hybrdthry911 said that might have to be check, the file maybe damaged, and the timing issue.

Anyways we'll see wha Marco and Rob can figure out..

-MSR

The fact that you have the pnp and its coming on in the software is a good indicator its working but it could still be mechanically not engaging, or not getting a signal to the solenoids. Given the other timing issues going on i would start elsewhere.
 
Thank you guys,
Devin returned my call last night(thanks Devin) he will be getting on touch with Marco in case he needs some imput, he was very helpful over the phone and said he wants to see this problem sorted tru.
He said him and Marco go way back and no doubt Marco will figure this out after some trouble shooting.


The
Only way I know the Vtec is coming coming on is this way, on the AEM I can see the parameters for Vtec and it's set to engage at 5500rpm, in the Vtec menu it says Vtec OFF, so what I did was just rev the engine passed 5500 and I can see the value OFF change to ON.
And thats what I did a couple times, I don't know if the selenoids are actually coming.

BTW the AEM it's a 1042 unit so the Vtec it's a plug and play harness.


Thank you again,

-MSR

Oh, and thanks to Flexer I got your email with the 40R map.

No problem. I don't mind sharing my maps to help someone out!

JR
 
Marco from Magnus is making some good progress.

He found something wrong with the VTEC system and it wasn't switching over properly. It also sounds like all the scary talk of huge timing drift was inflated by the time it was discussed online and Marco has everything under control.

Some great guys up there at Magnus! Manuel should have some nice dyno plots soon.
 
Quick update, Marco and Rob found the problem.
It was Vtec related , a damned pin on the Vtec harness was bent!!!
My buddy unplugged the ecu when we were doing the install, it most to bent then.

Anyways, the car will be dyno tomorrow(Wednesday )night. Planning on going to the track on Saturday , hopefully everything goes ok.
I'll keep you on the loop.

-MSR
 
Good luck. I just hope that one bent pin was the culprit. If the dyno comes out ok, I would be very, very leery of taking it to the track a few days later. I'd get at LEAST a month of daily driving to work out any other possible issues.

Little inconvenient problems on the street can turn into major costly issues in a heartbeat when subjected to the brutal abuse of constant high rpm and boost on the track.:frown:
 
Quick update, Marco and Rob found the problem.
It was Vtec related , a damned pin on the Vtec harness was bent!!!
My buddy unplugged the ecu when we were doing the install, it most to bent then.

Anyways, the car will be dyno tomorrow(Wednesday )night. Planning on going to the track on Saturday , hopefully everything goes ok.
I'll keep you on the loop.

-MSR

What about the timing problem?
 
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