Do you think Honda/Acura moniters this site?

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by effer:

So you can count on me if we want to send something to Honda Acura.

Anybody interested?

Should we start a dedicated topic for this and organising ourselves?

I feel that we should at lest to it even though we won't be sure that guys at Hoda will pay serious attention to it...

Don't have a problem w/that. I suppose it would be possible to send a general question from this site in regards to the interest w/have about a new and better NSX in 04 to the PR Dept. or related area of AmHonda. Don't know if its worthy b/c Honda has its own thoughts. If anything is sent to them it would have to come from Lud, since its his site.

 

[true]

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
Is their any truth to rumor of a Z being produced for ALMS or similar street version.

This is supposed to be the 350Z that is competing in the ALMS next season.

<img src=http://auto.ascii24.com/auto24/issue/2002/0730/images/images666200.jpg>

 

[blurr]

Originally posted by Chuck:

Then they released the Zanardi. How many rushed to buy them?

The reason they sold so slowly was because most dealers marked them up to over 100K. One of the things that drew me to the NSX is the fact that if you wait till the end of the year you can get a new one for low 70's and that is more in line with what they are worth. I now have a Zanardi instead of another new one because I wanted a coupe and the additional stock performance. I would have ordered a New '02 if I had the option for a coupe for low 70's. The performance just doesn't justify anything higher.

Originally posted by true:

This is supposed to be the 350Z that is competing in the ALMS next season.

$75,000 will get you one from Nissan. I wish Honda offered the same type of program on RSX's and NSX's.
450HP
2400lbs
Here is the specs sheet for the 350Z race car.

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 17 October 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by blurr:
The reason they sold so slowly was because most dealers marked them up to over 100K.

That's simply not true. Most dealers were asking MSRP ($84K) and most of the rest were selling them for significantly less than MSRP.

 

[jstramotas]

Hey guys. I have a heavily modded 91 NSX and am the Product Planner for the 350Z. Honda Product Planners do not lurk on this site. None of them I know are enthusiasts. The only reason we have the NSX and the S2000 is because there are some car guys in Japan.

Please remember that Honda is on the bottom of the totum pole when it comes to street performance in Japan (not racing). When Honda had only the NSX and the GSR (if you call that a sports car), we had the Skyline GTS & GTR, Turbo Silvia, 300ZX & 300ZX Twin Turbo. Real rear wheel drive powerhouses. Whether you like it or not Honda is the most conservative of all the Japanese car company's. Honda product planners are not too "in-touch" with us, especially since only a handful of NSX's have been sold since 1995. They have little influence on the Japanese and are noting but information relay's. They don't care about us...boo...hoo...most of us bought our NSX used and payed 30K-40K. Keep dreaming about your future NSX......you'll be lucky if it's here by 2006. Guaranteed.

This is not to say that I don't love my car...'cause I do.... How' bout that Honda Element & Pilot!!...please....

 

[Number9]

Originally posted by jstramotas:
Whether you like it or not Honda is the most conservative of all the Japanese car company's.

That's pretty funny. One may critique Honda for not iterating the NSX frequently enough, but when they first brought it out, it was a huge business risk and a technological tour-de-force. Nissan didn't and still hasn't done anything nearly as bold or risky other than nearly driving itself into the ground prior to its salvation by outsider Ghosn.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by jstramotas:
Hey guys. I have a heavily modded 91 NSX and am the Product Planner for the 350Z.

I assume you must be Tino's son ? Can you tell us if this Z will be available for the street in the near future w/similar HP. Also, from what site can we see more pics of the ALMS Z or street version.

 

[jstramotas]

The Nismo site (http://www.nismo.co.jp/)as well as many of the 350Z sites have some images.
my350Z.com
zcar.com
freshalloy.com
...enjoy....and yes I'm Tino's son...

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by jstramotas:
Whether you like it or not Honda is the most conservative of all the Japanese car company's.

How' bout that Honda Element & Pilot!!...please....

Good. Nissan has experienced a long, steady decline in large part by underestimating its competitors. Keep thinking that way and it can only continue.

Your charges sound just like your dad's ridiculous charges here that Honda hasn't changed much of its lineup in seven years.

Not much, except for almost every car they've got, some more than once.

Hey, we all know that Honda is not perfect. Yes, their styling is conservative. And their marketing is so-so - about average, really, for most of their cars, but they've ignored the NSX. But they're superb in product quality, superb in value, and no one in the industry has a better reputation among the American public or among automotive enthusiasts. Many of Honda's models are widely considered the best in class (Odyssey, MDX, Accord, RSX, and some would say NSX

) while others are the best for the money (TL-S, CL-S, S2000).

Right now Nissan/Infiniti has a few good offerings - but only a few. The G35 is very, very good, similar in many respects to the Acura TL-S and CL-S, which has been the value champion in the near-luxury segment, selling for many thousands less than competitors from BMW, Lexus, etc. The 350Z is a nice car... close, but no cigar. It just came in too heavy, and as a result, it's too slow, with 0-60 times in the mid to high fives when competitors like the non-Z06 Corvette and the M3 are almost a full second faster.

Go beyond the G35 and 350Z, though, and what do you find? The Altima and the Maxima are ho-hum alternatives to the class-leading Accord and Camry. The Sentra line is a non-player compared with the Civic, and it's a shame they put the formerly-respected SE-R badge on the current, unexciting model. There's nothing to compare with an RSX-S. The only minivan is a warmed-over Ford, while the Honda Odyssey is the best in the business. There's no SUV that compares with the MDX, the best mid-sized SUV in the world.

The bottom line is that Honda and Acura have a much wider range of vehicles than Nissan and Infiniti, and most of Honda's are best in class. Infiniti has a history of poor product (if you don't believe me, just read the first paragraph of the G35 article in the new October 21 AutoWeek) and aside from the G35/350Z platform, nothing to set anyone's heart racing in either the Infiniti or Nissan lines. If the styling of some Hondas is conservative, Nissan's is even more so, and boring. And in the car business, boring is deadly.

 

[BostonNSX]

things..are getting complex on the posts.. as usual again..

------------------
the art of chasing down my friend's white 3000gt at com. ave


NSXCA # 1690 "Sabrina"

 

[blurr]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
The 350Z is a nice car... close, but no cigar. It just came in too heavy, and as a result, it's too slow, with 0-60 times in the mid to high fives when competitors like the non-Z06 Corvette and the M3 are almost a full second faster.

There's nothing to compare with an RSX-S.

Actually I would consider the 350Z a competitor to the RSX-S not the Vette, M3, NSX. Look at the price.

I just configured a base 350z with minimal options I would want @ $26,878 (289hp/274 ft/lb torque) RWD

RSX-S with minimal options I would want came up to $26,251. (200hp/142ft/lb torque) FWD

I have looked at these 2 alot. Not once did I think 350z or Vette, just 350z or RSX. And when you compare them, the Z looks way better in the performance department.

[This message has been edited by blurr (edited 18 October 2002).]

 

[MvM]

I think my perspective is a bit different since I don't live in the US but in Europe.
Honda has a completely different image in Europe than it has in the US. First, their market share is much less. Second, in Europe Honda is just one of the many Japanese car makers. The average drive will usually pick a European car over a Japanese car, especially in the up-market. Mercedes, BMW, Porsche and Audi are the main brands here.

That said, I think the point Effer was making about the NSX having 911-potential is true. Because the NSX has been in production for so long it does stand out in a unique way compared to any other Japanese carmodel.
The Porsche 911 has evolved over many years and although the latest model is far different from the first, it is always recognisable as a 911. It has also been upgraded all the time to keep up with the competition. Mind you, the 911 is not first in all categories but I don't think that is what matters most.
The same should go for the new NSX.
I think Honda should keep the original NSX lay-out as it is, and just upgrade the car with better handling, higher performance, same reliability and keep the same general pricing. How they do that is up to them. Honda knows very well the NSX is their business-card. It was designed to be that. As long as Honda continues to pursue the NSX as being their show-case model I won't worry to much. All it would take for them is to make a commitment to the NSX in the same way many of us are committed to their NSX.

I hope that Honda will just MAKE that decision....

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by MvM:


That said, I think the point Effer was making about the NSX having 911-potential is true. Because the NSX has been in production for so long it does stand out in a unique way compared to any other Japanese carmodel.
The Porsche 911 has evolved over many years and although the latest model is far different from the first, it is always recognisable as a 911. It has also been upgraded all the time to keep up with the competition. Mind you, the 911 is not first in all categories but I don't think that is what matters most.
The same should go for the new NSX

I saw Effer's comment, but you expand on it and it does make a good point. I suppose that may be Honda's thinking, however the "little tweaks" as was stated in a Autoweek publication by someone about the NSX development doesn't wash b/c sales figures tell the truth. I suppose they may not be that concerned as owners are making the major tweaks.

As long as Honda continues to pursue the NSX as being their show-case model I won't worry to much. All it would take for them is to make a commitment to the NSX in the same way many of us are committed to their NSX.

I hope that Honda will just MAKE that decision....

If Honda continues the NSX as a showcase model and want to establish it like the 911 they are way behind. All one has to do is look at whats available in the past 10 years from Porsche.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by blurr:
Actually I would consider the 350Z a competitor to the RSX-S not the Vette, M3, NSX. Look at the price.

The 350Z is trying to be a sports car. The RSX-S is in no way a sports car. The RSX-S is a sporty compact coupe, the replacement for the Integra GS-R. I would never consider taking an RSX-S onto a racetrack. The 350Z has a track model and is attempting to portray itself as a sports car.

Perhaps a better comparison is the S2000, which is similar in price to the 350Z but is a good half a second faster to 60, despite a significant (47) horsepower disadvantage.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
The 350Z is trying to be a sports car

Don't disagree w/the 350Z that available now, but if a ALMS version is made for the street de-tuned so to speak @ $75k/400+HP and lets say 3000lbs to meet saftey standards, I would say it could make a claim. Will be interesting to see if its done. Personally, I hope they do, competition from someone else in Japan make wake Honda up over here.

 

[nsxtasy]

Incidentally, one more point...

Originally posted by jstramotas:
How' bout that Honda Element & Pilot!!...please....

I think the Honda Pilot is going to be a huge sales success. The Acura MD-X on which it is based has a 3-4 month waiting list at most dealers. The only reason Honda can't sell more is that they can't build them fast enough. But they've done something about this, opening the plant in Lincoln Alabama to build Odysseys, freeing up additional production capacity in the Ontario plant for more SUVs. The Pilot is an ever-so-slightly decontented MD-X with a price thousands of dollars less, and gives them this top-notch SUV for their Honda dealers. Sounds like a sure hit.

And you can say many things about the funky Honda Element, which is about to be introduced and is not as certain for sales success - but the one thing that it demonstrates is that Honda is anything but conservative.

 

[Jimbo]

One thing you can say about the 350Z (as opposed to the NSX) is....

When you look at the car and what you get and then you mention the price...most people go...

WOW!

That's a lot of car for the money.

It might be a bit on the heavy side and I'm still so-so about the styling, but I think the "value" proposition is very good. It's the same thing with the Z06.

Sure there are issues with the Z06, but for $50K, when you look at the level of track/street performance, $50K is an amazing bargain.

It's my contention that at a $85K-$90K sticker price, not too many people have the same reaction about the NSX.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

 

[NSXTC]

I love the NSX as much as anyone here, but I have to agree with Tom about his comparison to the 911.

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
If Honda continues the NSX as a showcase model and want to establish it like the 911 they are way behind. All one has to do is look at whats available in the past 10 years from Porsche.

I also think that what jstramotas said about there being very few real "car guys" at Honda is true. In fact, I only know of one employee at American Honda who I consider a real "car guy". While the Odyssey and MDX are class leading cars, it takes a real "car guy" (i.e. an enthusiast) to help shape the NSX. I don't think anyone will argue that the Odyssey, MDX, etc are not "enthusiast" cars.

Bottom line is that the NSX im sorry to say is not seriously considered by anyone (other than perhaps a few of us hardcore enthusiasts) today to be a class leading GT or sports car.

It simply has not evolved sufficiently over the years to keep up with the times. Maybe the long-awaited "next-gen" NSX will resolve this situation...we will have to see.

The Ad campaign for the NSX is dry and unimaginative. The car is generally perceived by the greater enthusiast public (i.e. other than NSX folks) to be a nice car, but overpriced and outdated.

It's not hard to wonder why so few are sold these days.

Sorry to sound so negative, but Honda REALLY needs a reality check IMHO.




------------------
All My NSX'es Live in Texas

 

[cojones]

Originally posted by NSXTC:
Sorry to sound so negative, but Honda REALLY needs a reality check IMHO.

jstramotas -- can you share any more info about plans for the ALMS version of the 350Z ??

Specifically, plans to release a streetable version for homologation purposes. You don't want Porsche and others to whine away like they did with the M3 GTR, right ??

If they can price this competitively, it would be an interesting reality check.

 

[victoria_nsx]

This is becoming an interesting thread, especially after the Z Product Planner chimed in. I'm in the market for a car--a sports car--new or used doesn't matter--but value does. My choices are early NSX, mid-90's 911, 350Z, and later year E36 M3. Three of the four are used cars. Why? Because there are no new sports cars in my price range.

Nsxtasy, I always enjoy your posts, but I think you're slightly off the mark here on your comparisons. You said "the 350Z is trying to be a sports car". That part is true. But they're not marketing to the same crowd as the Z06 and M3. Nissan couldn't possible deliver a truly comparable product and performance for $20K less than those two cars. But they have come damn close, in my opinion. Everyone I talk to says they can't believe the price of the 350Z--doesn't matter if they like the car or not. I have driven a Performance model 350Z and it is an *incredible* deal. What else can you get in its price category? I'm in Canada, and there is a $7000 price difference between the S2000 and the 350Z. I don't want a convertible, but I do want some torque. No contest. Maybe with the RX-8 and new Supra on the horizon, my choices for new cars will expand. So why are Nissan, Toyota, and Mazda all entering the sports car fray again? I think it's because they can deliver a very desirable car for a fantastic price. That is/was the NSX's achilles heel--very desirable, but not a perceived "great deal". If the goal of a manufacturer is to sell cars, 200-300 units a year ain't gonna cut it. I, for one, believe the Z Product Planner, and don't expect to see anything too sporty from Honda for awhile.

 

[Jimbo]

Victoria,

Nicely put. I agree.

I think the 350Z Track Edition is not merely trying to be a sports car. It is a sports car. And the value quotient is high.

I agree that the 350Z is closer to the S2000, but the 350Z might be better equipped for the track with its solid roof, Brembo brakes and other track-specific options.

And for normal driving the S2000, with its high-strung engine that needs to be wound out to the redline in order to get it perform, it might not be as good as the 350Z.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Honda guy, but we need to give credit where's credit's due.

One more thought about value and price on the NSX. The NSX might have been able to command a $85K...

IF Honda had updated the car and kept it current and fresh. They could have gave it HID lights much earlier than they did, in-dash CD/MP3 player, i-VTEC V6 with 300HP....heck they could have even updated the car with a turbo or a supercharger. With those changes I do believe I would have said, WOW!!!, what a value!

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 18 October 2002).]

 

[jstramotas]

Hey guys, the Z is not an M3(E46) or Z06 competitor, unless you compare $50K sports cars to $28 sports cars. Z range is ($26,200-$34,000 w/Brembos) Same HP and same suspension on all 350Z models.

However, when compared to S2000, the Z is considerably more fun to drive especially at the limit. The S2 is very nervous at the limit, hence why Honda changed the suspension settings for 2003. Also, unless you drop the clutch at 8K rpm & abuse the car, you'll never get a sub 6.0 second 0-60 on the S2. The S2 is also noisy and small. This is not to say that I don't like it, I love the S2, but an auto Z is faster provided you don't drop the clutch on the S2 at 8K.

As far as chassis is concerned the Z is light years ahead of the NSX (sorry guys we're talking 10 years of chassis advancement). Chassis rigidity is much better in the Z, the NSX has a notoriously bad chassis...even the S2 is stiffer/better than the NSX. Anyway, all said and done....I'm glad you guys are comparing the Z to more expensive cars like the NSX & Z06.

Frankly, I will always love my NSX because it is wonderful & beautiful car...all great cars have their shortcomings.

BTW, the Z will go 0-60 in 5.4 with a 1/4 mile best of 13.9 as published in Sport Compact Car and puts down about 250HP to the wheels (more than a 3.0L stock NSX). I didn't realize the S2000 did 0-60 in 4.9...thanks for the constructive input Ken.

 

[bboxer]

My 25 years of exposure to the Ferrari crowd sure got me used to snobs, but not the NSX crowd ! Come on guys, surely the Z IS a sports car with CF drive shaft, forged aluminum suspension, Brembo brakes, 286HP, gobbles of torque, 6 speed and two seats. If you mean it pretends to be an "exotic", I would agree with you but had you seen it perform tests against 996, NSX, Boxster S, M3, M Coupe and the like on road courses, you wouldn't say that. As a Ferrari owner, I think it is the NSX that pretends to be an exotic, but who cares, it's one heck of a car, albeit outdated, and expensive. And please do not compare the Z to the S2K. I've got one of those in my garage and it is the noisiest,most uncomfortable,and unbarable car to own. The Z ceratinly isn't, and at that price, it is the best deal in town.IMHO.

 

[mlambert890]

bboxer, I think you missed something...

No one here is being a snob at all. The point was made by Ken that the 350Z misses the mark as a sports car compared to the Corvette and BMW M3.

A comment was then made that the 350Z isn't trying to compete with the Vette and M3, but rather was trying to compete with the Acura RSX since the 350Z is priced from $28-$34k.

No one is knocking the 350Z or being a snob.

The Z is what it is... It's a great value and a decent sports car.

Personally, I would have much preferred if the 350Z were a much better car and were $10k more expensive. As it is, it's mildly interesting, but hardly revolutionary in any way, and will be ubiquitous in a year.

My budget for new cars is generally in the $50-$60k range and I can honestly say I wouldn't consider the 350Z for even a second. I hope if Toyota decides to bring the Supra back to the USA they aim squarely at the Corvette rather than dipping in to the low-end sports car market.

 

[Ponyboy]

Since when did the NSX have a "notoriously bad chassis?" Am I missing something? Are you talking about coupe or targa?

[This message has been edited by Ponyboy (edited 18 October 2002).]