Camber in mm or inches?

[Hrant]

Specifically, with 235/40/17 RA1 tire, my fronts are rubbing the fender liner under compression at the track. I have already raised the suspension about 0.25" but am looking for other solutions than keep raising the car. Suspension is Comptech Pro already.

If I increase the camber by -1 (doing only the top bushing), how many mm will I be pulling the wheel inside the fender?

I know tire selection may also help - but unless I find a suitable 215/40/17 or 225/40/17, I suspect the problem will continue to be present. My RA1 still have some good tread on them.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Same problem with the Toyo R888s 235/40/17. I have to run my car higher than I like to avoid rubbing. I am maxed out on camber on the fronts -1.6

The R888s also come in 205/40/17 which is 7.8" vs 9.2" width of the 235s and the diameter 23.5 vs 24.6.

 

[stuntman]

Take out the fender liner for track use.

What spring rates do you run?

 

[Hrant]

The fender liner is not the issue - but the consequence. The rubbing occurs at the edge of the fender where the liner is tapped into the fender tongue.

Front spring is 1000 and my car does dual duty both as street/weekend HPDE use ;-)

 

[nsxnut]

Specifically, with 235/40/17 RA1 tire, my fronts are rubbing the fender liner under compression at the track. I have already raised the suspension about 0.25" but am looking for other solutions than keep raising the car. Suspension is Comptech Pro already.

If I increase the camber by -1 (doing only the top bushing), how many mm will I be pulling the wheel inside the fender?

I know tire selection may also help - but unless I find a suitable 215/40/17 or 225/40/17, I suspect the problem will continue to be present. My RA1 still have some good tread on them.

The RA1's are tall. Hoosiers are shorter.
Stiffer Springs. Less compression.

I have the camber bushings. With Hoosiers and the stiffer springs NO rubbing.
I still have the fender liners installed.

 

[Hrant]

The RA1's are tall. Hoosiers are shorter.
Stiffer Springs. Less compression.

I have the camber bushings. With Hoosiers and the stiffer springs NO rubbing.
I still have the fender liners installed.

Don, remind me again, what size Hoosiers are your running, and what size Michelin cup were you running? And no thanks for the 1200 spring rates - I am not interested in passing any more kidney stones LOL!

I am told by the alignment shop that does most of the NSXs here that the camber kit for the top only will pull between 1/8" to 1/4" - this with tire selection "may" solve the problem.

 

[docjohn]

Besides the obvious stated above,What wheels? You could theoreticly get a higher offset wheel that might pull the tire edge inward on full compression.Does your car rub on the street over dips /bumps or just at the track.Are we talking most every turn or only in 1-2 spots.Under braking or just on turning in?

 

[Hrant]

Besides the obvious stated above,What wheels? You could theoreticly get a higher offset wheel that might pull the tire edge inward on full compression.Does your car rub on the street over dips /bumps or just at the track.Are we talking most every turn or only in 1-2 spots.Under braking or just on turning in?

Good questions John.

Wheels are C28N High pad. I doubt the wheels make that much difference if you are running 235/40/17 in the fronts but they might.

Street driving I don't use the RA1.

Only one or two turns at each track; the turns are off camber though and this happens when tracking out on load - like the bottom of the cork screw at Laguna Seca, or turn 1 at Infineon before the dip. Also turns 3 and 5b at THill.

 

[nsxnut]

Don, remind me again, what size Hoosiers are your running, and what size Michelin cup were you running? And no thanks for the 1200 spring rates - I am not interested in passing any more kidney stones LOL!

I am told by the alignment shop that does most of the NSXs here that the camber kit for the top only will pull between 1/8" to 1/4" - this with tire selection "may" solve the problem.

Camber is measured in degrees not mm or inches.

P225/40ZR-17 Hoosier R6 Front
P275/35ZR-18 Hoosier R6 Rear

245/40ZR-17 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
285/30ZR-18 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

I Like the Hoosiers I have 5 days on the fronts and they still look good.

Sport cups hold up but eventually get heat cycled to death. It is not obvious when they are gone.
I can't tell by looking at them. They still had tread left.
I got about ~8 days before they started to go.

The Hoosier have MORE GRIP than the Michelin's.
According to the Guy at Hoosier west don't bother with heat cycling.
The price of Hoosier is almost the same as the Michelin's

Here is another advantage of the Hoosier.
I run the Hoosier's and have two sets...
Steve runs the Hoosier's and has two sets...
Armondo (sp?) run's the Hoosier's as well.
If you have a flat who has a spare Michelin...? Hint!

 

[stuntman]

The fender liner is not the issue - but the consequence. The rubbing occurs at the edge of the fender where the liner is tapped into the fender tongue.

Front spring is 1000 and my car does dual duty both as street/weekend HPDE use ;-)

Stiffer springs aren't the answer.

1000/800 -springrates f/r?

With 1000's in the front, the suspension already dosn't move a whole lot. I have external onboard video aiming at the front tire with 1000s in the front, and the suspension already dosn't move a whole lot.

Are you rubbing the metal fender or the plastic liner? If it's the liner, remove it.

0.02

 

[docjohn]

Hrant ,if all else fails then I agree that removal of the plastic liner will help,just don't do much hi speed street cruising without the liner.If this rubbing is new or becoming more prominent then I would also include weakening shocks in the differential diagnosis.

 

[stuntman]

Hrant ,if all else fails then I agree that removal of the plastic liner will help,just don't do much hi speed street cruising without the liner.If this rubbing is new or becoming more prominent then I would also include weakening shocks in the differential diagnosis.

Why not do high speed cruising without the liner? Wasn't a problem at 170+

How does softening the front dampers help?

 

[Hrant]

Don, where are you finding/getting your Hoosiers with 225/40/17?

And yes, we know that camber is measured by degrees, but did you read my first post para two! :wink:

 

[docjohn]

Why not do high speed cruising without the liner? Wasn't a problem at 170+

How does softening the front dampers help?

Dampers that are loosing fluid ,malfunctioning as a function of use/time allow more spring occilation thus a greater chance for "bouncing" and more rubbing,but you knew that.I think you misunderstood my point:wink:

 

[JeffShoots]

Easy fix I did this track side for Igor. Take out the fender liners and than with Shads trusty jack handle I rolled the inner lip using the tire for leverage. The fenders bend easy.

No problem with rubbing after you take the lip out of the way :biggrin:

FYI: If you don't take out the inner lip you can cut your tires it's a suprize at speed bet you don't know how I found out :tongue:

Also you have a body lip directly behind the front tires that has to be cut off also. Shad and I cut both of these out with a side air cutter. After extreme braking you'll find this too :smile:

 

[stuntman]

Dampers that are loosing fluid ,malfunctioning as a function of use/time allow more spring occilation thus a greater chance for "bouncing" and more rubbing,but you knew that.I think you misunderstood my point:wink:

Yes, I just wasn't reading it right. I thought you were recommending to soften the dampers.

And yes I agree that dampers that are losing fluid/worn/shot/etc... do not damp/slow down the movements of the spring, thus resulting in oscillations/bouncy ride.

 

[4mulacar]

Dampers that are loosing fluid ,malfunctioning as a function of use/time allow more spring occilation thus a greater chance for "bouncing" and more rubbing,but you knew that.I think you misunderstood my point:wink:

Good point, if you do not see obvious fluid loss and suspect either the shock is in cavitation mode, check to see (I'm assuming gas shocks) you still have the recommended gas pressure charge level in the shock. There should be a good shock testing shop in your location of Northern Cal. Just a thought, I lose pressure preload gas in my Penske shocks and the result is cavitation of the oil making the nose pressure of the shock lessen or become spongy. My .02 on where to start troubleshooting if you suspect it may be the shock.

 

[stuntman]

Some pressure loss can be due to the schroeder valve

 

[Hrant]

Guys thanks for all the suggestions but some of you are digressing with over analysis ......... let's stay focused :wink:

The Koni pro shocks have no more than perhaps 5 track days and 5K miles on them and they were new when purchased last year; I am not that hard on them. The car is driven on the street 50% of the time it is NOT a dedicated track car so not having a liner is not an option. The rubbing occurs only in off camber under load when the suspension is compressing, the springs being 1000 is more than enough ......

Another local colleague of mine suggested this: http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/...emType=PRODUCT&RS=1&itemID=6159&keyword=31158

 

[stuntman]

If its rubbing the metal fender, that tool works great to roll the lip.

I've DD my street car (and the Factor X Silver Modified-class- daily driven street car, and many others run without the fender liners without any problems, rain and dry.

0.02

 

[Ojas]

If I increase the camber by -1 (doing only the top bushing), how many mm will I be pulling the wheel inside the fender?

To answer your original question, since your RA1s have an overall diameter of 24.4", I'd say 1 degree of camber corresponds to about 5mm.

 

[nsxnut]

Don, where are you finding/getting your Hoosiers with 225/40/17?

And yes, we know that camber is measured by degrees, but did you read my first post para two! :wink:

Both from Tire rack and from Hoosier west directly.

Like my attention span is good for more than one paragraph... Thought you knew me better than that...

When I ran the RA1's and Mish the tire rubbed on the outer edge.
I haven't rolled the fenders. Thought about it though...
With the Hoosiers I haven't noticed them rubbing.
It was always worse with a passenger.

 

[4mulacar]

Guys thanks for all the suggestions but some of you are digressing with over analysis ......... let's stay focused :wink:

The Koni pro shocks have no more than perhaps 5 track days and 5K miles on them and they were new when purchased last year; I am not that hard on them. The car is driven on the street 50% of the time it is NOT a dedicated track car so not having a liner is not an option. The rubbing occurs only in off camber under load when the suspension is compressing, the springs being 1000 is more than enough ......

Another local colleague of mine suggested this: http://www.eastwoodco.com/shopping/...emType=PRODUCT&RS=1&itemID=6159&keyword=31158

LOL, you may be correct but I do not even install my shocks when transporting my car as even just a 150 mile transporter run from Seattle to Portland get the beggars warm to the touch, so long ago I started removing them! Stuntman is correct about shrader valves I throw those damn things away every couple of weekends during a shock rebuild. I have never dyno tested street shocks how long do you guys get before the performance goes off? Sorry my natural curiosity! Does anyone know?

 

[Coz]

I took my front fender liners off long ago, no problems by doing so.

 

[ryneen]

Billy,
1) Thanks again for instructing me at Streets of Willow last Friday! I'm definately quicker for doing so.
2) Thanks for letting me use your new video camera. I was just watching the videos with your outboard camera on the front wheel and was really surprised at how little vertical motion the front wheel has while on track. I was worried that the front 235 R888 Toyo's were going to rub, but they didn't.
(For those interested, I'm running 1000lb front springs with Penske's).
Ryan

BTW - For anyone looking to go quicker (and safer), consider hiring Billy as your driving coach. You won't be dissapointed.

Stiffer springs aren't the answer.

1000/800 -springrates f/r?

With 1000's in the front, the suspension already dosn't move a whole lot. I have external onboard video aiming at the front tire with 1000s in the front, and the suspension already dosn't move a whole lot.

Are you rubbing the metal fender or the plastic liner? If it's the liner, remove it.

0.02