What has selling cars at MSRP got to do with you basically calling me a criminal. Virtually no cars get sold at MSRP. And putting a Fiat 500 on a pedestal, give me a break. Do the guards at your facility know you're missing?
Deposit contract to place an order?
- Thread starter GBL1
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You can buy Model S for MSRP. There is no added value when buying from the dealer. Quite the opposite actually. You have to deal with greedy dealer. The model that would never survive in open market with free trade. I'm not calling anyone anything. I just happen to have different view. Also having statistical classification at your disposal and whole bunch of data points one can easily see that average buyer off of the street have had unpleasant experience buying from dealership. There are exceptions for sure. But the model is inherently flawed.
And again 500E is fantastic city vehicle. Go drive it. I'll be back in 5(55?) years.
When I say no cars sell at MSRP, I mean we have to sell below that in order to be competitive. Go and pay full retail if that is what makes you happy. Too bad there weren't more like you out there. I'm afraid I won't be test driving a turd 500 anytime soon. Pretty much as bad as being seen in a Prius or a Smart car.
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When I sold my Gs430 and bought a Prius it was probably the best decision I ever made. I don't need a gas guzzler to drive to work. I worked for car dealers and they are crooks to both employees and the buyers that walk into the door. Looking forward to upgrading to a Tesla soon. Your comments go hand and hand with someone who owns a stealership.
Interesting comments about dealerships.
I'm sure there are many bad ones out there but there are also many great ones.
I've been taking my NSX to the same Acura dealer with their trained NSX tech for over 20 years.
Nothing but great service.
It's not practical to believe that volume car manufacturers like Toyota, Honda GM etc.can operate as direct sellers in the retail car sales world.
The only way they could do it is to own the retail outlets themselves, which would require huge capital outlays.
It's simply not going to happen.
Yes Tesla and other niche firms can do small volumes retail direct.
But when Tesla suspensions, brakes, steering wear out you will need a qualified technician to service them.
Who will be servicing them? Where will common parts be carried?
If independent firms are franchised by Tesla to do repairs/supply parts then those Tesla approved companies are really no different than a GM dealer.
If the point is being made that manufacturers should spend more time making sure their franchise outlets are better managed to a higher standard, I'd agree.
But making broad brush statements that retail car dealers are all "stealerships" is inappropriate.
I'm sure there are many bad ones out there but there are also many great ones.
I've been taking my NSX to the same Acura dealer with their trained NSX tech for over 20 years.
Nothing but great service.
It's not practical to believe that volume car manufacturers like Toyota, Honda GM etc.can operate as direct sellers in the retail car sales world.
The only way they could do it is to own the retail outlets themselves, which would require huge capital outlays.
It's simply not going to happen.
Yes Tesla and other niche firms can do small volumes retail direct.
But when Tesla suspensions, brakes, steering wear out you will need a qualified technician to service them.
Who will be servicing them? Where will common parts be carried?
If independent firms are franchised by Tesla to do repairs/supply parts then those Tesla approved companies are really no different than a GM dealer.
If the point is being made that manufacturers should spend more time making sure their franchise outlets are better managed to a higher standard, I'd agree.
But making broad brush statements that retail car dealers are all "stealerships" is inappropriate.
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Nice to hear from someone mature and reasonable JD. There are indeed many terrible car dealers raping every customer they can. My wife and I got into the business 23 years ago believing that if all of these businesses could survive and prosper, many selling at that time, crappy products, we should be able to make a living selling a great cars and treating people fairly. That mindset has worked well enough for us. Might we have a bigger bank account had we tried to always do the upsell, and seperate our customers from as much of their money as possible, every time they walked through the door? Maybe, if you were really slick at it and lived in a big city. When you live in a smaller community that sort of business plan doesn't work so well, and is not the way we ever wanted to operate.
Blacknot, I'm sorry I don't believe that driving a Prius makes you a savior of our planet. Until our power is generated in a cleaner manner you are just fooling yourself. Did you ever read about the energy needed to make hybrids and then to dispose of them at the end of their life? Or all the precious metals needed to make the batteries. I'm sorry that you have been burned so badly by so many dealers that you hate every one of them. I have better things to do than try and change your opinion.
Blacknot, I'm sorry I don't believe that driving a Prius makes you a savior of our planet. Until our power is generated in a cleaner manner you are just fooling yourself. Did you ever read about the energy needed to make hybrids and then to dispose of them at the end of their life? Or all the precious metals needed to make the batteries. I'm sorry that you have been burned so badly by so many dealers that you hate every one of them. I have better things to do than try and change your opinion.
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There are two issues about new cars and particularly new electric/hybrid cars that irk me.
First is that the electric/hybrid car is cleaner and so on.
Yes they are - where they are driven.
But as Solidol states where the majority of say, California's electricity is generated from fossil fuels the carbon is being generated in the rural areas.
So the carbon emissions are no less, they're just being generated somewhere other than the city where the cars are.
If electricity was being generated by hydroelectric, tidal, wind, nuclear then yes electric cars are great.
But if electricity is natural gas/coal/oil generated all you're doing is moving where the carbon is emitted.
Secondly everyone ignores the enormous carbon footprint generated in the manufacture of a new car, of any kind.
I've yet to see a comparison of the carbon saved by a higher gas mileage new car, to the carbon emitted during it's manufacture.
My 91 NSX added it's carbon to the atmosphere when it was made almost 25 years ago.
My 1992 Mercedes almost the same.
Both cars are not as clean carbon wise as 2016 models but what they add to the carbon mass today is miniscule compared to what a new version of these cars would be today.
Someday someone will point out with hard data the benefit carbon wise of keeping existing cars running longer.
And strangely enough we will need dealerships to keep these older cars running.
Speaking of dealers....my personal experience is long time repeat customers pay more for their cars than the one off buyer.
This fact was confirmed when I shopped recently at local competitor just to see if the offer I received was legit....some dealers consider regulars as slam dunks.
This fact was confirmed when I shopped recently at local competitor just to see if the offer I received was legit....some dealers consider regulars as slam dunks.
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I might have a more positive opinion of TESLA if they were off the Government teat...... I'm sure more companies could be successful with a nearly 5 Billion dollar gifting of taxpayers money.
You make it sound like long time customers are stupid, victims of a dealership and herd up like sheep to be gouged.
Sounds to me more like long time repeat customers choose to stay with their dealer of choice and may choose to pay more to do it.
No one is forced to spend more at any dealership, it's a free choice by the customer no?
Wow.....To me trust means a lot until it goes away.
Couple hundred no problem - $2K buys a lot of gas.
Good luck with your new NSX
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Not true. We will need more independent mechanics (enthusiasts) to do so. NSX ownership is great example of that.
Do you realize that most customers are uneducated in this regard? Most are not mechanically inclined. This helps greedy business to take advantage of them. No, nobody forces you to pay. Except you may have no choice (think about time spent running around to explore market and compare etc)
Stop living in the past guys, the era of fossil fuel is ending anyway.
Sorry if my comment sounded harsh.
Bad choice of words knowing your NSX and Porsche background.
I certainly agree about the trust in a dealership and an expectation that they will be competitive at new car time.
Yes a few hundred is not an issue but you're right a few thousand breaks the trust.
Bad dealer management decision cause in my mind when a long time customer leaves a dealer, a few more customers leave with him.
When that happens it is time to move on.
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Yes qualified independent shops play an important role but how many qualified NSX technicians are out there.
Not many.
And where do they get their OEM parts?
From a dealership.
I can't do an NSX TB/WP job so I would only take it to my factory trained NSX tech at my local dealer.
You will always read posts here and on Facebook about NSX owners who have taken their cars to independents and had trouble.
You can also have trouble at a dealer to be sure, but you at least have a company with substance to help sort out a problem originating in their shop.
As far as the fossil fuel era ending don't hold your breath waiting for it.
The world economy runs on oil and natural gas - heating oil, lubricating oil, jet fuel, plastics, a plethora of other necessities, and yes gasoline.
It will be a long, long, time before all of the current products made from oil can be replaced by renewable materials.
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Couple the fact the U.S. is out producing every other country in oil production and the increased efficiency of current automobiles I don't see electric being economically viable for the foreseeable future.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-biggest-oil-producer-after-overtaking-saudi
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-biggest-oil-producer-after-overtaking-saudi
What's not widely known is Canada now supplies about 38% of US oil imports.
Combined with US domestic production North America is far less dependent on the Middle East and other regions.
Tesla's "no dealer" model is already becoming unsustainable as the number of cars they sell continues to increase. Some Tesla owners are currently reporting wait times of 2 to 3 months for service appointments to fix relative minor issues. And in Norway the current wait times are nearly 6 months! See here....
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/57553-Tesla-doesn-t-want-to-service-my-Model-S
Tesla's supercharger model is likely unsustainable too. There are already occasional complaints of owners having to wait in line for a charge. If Tesla is successful at meeting their sales targets, their supercharger infrastructure will soon become inadequate and I don't see the company having the capital to fully build out what would actually be required.
But don't tell that to the starry eyed Tesla owners who love Elon with a near cult-like devotion. Many of them (mostly idealistic Boomers) like to tell us how their road trip was "powered by the sun" or that they're "experiencing the future today". It's a truly bizarre combination of demonizing oil combined with viewing technology as mankind's savior. For a good laugh I suggest watching nearly any of Tesla's shareholder meetings and check out the crazies in the audience that line up to ask Elon questions.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/57553-Tesla-doesn-t-want-to-service-my-Model-S
Tesla's supercharger model is likely unsustainable too. There are already occasional complaints of owners having to wait in line for a charge. If Tesla is successful at meeting their sales targets, their supercharger infrastructure will soon become inadequate and I don't see the company having the capital to fully build out what would actually be required.
But don't tell that to the starry eyed Tesla owners who love Elon with a near cult-like devotion. Many of them (mostly idealistic Boomers) like to tell us how their road trip was "powered by the sun" or that they're "experiencing the future today". It's a truly bizarre combination of demonizing oil combined with viewing technology as mankind's savior. For a good laugh I suggest watching nearly any of Tesla's shareholder meetings and check out the crazies in the audience that line up to ask Elon questions.
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The reason that Tesla and Norway are such a good fit is that Norway, despite being a major oil and gas producer, is not reliant on fossil fuels for its own use. It has invested the royalties from oil & gas production over the past 45+ years to provide a 100% renewable energy model for the country, plus a huge fund for future governments to spend on infrastructure, including a full network of electric car charging stations, to eventually replace gas stations in the entire country, should this be the way forward.
I am in the market for a family hauler and it sucks big time. Part is frustration that there is not a fun family car in my price range. Part is having to visit dealers.I believe that dealers are a prehistoric being and 10 major centralized lots in the US with online pricing would work just fine. There's plenty of shops that can do that complicated maintenance (rotating tires, using crappy oil, checking battery terminals) that can retain the OEM factory warranty.If I could buy my car on Amazon or off of slickdeals.net I would. I know Volvo has taken that direction.On the Tesla subject, I second the fact that there's a lot of plastic on the car that does not come from recycled sources. Or the leather, that comes from cows, that emit 15% of co2 with their farts... I do love the Tesla, fantastic performance and fun car to drive but don't come talking about the carbon footprint.They put 2 electric motors on the NSX for immediate power response, not to save trees!
It makes sense for one model.
But what if you're considering whether you want a new sedan or the new SUV?
Or another new model yet to come out?
Do you want to sit in each one?
How do you do that?
And if your older Tesla needs servicing?
Where do you take it.
An independent shop or a Tesla factory certified shop?
If you want the factory certified shop (and most owners will) then what's the difference between a franchised Tesla service shop and a franchised Acura service shop?
None that I can see.
And while you're dropping your older Tesla sedan off at a factory certified Tesla shop for maintenance it might be handy to look at the new Tesla SUV or another new model while you're there no?
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You go to manufacturer's show room. It doesn't have to be dealer. It doesn't have to be 3rd party to handle this simple thing. It can and must be manufacture's effort. This way to have standard and high level of service quality. Also it may be shocking to you to find out that over last few years numbers of car ordered online jumped a lot. No need to bring service into this equation again and again. I never argued this won't be a problem when dealerships go away. Servicing is needed (granted much much less with electric powertrain) but that's all that dealer should do. Not sell cars. Or sell at the same price you can buy online directly from the manufacturer.
You can take your tesla to either factory certified shop or independent shop. I don't see how this is different from what you have with dinosaurs most of us use right now. Or with most of the product human use for a long time to be needed maintenance or repair. Why cars should be different? Also have you ever thought about how extremely complex internal combustion engines are comparing to electric motors? Don't tell me you believe engineers are that stupid not to dismiss this old tech in a heartbeat. Oh wait we can't do this because nobody thinks about global impact (global on the scale of state/nation/continent/planet); oil companies just like dealerships - both like easy profit.
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MSRP and beyond (Price gouging)And here is insult to the injury (excessive pricing)
Thank you for your response, finally addressing the purchase price, although not at MSRP. I assumed (hopefully correctly) that on my original order request, and deposit made, that our transaction will be MSRP, and not a “market adjustment” price.
I assume than when a person orders a new car from you, it would be at MSRP, or slightly discounted. If your dealership has a different policy, kindly give me specific examples of your “price adjustments.”
Although I am an attorney, I would not like to exercise my legal rights to obtain a MSRP transaction.
Kindly review this email, and let me have hopefully a favorable response as to MSRP.
Bruce E. Winter, ESQ
Subject: Re: Acura NSX. Bruce winter#1
Bruce you are the number 1 custom for the right to purchase an NSX. The price you will be able to purchase the NSX will be dictated by the market. We will be pricing the vehicle based on the market and the other Acura dealers.
Thank you for your response, finally addressing the purchase price, although not at MSRP. I assumed (hopefully correctly) that on my original order request, and deposit made, that our transaction will be MSRP, and not a “market adjustment” price.
I assume than when a person orders a new car from you, it would be at MSRP, or slightly discounted. If your dealership has a different policy, kindly give me specific examples of your “price adjustments.”
Although I am an attorney, I would not like to exercise my legal rights to obtain a MSRP transaction.
Kindly review this email, and let me have hopefully a favorable response as to MSRP.
Bruce E. Winter, ESQ
Subject: Re: Acura NSX. Bruce winter#1
Bruce you are the number 1 custom for the right to purchase an NSX. The price you will be able to purchase the NSX will be dictated by the market. We will be pricing the vehicle based on the market and the other Acura dealers.
You better start saving your shekels for the new NSX.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-acura-nsx-priced-at-157800-tops-out-at-207500/
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-acura-nsx-priced-at-157800-tops-out-at-207500/
While complexity is the enemy of reliability, companies like Honda have perfected the internal combustion engine to such a huge degree that the issue is nearly irrelevant. Consider that two thirds of the earliest Tesla drive trains will fail within 60,000 miles, making Tesla's electric engine the least reliable engine in the marketplace....
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ns-to-fail-in-60000-miles-owner-data-suggests
In my experience the engines on most Honda products are the most reliable component of the car. On my 25 year old NSX the only major failures have been the A/C system, brakes, and various electronic modules. Of these the electronic failures have been by far the most common and the engine itself has never had a problem requiring service. The Tesla Model S has all these same systems in it, plus even more electronics! Anyone who believes that a Tesla will be more reliable over the long term than a top tier internal combustion engine maker is fooling themselves.
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Let me see.....
It's imperative that you buy the car directly from Tesla in order to ensure the best buying experience (an experience that lasts no more than a few hours). But after you buy the car it's ok to go to a non-Tesla owned facility to have it repaired (an experience that could go on for many years).
What exactly is the customer gaining? You're asking the customer to deal with two different businesses (or locations) instead of one, the lack of inventory doesn't allow for instant gratification, and you're eliminating the ability to negotiate down the price. Long term I question the ability of Tesla to continue with this model. It only works if you're selling an expensive, unique, and highly coveted item. With the major Germany luxury brands investing in this area how much longer will Tesla's perceived advantage last?
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