Don't Pull Your Joints!!! Ball that is! - Pics included.

[ffffanman]

Here are some photos from awhile ago planly showing you why you shouldn't pull your ball joints if you dont have to.
The Acura mechanic that did this resigned from the company a few weeks later.
I had told the service manager not to and gave him many printouts from nsxprime but the info didn't get communicated.
Never the less, I got new parts free of charge.
Trev

 

[ffffanman]

A few more!

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Good info.

The confusion comes about because of the factory's original service procedure to remove the engine recommend separating the control arm ball joints to remove the engine. This was later revised to remove this recommendation since the steel sleeves seize on the ball joints and pop out of the aluminum control arms.

Instead of separating the ball joints, the control arms can be disconnected from the chassis to swing them up and out of the way with the axle, or the entire rear sub assembly can be removed as a unit from the chassis.

Cheers,
-- Chris

 

[myhui]

We can redirect this discussion to the question of why the NSX failed in the marketplace.

Was it because the dealer network was not set up to take care of both the car and the type of owners they'll likely encounter?

Would a Ferrari dealer's service department make that type of mistake? Now, I am by no means presuming the answer to that question at all. I am looking for a frank and open discussion, not speculations and hearsay.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Due to the complexity and unique materials, I think the factory did a stellar job with the documentation of the service manual.

The control arms are a prime example. The use of lightweight forged aluminum control arms in a production car was and continues to be rare.

I don't think the dealership can be faulted 100% since they were following the original recommended procedure from the factory. They sure would have saved some money if they had followed the procedure Trev gave them. Inevitably, ways are found to do things better (such as engine removal). In comparison, the service manual I have seen for a 348 and 355 was ridiculous and nearly useless.

-- Chris

 

[Larry Bastanza]

I totally agree they should not have been pulled, in fact the newer service manuals change this procedure, and I thought there was even a service bulletin about the procedure change(but I cannot find it here in the FAQ)

With that said, from the pics I see, the bottom line(IMHO),is the factory ball joint tool was misused in this case. I know these are difficult, and IIRC, I recommended to Trev, at the time, they do not pull the ball joints.


IMO this has little, if anything, to do with the NSX and failure in the marketplace. Just a slight lack of experience on the part of one tech.

Regards,
LarryB

 

[01blacks4]

IMO you can hardly call a 15+ year run, with very little change a failure in the marketplace

 

[Thom]

Chris and Larry,
From your experience: Is there a safe and repeatable way to separate ball joint connections on the NSX?

 

[pixelhaus]

I second that question.
What is recommended when boots are ripped? Since the only way to replace them is by separation of the ball joints.

I'm running into this issue right now. I tried to 'carefully' separate one ball joint by applying slight tension and increasing that tension incrementally over the span of a few days hoping that eventually it would break free. I also tried applying heat to the joint and even simultaneously striking the sides with ball peen hammers. Well, after a few days and one final turn of the bolt on the ball joint remover, the bolt on the tool snapped in two! (cheap tool I guess). I gave up at that point as figured that it was never coming apart.

the trick is to be able to apply enough pressure without bending or breaking the threaded post. Maybe if a sleeve of some sort was developed that covered the entire threaded area of the post to give it added support, the failure rate could be reduced?

I hope there is a solution, because I buying all new control arms just to replace a rubber boot seems a bit ridiculous.

 

[Synthesis]

I second that question.
What is recommended when boots are ripped? Since the only way to replace them is by separation of the ball joints.

I'm running into this issue right now. I tried to 'carefully' separate one ball joint by applying slight tension and increasing that tension incrementally over the span of a few days hoping that eventually it would break free. I also tried applying heat to the joint and even simultaneously striking the sides with ball peen hammers. Well, after a few days and one final turn of the bolt on the ball joint remover, the bolt on the tool snapped in two! (cheap tool I guess). I gave up at that point as figured that it was never coming apart.

the trick is to be able to apply enough pressure without bending or breaking the threaded post. Maybe if a sleeve of some sort was developed that covered the entire threaded area of the post to give it added support, the failure rate could be reduced?

I hope there is a solution, because I buying all new control arms just to replace a rubber boot seems a bit ridiculous.

well, as far as removing the ball joints from studs from the knuckle..... you should fit a nut, so that you are pushing on that, rather than the actual stud.
also, make sure you have the right size ball joint tool. it should be able to make it to the top, center of the stud to apply direct pressure and minimize any deformation.

BUT, i guess i have a question too, heh. i was thinking about changing the ball joints themselves out just because they are old (1991)..... and i think new, tighter ones would be nice. good idea? bad idea? how much do they cost typically? any special procedures to actually remove them?

 

[pixelhaus]

unfortunately, the nut trick doesn't always work.
even with the nut, the amount of pressure typically results in damage.
that's why i was suggesting a full sleeve solution.
But, that may not even be a viable solution.

Any experts out there?

 

[ffffanman]

As far as I know, the ball joints are not available by themselves.
You have to change out the whole assembly!!!
There was a guy once that found a balljoint that fit in his assembly but when I contacted him, he couldn't remember which one it was. He basically went to his buddies store and open one box at a time and finally found something that fit.

Trev

 

[titaniumdave]

Larry or Chris,
Any ideas on getting a really stuck ball joint out? I am using a tall nut threaded down so only one thread is showing, Honda ball joint separator is loaded so much it bends 5mm from flat, tried heat cycling the joint with a torch, shocking it with a hammer once loaded with the tool...

Next????????

 

[pixelhaus]

I'm in the same boat T-Dave.
did the same things you did with the same results
man, those things are TIGHT

 

[Synthesis]

i'm removing the trans right now again..... and one of mine was stuck (last one, of course) so i just left it in there and removed the pivot bolts (LCA).

man, all this messing around with the ball joints, i hope i'm not ruining them.

 

[pixelhaus]

you do not need to separate your ball joints when removing the tranny.
or entire engine for that matter.

just swing the arms up out of the way and pull the axles out.

 

[RON98]

lots of lube and use a snap-on gear puller.

It has worked great for us. The arms are adjustable and will allow you to get a firm grip on the lower arm while leaving enough room to push the whole ball joint assembly out.

make sure to keep the castle nut flush with the bolt and what works better is to replace the castle nut with a regular nut of the same thread size with out the castle lock grove. This allows you to put more force with out damaging the threads.

this method wil allow you to remove the ball join assembly with out touching the boots or damaging the threads.

If the threads are damage by chance, you can take a small file and correct/make new threads. File trick works really well on axle threads which are damaged during removal. :smile:

 

[Synthesis]

you do not need to separate your ball joints when removing the tranny.
or entire engine for that matter.

just swing the arms up out of the way and pull the axles out.

i meant i popped them out of the knuckle.... not out of the control arms themselves....
i hope you meant you don't have to take them out of the control arms, because you definitely need to separate them from the knuckle.....

 

[Synthesis]

also, last time i removed the trans, i damaged one of the ball joint studs.... slightly deformed the first few threads. i had to hit them with the needle file.

luckly nothing happened to them this time.... but it's just another reason why i want to replace my ball joints

 

[pixelhaus]

i meant i popped them out of the knuckle.... not out of the control arms themselves....
i hope you meant you don't have to take them out of the control arms, because you definitely need to separate them from the knuckle.....

No, you don't have to separate the ball joint from the knuckle.
Just remove the 2 bolts connecting the lower control arm to the sub-frame assembly and swing out the lower control arm assembly pulling upward and the axle will slide right out.

 

[Synthesis]

right, that's what i ended up doing for the one where the ball joint didn't come out.... i didn't feel like messing with it because it was being a pain.

 

[nsx-tech]

I totally agree they should not have been pulled, in fact the newer service manuals change this procedure, and I thought there was even a service bulletin about the procedure change(but I cannot find it here in the FAQ)

With that said, from the pics I see, the bottom line(IMHO),is the factory ball joint tool was misused in this case. I know these are difficult, and IIRC, I recommended to Trev, at the time, they do not pull the ball joints.


IMO this has little, if anything, to do with the NSX and failure in the marketplace. Just a slight lack of experience on the part of one tech.

Regards,
LarryB

There was a bulletin for this and the dealer and tech should have looked for it before doing the work.

 

[Synthesis]

ok, i guess i didn't read everything through the first time around....

so my following the 91 service manual to remove the trans was pretty much wrong

now i wish i never undid the ball joints the first time around. oh well.

so we know it's risky to remove the joints from the knuckles (guess i got lucky i didn't run into any bigger problems).....

but what if i want to replace the whole ball joint?

(sorry for my nonsense posts earlier, heh)

 

[thouchin]

Larry or Chris,
Any ideas on getting a really stuck ball joint out? I am using a tall nut threaded down so only one thread is showing, Honda ball joint separator is loaded so much it bends 5mm from flat, tried heat cycling the joint with a torch, shocking it with a hammer once loaded with the tool...

Next????????

I haven't tried it yet but how about a Pnuematic Engraving Pen... I have heard of people breaking loose rusted bolts, ect. with these. If you load up the seperator tool and then vibrate the shaft it may break loose.

T.J.

 

[Alex]

No, you don't have to separate the ball joint from the knuckle.
Just remove the 2 bolts connecting the lower control arm to the sub-frame assembly and swing out the lower control arm assembly pulling upward and the axle will slide right out.

Do I have to remove the axle from the Hub ??