Camber/Toe/etc. settings for track use?

[TURBO2GO]

Yes Billy, I have to say that you are a gem here and I for one at least really appreciate your being here and all your helpful posts. Let me officially thank you for all of them.

 

[asylum]

Tire wear will give you the right camber to use. But as you don't want to wait that long before knowing what to do, you can follow the advise given here.

Concerning toe, I would always advise - 1 mm front (not to much to be stable when braking, but enough for curve entry) and + 3 mm rear each side as "all-round" settings. You can decrease rear toe to + 2 mm on an only street driven car. But if you plan to go on the track, + 3 mm seems to be safer.

Concerning camber, it is really tire dependant (grip, sidewalls, ...). But as "all round" settings on the track, I would advise :

Street tires :
F : -1.0° to -1.5°
R : -1.5°

R-tires :
F : -2.0° to -2.5°
R : -2.0° to -2.5°

Full slicks :
F : -3.0° to -3.5°
R : -3.0°

 

[stuntman]

I think we all benefit from your input as you are immersed and surrounded by people who want to go fast and win for a living..plus as I have already mentioned you have a desire to know as much as you can about your craft.For us regular weakend shmos who want to advance in no particular order: instruction/coaching, some form of reliable lap timing device,tire pressure and pyrometer readings as hot as possible...with those tools and practice speed will come.

Yes Billy, I have to say that you are a gem here and I for one at least really appreciate your being here and all your helpful posts. Let me officially thank you for all of them.

Thanks guys

 

[HIJACKER]

Wow, was my alignment ever screwed up. After having that fixed and installing the new SOS Sport clutch, it feels like a completely new car! OMG! I can't get over how bad the toe was.

Here are the before/after settings:

 

[ryneen]

Yes Billy, I have to say that you are a gem here and I for one at least really appreciate your being here and all your helpful posts. Let me officially thank you for all of them.

Billy truly is a blessing and wealth of advice to us novices. He has helped my skills tremendously. My advice to anyone wanting to go a lot faster (and safer), is to spend their money on hiring Billy as your coach or similar professional. I know that I am a lot quicker with a stock motor and his coaching than I would be with a supercharger, aero and no coaching. I just wish he still lived in California.

 

[Coz]

Billy,
How would these alignment spec's change for running larger tires ?
R Compounds and Hoosiers ?
In 265x18 and 305x18 ?

Performance/track focused: (at the slight sacrifice of street tire wear)

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN

 

[stuntman]

Billy,
How would these alignment spec's change for running larger tires ?
R Compounds and Hoosiers ?
In 265x18 and 305x18 ?

Learn how to quote first :tongue:

They wouldn't change. Run the top specs.

 

[Coz]

LOL..working on it...
As in beginners, most people (your car ) or of Performance ?

For beginners:

Camber:
Front: -1.0* EDIT: -0.5* would probably be better for beginners with -1.5* rear camber
Rear: -1.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 4-5mm IN

For most people (settings on my personal car):

Camber:
Front: -1.5* (which is probably close to the max you can get given stock constraints)
Rear: -2.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 2-3mm IN


Performance/track focused: (at the slight sacrifice of street tire wear)

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN

Learn how to quote first :tongue:

They wouldn't change. Run the top specs.

 

[stuntman]

What did I have you set them at before and how did it handle?

LOL..working on it...
As in beginners, most people (your car ) or of Performance ?




For beginners:

Camber:
Front: -1.0* EDIT: -0.5* would probably be better for beginners with -1.5* rear camber
Rear: -1.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 4-5mm IN

For most people (settings on my personal car):

Camber:
Front: -1.5* (which is probably close to the max you can get given stock constraints)
Rear: -2.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 2-3mm IN


Performance/track focused: (at the slight sacrifice of street tire wear)

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN

 

[Coz]

With the current WB, we've never discussed it.

We were suppose to get together, but you moved before we had a chance.

With the stock bodied Green car, you had me set it at:
(on 235x40x17 and 285x35x18)

Camber
Front: -1.5
Rear: -2.4

Toe
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear 2mm IN

You drove it on the track and liked the set up.

With the WB now. Nick and I set the alignment at:
On 255x35x18 and 305x35x18

Camber
Front: -2.0
Rear: -2.0 (Reduced because of tire size)

Toe
Front: 1.8 OUT
Rear: 1.9 IN

Handling: Turns in well, neutral mid turn, tends to get loose out of turns, putting 550 to the wheels and have to wait to throttle and feels like I'm parking it in the turns.
Running Toyo R-888's

I could use more out of turns grip for sure.
Tire pressure's 36 to 38 hot.
Probably more negative rear camber is needed.....?

What did I have you set them at before and how did it handle?

 

[docjohn]

Coz you may need a thicker front bar, realtime used to have a very stiff front bar and no rear bar on the supercharged #42.

 

[Coz]

John,
Running a 1.125 OD bar on the front and a Zanardi bar on the rear now.
They came off the Silver FXMD 500 car.
Front bar set towards the stiffer side of adjustment, the rear Zanardi bar adjustment is fixed.

Coz you may need a thicker front bar, realtime used to have a very stiff front bar and no rear bar on the supercharged #42.

 

[stuntman]

With the current WB, we've never discussed it.

We were suppose to get together, but you moved before we had a chance.

With the stock bodied Green car, you had me set it at:
(on 235x40x17 and 285x35x18)

Camber
Front: -1.5
Rear: -2.4

Toe
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear 2mm IN

You drove it on the track and liked the set up.

With the WB now. Nick and I set the alignment at:
On 255x35x18 and 305x35x18

Camber
Front: -2.0
Rear: -2.0 (Reduced because of tire size)

Toe
Front: 1.8 OUT
Rear: 1.9 IN

Handling: Turns in well, neutral mid turn, tends to get loose out of turns, putting 550 to the wheels and have to wait to throttle and feels like I'm parking it in the turns.
Running Toyo R-888's

I could use more out of turns grip for sure.
Tire pressure's 36 to 38 hot.
Probably more negative rear camber is needed.....?

Invest in a tire pyrometer. Try to get -2.5* out of the rear. What spring rates?

Try 3mm toe IN at the REAR (Total).

Find a set of NT01s that will fit. Even if they are smaller. It'll be a good move.

 

[Coz]

Just got one, plan on using it next time out and starting a log.

I know for sure we can get -2.4, maybe -2.5 on the rear, will get that done.

Ok on the toe In. Will get that done as well. 1.5 each side, 3.0 total.

Springs rates currently are:
Front: 10K front, 560lbs
Rear: 8.7K, 487 lbs

Working on a couple of sponsorship situations shock wise and was considering upping my spring rates as well.
Your thoughts ?

I am really trying to figure out a way to run the NT-01's.
Problem is, all they make that will fit my current wheels is 245x40x18 and 275x40x18 or a 275x35x18. Pretty small for my WB.

The next size up, which would really be my preference would be 275x35 and 315x30x18 and adjust the height and rake.

Problem I will have with the 275x35 fronts is turning clearance on the street. 255x35, no problems, 265x35, a little, not sure about 275x40, haven't tried them yet.

I know you guys ran bigger on the Cricket car, but the front wheel wells were gutted out.

Didn't quite want to go that far....just yet ....but might have too anyway.

Thanks Billy, you know how much I appreciate your advice.

Invest in a tire pyrometer. Try to get -2.5* out of the rear. What spring rates?

Try 3mm toe IN at the REAR (Total).

Find a set of NT01s that will fit. Even if they are smaller. It'll be a good move.

 

[sparky]

I remain curious on the recommended toe settings for the NSX (6mm toe in for the rear and -3.5mm toe out front). I've read numerous explanations but so far not a satisfactory story. Why are they so radical/unusual compared to almost all other cars?

Further, when moving from street to track one aspect to consider normally is simple straight line rolling resistance caused by toe. 6mm toe must cause significant resistance = slower, so why don't NSX trackers reduce this to say 2 or even 1mm? What happens if you do and why? If the main reason for 6mm rear is the compliance of the stock suspension mounts, then I would expect cars that have replaced / stiffened the suspension mounts and tie rod ends would want to run much less toe??

TIA

 

[Onsoku]

Good question; hope you get an answer!

 

[stuntman]

Just got one, plan on using it next time out and starting a log.

I know for sure we can get -2.4, maybe -2.5 on the rear, will get that done.

Ok on the toe In. Will get that done as well. 1.5 each side, 3.0 total.

Springs rates currently are:
Front: 10K front, 560lbs
Rear: 8.7K, 487 lbs

Working on a couple of sponsorship situations shock wise and was considering upping my spring rates as well.
Your thoughts ?

I am really trying to figure out a way to run the NT-01's.
Problem is, all they make that will fit my current wheels is 245x40x18 and 275x40x18 or a 275x35x18. Pretty small for my WB.

The next size up, which would really be my preference would be 275x35 and 315x30x18 and adjust the height and rake.

Problem I will have with the 275x35 fronts is turning clearance on the street. 255x35, no problems, 265x35, a little, not sure about 275x40, haven't tried them yet.

I know you guys ran bigger on the Cricket car, but the front wheel wells were gutted out.

Didn't quite want to go that far....just yet ....but might have too anyway.

Thanks Billy, you know how much I appreciate your advice.

How wide are your wheels F&R?

 

[Coz]

How wide are your wheels F&R?

ENKEI FP01
9.5 front and 10.0 rears

Been a few changes since we talked/texted

Picked up ENKEI as a sponsor.
Street Tires: R-888’s (and still track for now)
265x35x18 and 315x30x18
Diameter’s: 265=25.4 & 315=25.5

Waiting for the next set of FP01’s from ENKEI and going to run Hoosier R6’s in 275x35 and 315x35 for track use only.
Diameter’s: 275x35=25.5 & 315x30=25.6

These Hoosier are very close to the spec’s of the R-888’s which the should also clear the front fender wells without losing to much steering radius, and what I do lose won't matter for track use.

If I figured this out correctly, the change in the diameter from R-888’s to Hoosiers when I change the wheels for track use shouldn’t change my alignment, height or corner balance enough to worry about and have to reset everything suspension wise from street to track.

I also changed the alignment as you suggested to in between Personal and Performance (since I still drive it on the street) and it made a big difference on the track. Great turn in but with very little mid corner push (more of a 4 wheel drift now) and a lot less exit push.

Track times are improving greatly.

Still working with CT Engineering on putting together different shocks and spring rates. Going to increase the spring rates for sure. We are discussing a set of CT Pro’s and 3 different sets of springs rates to try out. What I have now and 2 individual steps/sets up in stiffness.

Do you see anything wrong with this plan ?
Let me know……please.

You going to be at SEMA ?
The NSX will be there in the featured car area sponsored by Canton Racing Products, ENKEI Wheels and Toyo Tires.

 

[g3driver]

COZ --- congrats on the ENKEI sponsor. Sorry I missed you guys at chuckwalla and speedway. I will be at buttonwillow in apr for my first NASA HPDE even. very excited.

Erik
http://www.outrageousracing.com

 

[Coz]

Thanks Erik....
We will be out at Chuckwalla again in December...Stop by and say hello if you can.
Have fun at Buttonwillow, let us know how it goes !

COZ --- congrats on the ENKEI sponsor. Sorry I missed you guys at chuckwalla and speedway. I will be at buttonwillow in apr for my first NASA HPDE even. very excited.

Erik
http://www.outrageousracing.com

 

[f1racr]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, it has been very helpful.

Hoping my question isn't too far off the original thread, but I'm going to be running Hoosier R6's in 245x30x18 and 295x35x18 and haven't run our car yet, but we will use Billy's track settings as our base, but just wondered if anyone out there has advice related to tire pressures for the Hoosiers or anything alignment related that is Hoosier specific to save us any headaches ??

Thanks again to all that have contributed.

 

[jaffaz32]

For beginners:

Camber:
Front: -1.0* EDIT: -0.5* would probably be better for beginners with -1.5* rear camber
Rear: -1.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 4-5mm IN



For most people (settings on my personal car):

Camber:
Front: -1.5* (which is probably close to the max you can get given stock constraints)
Rear: -2.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 2-3mm IN


Performance/track focused: (at the slight sacrifice of street tire wear)

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN


Tire Pressure:

COLD:
Front:32psi
Rear: 32psi

HOT:
Front: 35-40psi (35psi for max front grip, 40psi if the car oversteers too much to induce understeer)
Rear: 36psi (for max grip).


*Last weekend before my trip to Vegas/Spring Mountain - I set my tire pressures on my Bridgestone RE01R tires for street use at 36psi all around, I forgot to lower them and on track they were great for a few laps but then the car got VERY loose/oversteering. When I came in the fronts were at 40psi and the rears were at 43-45psi! As street/R-comps get above 40psi, they lose a lot of grip. I suggest keeping them ~36-38psi.



EDIT: *******Keep in mind these are general, ballpark settings. The "perfect" setting will depend on a variety of variables from tire size, compound, wheel size/offset, suspension, spring rates, swaybars, weight, weight distribution, power, downforce, etc.. In short, a TIRE PYROMETER (Probe Type) is a great investment along with a good tire pressure gauge to further dial in your setup. I dislike umbrella statements but the above should be a decent rough guideline, but will vary depending on your setup.

Exact info i was looking for.

I have pretty much aftermarket everything in terms of suspension except from actual coilovers!

I only do about 4 track days a year, i often do allot of straight line pulls, more frequently than track. How would these settings work if you do allot of drag or hard street driving? Still a good setup for that kept in mind?

And do i go for Beginners or the for most people? i've done about 3 track days to date (still learning), been driving powerful cars for many years.

Is there a guide any where how do actually apply these settings?

And what are the actual factory settings laid out as above, as i've seen factory figures quoted but their not easy to read. and have tolerances etc. just curious to see factory to compare set up figures.

 

[jaffaz32]

Exact info i was looking for.

I have pretty much aftermarket everything in terms of suspension except from actual coilovers!

I only do about 4 track days a year, i often do allot of straight line pulls, more frequently than track. How would these settings work if you do allot of drag or hard street driving? Still a good setup for that kept in mind?

And do i go for Beginners or the for most people? i've done about 3 track days to date (still learning), been driving powerful cars for many years.

Is there a guide any where how do actually apply these settings?

And what are the actual factory settings laid out as above, as i've seen factory figures quoted but their not easy to read. and have tolerances etc. just curious to see factory to compare set up figures.

Anyone?

 

[stuntman]

"For Beginners" is pretty close to factory settings. Negative rear camber is going to hurt straight-line acceleration in drag racing. For your needs I would suggest the beginer settings because it'll be better for drag racing and won't hurt you much as you are new to tracking your car.\


0.02

 

[jaffaz32]

I've been looking for this post high and low.

Billy's information is exactly what i need and assume many others would find very useful.

do you think it would be a good idea to move to the Suspension section? Mods?