http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/28/rumormill-lexus-lf-a-stillborn/
I'll place a nice sum that Honda follows the lead (as they always do).
I'll place a nice sum that Honda follows the lead (as they always do).
Curtains for the LF-A; Acura supercar next?
- Thread starter MoreRPMs
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Former Nissan racer, NSX development driver and Nurburgring legend Motoharu "Gan-san" Kurosawa reckons, "Toyota are good at making money, but they're no good at making sports cars."
Ouch! :tongue:
Ouch! :tongue:
How about this one, Toyota realized NSX like business from Japan will NOT work at the price they like to sell it at. Considering the fact that rumor of the ASC will be priced significant less than the LF/A with similar performance.
The writing has been on the wall for some time. Although the Lexus flagship graduated from "concept" to "prototype" when it campaigned in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring, Toyota has refused to even hint at a production date for the V10 supercar. Then Toyota declined to plonk an LF-A silhouette on their Super GT racer, electing to continue with the doomed SC 430 jello mold.
Then news broke that production cars would cost a whopping $225,000, but the LF-A still wouldn't turn a profit. Needless to say, Toyota doesn't like things that are not profitable.
Finally, members of the testing and development crew who have been putting the car though its paces in Germany, as well as test drivers from rival Honda and Nissan crews, have told Autoblog that the LF-A is not destined for the showroom, and will remain only a development platform.
No reasons were given, but we can think of a couple. How many people are willing to part with nigh on a quarter of a million bucks for a Toyota/Lexus? Also, the world's most prolific car maker may not be willing to join the current Nurburgring pissing contest unless it is 100% sure that they can beat the Viper, ZR-1 and perhaps more importantly, the GT-R and upcoming NSX replacement.
Actually, one 'Ring test driver didn't mind going on the record with his opinion. Former Nissan racer, NSX development driver and Nurburgring legend Motoharu "Gan-san" Kurosawa reckons, "Toyota are good at making money, but they're no good at making sports cars."
The writing has been on the wall for some time. Although the Lexus flagship graduated from "concept" to "prototype" when it campaigned in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring, Toyota has refused to even hint at a production date for the V10 supercar. Then Toyota declined to plonk an LF-A silhouette on their Super GT racer, electing to continue with the doomed SC 430 jello mold.
Then news broke that production cars would cost a whopping $225,000, but the LF-A still wouldn't turn a profit. Needless to say, Toyota doesn't like things that are not profitable.
Finally, members of the testing and development crew who have been putting the car though its paces in Germany, as well as test drivers from rival Honda and Nissan crews, have told Autoblog that the LF-A is not destined for the showroom, and will remain only a development platform.
No reasons were given, but we can think of a couple. How many people are willing to part with nigh on a quarter of a million bucks for a Toyota/Lexus? Also, the world's most prolific car maker may not be willing to join the current Nurburgring pissing contest unless it is 100% sure that they can beat the Viper, ZR-1 and perhaps more importantly, the GT-R and upcoming NSX replacement.
Actually, one 'Ring test driver didn't mind going on the record with his opinion. Former Nissan racer, NSX development driver and Nurburgring legend Motoharu "Gan-san" Kurosawa reckons, "Toyota are good at making money, but they're no good at making sports cars."
i hope this doesnt give Honda an excuse to cop out. I'm for one loving this p***ing contest at the nurb.ring... competition is good.
That is a sweet shape, to bad is under this controversy ...
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On the good side, if they can the new Honda/Acura car. The NSX just becomes that much more special. Maybe they will go back to the V-6 mid engine layout. GT-R sized engine and power, mid engine layout. I can dream....:redface:
Ewwww sucks to be a toyo fan. Can't turn a profit at $225k
Ewwww sucks to be a toyo fan. Can't turn a profit at $225k
I think what they were saying is that in no way were they gonna be able to make enough sales to make a profit.
Perhaps the GT-R will be king of the new Japanese super cars for longer than we think [or would like].
I'm willing to put money down to say the car is going to be built.
They have already gone this far and the car seems to be almost production ready, the bulk of the money has been spend. It is just matter of finding out the right pricing.
They have already gone this far and the car seems to be almost production ready, the bulk of the money has been spend. It is just matter of finding out the right pricing.
And I'll place a tidier sum on the fact that CEO's of major corporations don't like to look stupid.
Fukui-san has been going around for over a year talking about details of their new halo car. I doubt he gives one rat dropping what Lexus does with their supercar. Honda's a company that didn't care about the profitability of the NSX and ESPECIALLY the company it kept (or didn't) from the other Japanese manufacturers.
Cheers,
John
How much?
Not a good bet bro as remember Toyota is losing money hand over fist Honda hasn't. Has Honda posted any losses this year? I'm not sure but I don't think so. So far this year Honda has been the only profitable Automaker so as Toyota has been losing their shirt and looking for ways to cut costs and return to profitability this would make sense. Not so for Honda. High fuel prices will continue and Honda has what three more low cost hybrids coming music to Americans ears. All those Accord and Civic sales are powering this new monster vs GM trucks powering the ZR1 , Z06 and CTSV's. Look for those vehicles to go away quickly.
You are 100% right. Honda and Hynundai were the only profitable manufacturers last quarter. Honda went up 13%. We charge sticker and above on civics fits and most accords and they're selling more than ever! This is a great time to be working for Honda.
Cant wait untill this new halo car comes out cuz the owner lets me drive all his cars ;-)
BTW i think the whole LF-A cancellation thing is a ploy to ake honda and nissan rest on their laurels. I dont think they would cancel that car after it came this far. They've already spent millions of dollars on R&D and testing and i think they would at least want to recoup some if not all of it.
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I beg to differ. The 'one-offs' we are seeing have no doubt been built entirely by hand. Tooling for molds is probably the biggest expense, in order to make runs of thousands of cars.
It's easy to make a one-off with an unlimited budget, relatively speaking. Imagine you had a few million dollars to spend on a single custom made car. But being able to replicate it for 1/10th or 1/20th of the price is the hard part, and that is the point where they suddenly have to commit to an investment of hundreds of millions of dollars.
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How about a curve ball to you. This Lexus will most likely to be mostly build by hand like the NSX. Yes, you will have tooling cost, but the method may not be as complicated as you think? They don't need to have a massive investment is molding cost so they can built 300k per year like the Camery. In this case, the development cost is much greater than the tooling. Imagine this, if they spend half as much money as they have with Toyota's F1 2008 budget, you are talking about 150 plus million. The budget allocation will be next to NOTHING for Toyota.
Just look at Porsche GT and McLaran SLR vision, those cars are almost entirely built by hand and the production number is extremely small.
Care to put a wager on this one?
There is significant difference between Toyota's first attempt at a super car and HONDA's refocusing on something they did almost two decades ago and did it in a superlative manner.
Toyota is categorically NOT a company known for making driver's cars [the supra had a gem of an engine but the car was essentially a drag king]. The LF-A would have been their first serious attempt at making a car that would have competed with the world's elite. Toyota is a money making machine that makes reliable people haulers. Nothing wrong with that, just a totally different culture.
HONDA's gene pool has driving fun and performance at its heart. Don't forget that S. Honda was a race enthusiast first and foremost. That they were able to dominate Eurpoean F1 in the 1990s and to showcase their prowess built the NewSportscareXperimental with such an elevated level of handling and balanced performance almost two decades ago gives a hint of what HONDA is capable of doing.
The good news is that HONDA are back in the game they play so well. The NSX replacement has nothing to do with what Toyota san decides to do. The NSX had nothing to do with anything that Toyota or any other Japanese automaker was doing.
HONDA pride needs no prodding from anyone. HONDA were lost for a while and they are now back. That is all there is to it.:biggrin:
How stupid would they look when they bring this Accord look-alike to market with a pricetag in the six figures (let's face it, 500+ hp V10 is not going to sticker in the $70s or 80s) and with that, less than 100 buyers per year in the N.A. market?
The NSX was/is the only exception to Honda not following the competition. Take a look at how long it took for their roadster to debut (over 10 years after the Miata's). How long after all the competition had SUVs (remember, they were rebadging Isuzu's) did it take to finally bring out their own? And where in the hell is their first V8???
Another point - why is this "engine company" showcasing only V6s in their luxury cars, and ones with single OHCs, no less? So, all of a sudden, we go from decades of underpowered small motors to a big jump into 5 liter 10 cylinders - to accomplish what?
Nixing the mid-engine sportscar in favor of a 2 ton, front engine GT pig accomplishes nothing but alienating your existing (and future) enthusiast base. They'll realize that, no doubt.
Uh how big could that base have been since the NSX was a huge sales disappointment. Honda will bring in a whole lot of NSX and S2K buyers that can afford this car plus many more. People b*tch more about their cars being slow more than they do engine position. If this car performs and beats ZR1s and GTRs , Spec V version too , 599s , F430s , 911 TT and GT2's and 3's , Vipers , Carrera GTs you think it won't sale and will alienate Honda fans who've been waiting for a car like that for years.
I think maybe you and like five other guys plus dudes that payed for all the cars mentioned above will be the only "haters":biggrin:
Notice how so many dissenters have disappeared not that the car is being tested and ring times are posted. Numbers speak volumes. Plus for some reason these new Acuras cars look much better in person than in pictures.
This $175,000+ Honda prototype is competing against lap times of a 4 seater Nissan and a Corvette, both of which are in showrooms today and sell for under $70,000.
Problem is, Honda can't realistically beat those other cars with a production ready car even thought they've been "working on it" since 2001.
Does anyone actually think this car will be in the 2010 lineup? 2011? 2012?
I'm not holding my breath...
Build by hand is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that a $10 part often takes a $5,000-$10,000 mold to mass produce. Multiply that by the 10,000+ parts it takes to make a modern car, and they can't just make a run of a few hundred cars (or even few thousand) and expect to get anywhere near the break even point.
With the expected performance level of this car, it's not like you're going to be able to dip into the civic/accord parts bin very much.
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