Direct Turbo System Dyno Comparison - LoveFab vs. "Brand X".

[Cody@LoveFab]

Hey guys,

A customer brought his 120,000 mile 1991 to us wanting more low-end torque out of his already-turbocharged NSX. We strapped the car to the dyno for a "baseline", which resulted in 352.9WHP and 250.7WTQ at 5 psi.

We removed the large turbo from the kit and installed a Billet 58mm Precision charger. Complimenting the turbo swap, we also installed an AEM EMS, Walbro Pump, RC 750cc injectors and then tuned it to a safe threshold. At 8 psi, with the 58mm Precision installed in the "Brand X" kit, the car made a healthy 397.1WHP and 273.9WTQ with massive low-end gains.

The customer was hoping for more power. I suggested that we swap over to the LoveFab Stage 2 turbo system, which should net an impressive power gain. I also wanted a chance to directly compare our Stage 2 against the competition. Direct power losses/gains would be recorded because the same turbo was used in both tests, and at the same boost levels.

We installed the LoveFab Stage 2 system with the same 58mm Precision turbo, and retuned the car. The same dyno was used, with the same dyno settings, and very similar atmospheric conditions were present during both sessions. The end result is impressive to say the least.

"Brand X" turbo kit, 8 psi. 397.1WHP/273.9WTQ
LoveFab Stage 2, 8psi. 455.9WHP/322.3WTQ

LoveFab Stage 2 Gains: 58.8WHP and 48.4WTQ


Final Dyno Comparison Graph. "Brand X" baseline vs. LoveFab Stage 2

LoveFab Stage 2 Gains: 103WHP and 71.6WTQ

"Impressive power gains Cody," were the first words from the customer after his first drive. We tend to agree.

 

[NetViper]

What is the finished product like on 6psi? I would think it would be safer for daily driving.

 

[chudson1549]

nice numbers Cody

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

5psi:

6psi:

 

[chudson1549]

Yeah I wouldnt be upset with those numbers..That a good looking curve

 

[NetViper]

wow. 6psi... PERFECT.

How different would that dyno chart look using FIC vs full AEM?

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

What is the finished product like on 6psi? I would think it would be safer for daily driving.

Even though the car is making 455WHP, it is not "unsafe".

This comparison test was a perfect example of "psi does not equal power". What's more stressful for the motor? A bogged down 397WHP or a spritely 455WHP? How about the 497WHP at just 9psi from our shop car?

The cars are running MUCH more efficiently because of our package's overall design. Dig through the past three years of our results, the numbers are getting higher and higher, while the boost pressures are getting lower and lower. The day is near when you will no longer have to build the motor to reliably reach and run at 500WHP with pump gas.

 

[NetViper]

Even though the car is making 455WHP, it is not "unsafe".

This comparison test was a perfect example of "psi does not equal power". What's more stressful for the motor? A bogged down 397WHP or a spritely 455WHP? How about the 497WHP at just 9psi from our shop car?

The cars are running MUCH more efficiently because of our package's overall design. Dig through the past three years of our results, the numbers are getting higher and higher, while the boost pressures are getting lower and lower. The day is near when you will no longer have to build the motor to reliably reach and run at 500WHP with pump gas.

Right, but we know at 500WHP you might not have a motor problem with your setup, but other things start breaking.

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Such as?

I have daily driven 700+WHP NSX's for years. The only time things broke was pushing well over 700WHP in drag racing applications.

The NSX is nearly bulletproof at 500WHP. With good tuning, and a good clutch, I can't see anything breaking unless you're abusing the snot out of the car(think 7000rpm clutch drops with ET Streets).

 

[NetViper]

Such as?

I have daily driven 700+WHP NSX's for years. The only time things broke was pushing well over 700WHP in drag racing applications.

The NSX is nearly bulletproof at 500WHP. With good tuning, and a good clutch, I can't see anything breaking unless you're abusing the snot out of the car(think 7000rpm clutch drops with ET Streets).

Looking at Bryans posts: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147127

 

[Mac Attack]

This is why psi is not a good benchmark for power.

Folks, psi alone does not make power. It is pressure AND flow rate.

If Cody's design is making more power at the same pressure, then that means his layout is more efficient and FLOWS better.

Good job Cody!

Dave

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Here is a 99 NSX with a Stage 1 kit that was finished two days prior to this car. 8 psi as well. Older 61mm Precision non-billet turbo. The Meth Injection was non-operational for this run. Also, this is an FIC car for you NetViper.

 

[NetViper]

This is why psi is not a good benchmark for power.

Folks, psi alone does not make power. It is pressure AND flow rate.

If Cody's design is making more power at the same pressure, then that means his layout is more efficient and FLOWS better.

Good job Cody!

Dave

So if Design A makes 600HP at 8 psi and Design B makes 500HP at 8psi, is there more stress on the motor in Design A or not?

 

[Mac Attack]

So if Design A makes 600HP at 8 psi and Design B makes 500HP at 8psi, is there more stress on the motor in Design A or not?

Yes, there is more stress on the engine with Design A then, assuming peak power is around the same RPM.

The more power your engine is making, the more stress is placed on the engine internals.

Now, "turbo" stress may be less with Design A (bearing load is reduced with reduced backpressure, etc), but you probably won't notice a difference in rebuild times.

Dave

 

[NetViper]

Yes, there is more stress on the engine with Design A then, assuming peak power is around the same RPM.

The more power your engine is making, the more stress is placed on the engine internals.

Now, "turbo" stress may be less with Design A (bearing load is reduced with reduced backpressure, etc), but you probably won't notice a difference in rebuild times.

Dave

Ok. That didnt make sense to me.

So just because I can run say 450HP (design a) vs 400HP both at 8psi using different systems doesn't mean the motor is under the same level of stress since Design A makes more HP and TQ.

My thinking is that if Design A can make 400rwhp at 6psi and B 400rwhp at 8psi, Design A will be much safer in the long run because there is less pressure on the motor. Is that right or wrong?

 

[Mac Attack]

If they're both making the same power at the same RPM, then they have equal stress on the motor.

Dave

 

[NetViper]

If they're both making the same power at the same RPM, then they have equal stress on the motor.

Dave

So PSI is irrelavant.

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Cylinder pressures are highly relavent. If the engine is making more power for a given cylinder pressure, than there will be no additional stress on the engine.

Restrictive or improperly designed exhaust components will cause spikes in cylinder pressures...

 

[NetViper]

Cylinder pressures are highly relavent. If the engine is making more power for a given cylinder pressure, than there will be no addtional stress on the engine.

Restrictive or improperly designed exhaust components will cause spikes in cylinder pressures...

So that is the opposite of what Dave said....and going back to my question... then 400rwhp at 6psi is safer/easier on the motor than 400rwhp at 8psi.

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

That is my understanding, and my experience. More boost pressure will raise cylinder pressures. If you're making equal HP at less boost pressure, there will be less stress on the engine.

*This is assuming that timing values are identical as well.

 

[E-Nough Logic]

Did the customer add any remarks about how responsive the new turbocharger is, looking at the dynograph it seems to spool up a lot faster. The results appear exactly as i expected from a 58mm billet wheel. Clearly that 58mm unit can meet the stock engine's airflow demands at 5-8psi without any unnecessary torque or added stress on the motor compared to a larger turbo. Do you think there is a better turbo out there for a stock motor high 300-low 400whp goals?

 

[NetViper]

How does the mustang dyno numbers compare to dyno dynamics?

Also. When you add meth that cools the air but does it do anything foe cylinder pressure?

 

[Mac Attack]

Cylinder pressures are highly relavent. If the engine is making more power for a given cylinder pressure, than there will be no additional stress on the engine.

Restrictive or improperly designed exhaust components will cause spikes in cylinder pressures...

No, there will be more stress on the crankshaft, journals, pistons, etc anytime you increase power.

That is correct - improperly designed exhaust components will cause spikes in cylinder pressures.

Without a way to measure cylinder pressures, a lot of the comparison is speculation.

Dave

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Did the customer add any remarks about how responsive the new turbocharger is, looking at the dynograph it seems to spool up a lot faster. The results appear exactly as i expected from a 58mm billet wheel. Clearly that 58mm unit can meet the stock engine's airflow demands at 5-8psi without any unnecessary torque or added stress on the motor compared to a larger turbo. Do you think there is a better turbo out there for a stock motor high 300-low 400whp goals?

The customer was floored with the newfound response and power out of the system.

The 58/57 seems to be a pretty good match, though the 62/65 seems to make a little more grunt without adding much "lag". The 58/57 was beginning to run out of steam, which means its nearly perfectly sized for the stock motor NSX.

Mustang and Dyno Dynamics are both low-reading dynos. Alex recently ran his car on a Dyno Dynamics after I ran his car on the Mustang up here.

Alex's Mustang graph:

Alex's Dyno Dynamics graph:

The Dyno Dynamics recorded a little more torque.

Meth Injection helps to combat detonation by cooling the intake charge and therefore allowing the flamefront to be more controlled. Meth won't lower cylinder pressure itself, but it makes a great safety buffer for those wanting to run more timing, more boost, or a great combination of both, without running race fuel.

 

[gsrboy]