Call 911 CART has stopped breathing!

Joined
8 February 2003
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3,189
Location
45 min N. of Road America in Appleton WI
I attended CART @ Road America last weekend. I almost threw up! I thought I was at a SCCA regional event!!! few fans, fewer sponser tents, No sponser advertising banners, it looked like a club race weekend! Mario had a town hall meeting as such, and he even said that CART and IRL will come together or else both will go belly up. I would rather see CART flip over and Die before I give TG a penny of support! Mario also said that IRL is coming to the Milwaukee mile, and also doing road courses too I believe next year. WTF!

Thank god for ALMS,GRAND AM,SPEED,SCCA, PRO RALLY, TRANS AM, FIA RALLY, F1 etc etc.
 
the IRL has not yet confirmed they're going to do road courses...all they did was adjust the chasis's to better suit road courses, yet never actually came out and said the IRL will road race. Putting two and two together though, I would assume they are.

I don't really watch Cart or F1...Call me 'redneck' but I'm a big time NASCAR fan. I do watch speed vision though to keep up on most forms of racing, but NASCAR is my main squeeze.

<zips up flame suit>

By the way, any NASCAR fans see how pissed Bill Elliott was after the Brickyard??? Post race he complained about not going 1 more lap so they could line up single file and then on Speed Visions interview, they asked him if the changes to the new chassis's were noticeable...he said: "Ya, for the worse" with a really pissed off tone!!

I just notice this cuz he's my driver :)
 
Heard thru a little birdie that CART was going to be renamed next year and exclusively cohold events with rock concerts. I REALLY hope CART makes it thru this IRL "road course" crap. And yes, the IRL have actually confirmed road course races as of late last week. Cost per team for the chasis modification is suppose to be b/t 100k and 125k. I forget the specific tracks.

Maybe the USGP will get better attendance with CARTS' demise? Didn't mean to say it but the writing looks too clear to deny.
 
Ponyboy said:
Heard thru a little birdie that CART was going to be renamed next year and exclusively cohold events with rock concerts. I REALLY hope CART makes it thru this IRL "road course" crap. And yes, the IRL have actually confirmed road course races as of late last week. Cost per team for the chasis modification is suppose to be b/t 100k and 125k. I forget the specific tracks.

Maybe the USGP will get better attendance with CARTS' demise? Didn't mean to say it but the writing looks too clear to deny.

Well maybe speed vision is behind in coverage or I saw a re-run(even though they had Brickyard coverage at teh same time :rolleyes:), they specifically said that IRL hasn't yet confirmed road courses...just quoting SpeedVision...not calling you wrong.
 
CART TV coverage of Elkhart Lake

As far as TV coverage, it's not CART deliberately keeping Elkhart Lake off the networks. This race was originally canceled and Mario Andretti eventually managed to make a deal to bring it back. By the time the race was put back on the 2003 schedule they couldn't manage to find anyone who could air the race. CART managed to persuade HDNet to cover it.
 
With the big names leaving CART what does everyone expect. I sincerely don't see why they would choose series like the IRL. The CART format is soooo much better. Wait I remember why everyone is leaving, it beacuse of the greedy a$$es running the series. The greedy a$$es at CART are the ones responsible for ruining the series. Making it into a corporation was stuuupid.
Just because NASCAR made oval racing great doesn't mean that the IRL can do the same. People want to see open wheel cars doing road courses - at least I do. Expenses are on the rise in every sector of business, but come on guys get a f###in clue! There is no way TG (another greedy and selfish b@$t@rd) is going to merge with CART. We might as well say our good-byes to open wheel racing in America. JMO :mad:
 
92NSX said:
I can tolerate NASCAR for only short periods of time. I can watch F1 all day, but also like to dabble in WRC.



AMEN, Brother! I watch F1 live no matter what the race. I have had parties to watch Malaysia at 2:00AM! I also follow LeMans (more the race itself, rather than the ALMS) and go to Montreal every year. Nothing can ever equal the fury of F1!
 
Like it or not, CART has crapped in its bed and is now paying for it. A few out spent for winning then left when its sponsors wanted Indy victories in combinations w/lack of direction in the engine programs and a poor economy to properly fund teams. While some of you may think the IRL sucks, when was the last time you could throw a blanket over 1-3 places at a finish line of a CART race. You can't remember b/c it hasn't happened. Good racing...yes for the most part but they need more competition and sometime to lick wounds with Pook leading the ship.
 
I was at the race and with all fairness cart is dying, but it was cold and raining all day. Even in my Montoya williams raingear I was saoked! I didn't even take the NSX on the 6 hour joyride to get there only to wait for 4 hours before leaving without seeing a hotlap! I have driven there in the rain pleanty of times, those guys can do it too. They should have run as planned for those of us who made a 12 hr round trip. I left at just before the weak parade of a 34 lapper.
 
See, thats just an opinion clearly expressed...and I respect that.

I can't stand watching Cart/F1/IRL/Le-Mans, etc for a few reasons:

A) all the cars look the same
B) there are few drivers that you can relate too...just a few superstars and they dominate the races and thats about it.
C) All the cars look the same
D) An elite few always seem to be the best.
E) The courses are hard to memorize, a wreck and the car is gone for good, and it's too scattered across the globe...plus its popularity (particularly and mostly in the US) is no where near what NASCAR has generated.

NASCAR is stock car racing...any driver can win. Ya, there's dominate drivers, but it comes down much more to overall team strategy.

Take Bristol for instance: Matt Kenseth had a shot at the win but he decided to go against his team and avoided pitting even though there was rumor of a caution for debris. He pit under caution and fell back a few positions more than he would have...(i don't understand...i always thought pitting on caution when everyone else pitted green flag was GOOD :confused:)

Anyways, NASCAR also has much more personable drivers and much bigger names in overall motorsports. I mean, how many CART/F1/IRL circuits consecutively bring 80,000-200,000 people per event? Every event is sold out in NASCAR...Can the open-wheels say the same?

Sorry, its just a matter of opinion. I like oval courses better than twisties, but thats just me. I like watching IRL live because the cars are wicked fast on them ovals and sound bad ass!!

By the way, those of you who don't really "enjoy" NASCAR...have you ever been a race?? I HIGHLY suggest it!! No open-wheel could ever compare to the roar of a 750hp carb'd engine! None-the-less 42 of them! :)
 
AKUDOU said:
I don't really watch Cart or F1...Call me 'redneck' but I'm a big time NASCAR fan.

INDY SUCKS! HAS TO BE THE WORST SPECTATOR TRACK. '' BRISTOL ROCKS ''

God help you Brother... NASCAR= Left...Left...Left...Crash:D




Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
 
Brian2by2 said:
See, thats just an opinion clearly expressed...and I respect that.

I can't stand watching Cart/F1/IRL/Le-Mans, etc for a few reasons:

A) all the cars look the same
B) there are few drivers that you can relate too...just a few superstars and they dominate the races and thats about it.
C) All the cars look the same
D) An elite few always seem to be the best.
E) The courses are hard to memorize, a wreck and the car is gone for good, and it's too scattered across the globe...plus its popularity (particularly and mostly in the US) is no where near what NASCAR has generated.

NASCAR is stock car racing...any driver can win. Ya, there's dominate drivers, but it comes down much more to overall team strategy.

Take Bristol for instance: Matt Kenseth had a shot at the win but he decided to go against his team and avoided pitting even though there was rumor of a caution for debris. He pit under caution and fell back a few positions more than he would have...(i don't understand...i always thought pitting on caution when everyone else pitted green flag was GOOD :confused:)

Anyways, NASCAR also has much more personable drivers and much bigger names in overall motorsports. I mean, how many CART/F1/IRL circuits consecutively bring 80,000-200,000 people per event? Every event is sold out in NASCAR...Can the open-wheels say the same?

Sorry, its just a matter of opinion. I like oval courses better than twisties, but thats just me. I like watching IRL live because the cars are wicked fast on them ovals and sound bad ass!!

By the way, those of you who don't really "enjoy" NASCAR...have you ever been a race?? I HIGHLY suggest it!! No open-wheel could ever compare to the roar of a 750hp carb'd engine! None-the-less 42 of them! :)

I totally disagree with this....
A) Anyone who thinks a Ferrari looks like a Minardi does not look closely enough. I would argue that there is a greater difference between individual F1 cars than between "stock" cars. Remember, all stock cars have templates which restrict the bodywork dimensions. Oh, and yes, the NASCAR Taurus and Monte Carlo look just likt the models you can drive off the showroom floor.
B) Are you saying that you only relate to superstars? The biggest fan club in F1 is for Jos Verstappen, hardly a man who has a chance of getting a point, let alone winning.
C) Again
D) The elite few are the best because they work the hardest. While I am a Ferrari fan, and have been since the late 1970's, I can appreciate the fact that McLaren and Williams will always be winners because Ron Dennis and Frank Williams would rather have their eyes poked out, than to lose a race. They are totally driven to win.
E) The courses are not hard to memorize. If we were talking about the Old Nurburgring, with its 14 plus miles and 172 (I think) turns, then you might have been right. The current crop of courses have a good mix of fast and slow, left and RIGHT turns, although I would prefer fewer chicanes. F1 is run across the globe because its a world championship, not a regional series. This way you get a variety of conditions, extreme heat in maylasia, to the drenching "English sunshine". As for its popularity, F1 has a much bigger TV audience than NASCAR, by far. I agree that NASCAR is more popular than F1 in the States, then again, so is Anna Nicole Smith!

As for any driver having the ability to win, one must understand that F1 is a team sport. There is just as much competition to design and build the car, as there is to drive it. Thats why the Renault designer is being tempted to go to Toyota for $10 million a year. In NASCAR all the cars are generally equal, and when one make gets an advantage by working hard, NASCAR will reward their opposition with a new spoiler rule, or a bodywork adjustment of some kind. Kind of like rewarding the lazy. Also, NASCAR is far from a stock car. All the treams run basically the same tube frame with only the bodywork different. Oh, and how many rear wheel drive, carbureted Tauruses, Intrepids and Monte Carlos can you find in Ford, Dodge or Chevrolet dealers?

Finally, as a person who has seen a NASCAR race, the Pocono 500, the sound from just one F1 car is easily louder and more impressive than the entire pack of NASCARs. A Ferrari or BMW V10, screaming at 19,500 RPM, with the traction control cutting in and out, with the POP of a gear change in less than 15/1000ths of a second, with the carbon brake discs glowing firery orange in broad daylight is by far a more interesting and impressive sight. In Canada, the cars it 222 MPH at the fastest point, the slowest turn was taken at 40 MPH (oh and in the rain, the cars still were doing in excess of 200 MPH at the fastest point, while of course if it drizzles NASCAR hides in the garage).

For me, the basic difference lies in the idea that for F1, the car is an equally integral part of the show, while in NASCAR its all about the driver, and the car is merely there for the ride.

Finally, a NASCAR engine tops redlines at 9,000or so, the same as my old S2000, while an F1 engine IDLES at 7,000! I think the best comparison between NASCAR and F1 was made by the relative expressions on Juan Montoya and Jeff Gordon as they got out of each other's cars at Indy a few weeks ago. JPM was midly excited, saying that the car was heavy, and didn't brake very well, but that he enjoyed it. Gordon on the other hand was like a 17 year old kid who had just gotten the keys to a Ferrari, He was so excited and impressed!
 
9000RPMan said:
Gordon on the other hand was like a 17 year old kid who had just gotten the keys to a Ferrari, He was so excited and impressed!

Interestingly, Gordon's laptime was only 1.1 sec slower than Montoya (both driving the F1 car). It would be interesting to see Gordon move into F1...he probably has the talent to do that, unlike many/most NASCAR drivers.
 
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Brian2by2 said:
See, thats just an opinion clearly expressed...and I respect that. I can't stand watching Cart/F1/IRL/Le-Mans, etc for a few reasons:

Respectfully, your post sounds very similar to the typical discussion of why football is better than soccer: not really based on true facts, but on personal opinions and observation. I usually don't like to get into argument with anyone on the board, but I just want to make a rebuttal argument on some of the things that you stated.

By the way, those of you who don't really "enjoy" NASCAR...have you ever been a race?? I HIGHLY suggest it!! No open-wheel could ever compare to the roar of a 750hp carb'd engine! None-the-less 42 of them! :)

Have you then ever been to the F1 race? Or have you ever driven one? If not, how could you make such comparison?

plus its popularity (particularly and mostly in the US) is no where near what NASCAR has generated.

Obviously, you haven't well traveled outside of the U.S.

Anyways, NASCAR also has much more personable drivers and much bigger names in overall motorsports. I mean, how many CART/F1/IRL circuits consecutively bring 80,000-200,000 people per event? Every event is sold out in NASCAR...Can the open-wheels say the same?

Have you met any of the F1 drivers? Have you even had interviews with them? How do you know that NASCAR has "much more personable driver"? "Much bigger names in overall motorsports"? How do you determine this? Based on what data and sources??

how many CART/F1/IRL circuits consecutively bring 80,000-200,000 people per event? Every event is sold out in NASCAR...Can the open-wheels say the same?

For F1, yes. I wonder if you could say the same if NASCAR was held worldwide? Would it be still popular among European, Southern American, Oseania and Asian countries??

Again, I truly respect your opinion, but I just want to see your answers.
 
Ok, well, like I said: it was my opinion and you probably would disagree...but here go my answers:

First off, no, I have never been to an F1 race. When I goto a race, I want to see more than just 2 seconds of the race. I have, however, seen an IRL race at Homestead. It was fun. I said that I enjoyed the loud cars and the speeds!

As far as comparing the live experience to nascar: there is none. Just because something is high pitched doesn't necessarily make it a "better" sound. See, some like the rice sound while some like the deep grunt of an america muscle car (contradicting myself by driving an NSX :))

As far as teh cars looking the same: they're so small that there is hardly any room to put down a nice paint job, sponsor logos, numbers, or anything like that, therefore the cars pretty much look like their red, white, blue, yellow, black, or some other color with small little sponsor stickers to identify each driver.

As far as 'superstars', NASCAR I believe has that beat. I am not a fan of any open-wheel circuit. I could name maybe a few drivers, and I don't know what 'division' they're in:
-Schumacer (spelling)
-Fitipaldi
-Andretti (funny how much that name pops up in NASCAR now)
and thats about it honestly.

Someone who doesn't watch NASCAR name some names...

Tiger: I've been to Chile, the carribean islands, Mexico, Canada, Italy, and England...that enough "outside of the US" for you? :)

It's great that Open-wheel cars require teamwork...however, most of that team work goes on behind the race scenes weeks BEFORE a race. The pit teams in Open-wheels matter a fraction of what they do in NASCAR. In NASCAR, pit strategies come into effect much more.

The one thing I hated about the IRL race I saw was the race was over about 20 laps into it. The lead car was so much faster than everyone else that he was lapping them by lap 20! In NASCAR, its much much more of a competition! The cars are all monitored and limited to match each others capabilities. I don't know the restrictions on open-wheels, but it can't be strict or enforced to well.

This is all just opinion guys. I know you all love your open-wheel racing. I already said I enjoy it in person, but I wouldn't get into it on TV or anything. I don't want to start a flame war so if you want to continue debating it, thats fine, but jsut remember, no harsh comments or anything :)
 
Your opinions are definitely well granted..
I sincerely apologize for making assumption about the traveling outside of the U.S. part. I hope that you weren't offended, Brian.
 
not at all! I know that no one is pulling out the flame-thrower on this thread....yet ;)

It's all in fun. I just don't want anyone making personal attacks in the future of this thread. We can debate the racing styles all you'd like. I like 'debating'...<think to himself> "shoulda been a lawyer"
 
Steven Spanbauer said:
God help you Brother... NASCAR= Left...Left...Left...Crash:D




Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
I don't really watch Cart or F1...Call me 'redneck' but I'm a big time NASCAR fan. I didn't quote the above don't no how that got there all I said is that INDY SUCKS! HAS TO BE THE WORST SPECTATOR TRACK. '' BRISTOL ROCKS but since you mentioned it Indy is= Left...Left...Left...also:rolleyes:
 
It is an absolute shame what has happened to Cart. Cart was definitely the best racing series in existence in the early to mid 90's. The attendence and tv ratings were every bit as strong as Nascar and Formula 1. It was so good that Nigel Mansel, the reigning F1 champion left the series to go to CART. The Cart that everyone loved is dead now, regardless of what they try and pull off to save it. I am a big Paul Tracy fan, But I am finding it hard to watch CART this year, Ironically one of PT's best years! The reason some of the CART races are not on TV is b/c CARt is actually paying Speedvision and CBS to air some of there races. That is unbelievable. Just a few short years ago, they were fighting to outbid each other for the rights to Broadcast the races. I hate Tony George, He ruined Open wheel racing in this country, But you have to admire his business saavy. He is running Cart into the ground. I hate to admit it and I am not an IRL fan by any means, But I hope CART dies and the IRL tuns into the old CART(It looks like it is already on it's way) Maybe we will have a decent American Open Wheel series in 2005 or 2006 with big Names, Big teams, The Indy 500,road courses, street courses etc. I think that is our best chance! Thank god for Formula 1! By the way, Montoya will win the World Championship, just wait and see.
 
Brian2by2 said:
NASCAR is stock car racing...any driver can win. Ya, there's dominate drivers, but it comes down much more to overall team strategy.
These cars are far from as you say "stock". I don't know of any Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, Ford or other American car that produces 750+HP off the showroom floor. Add to the list the tube chassises. The only thing these cars have in common with their showroom cousins is the basic shape of the body. Sure everything is supposed to be based on stock components but get real!
Pit stop strategy doesn't stop at the NASCAR gates. All forms of motorsports that involve pit stops require strategy between the crew and the driver.
Every point you make can be related to CART, IRL, F1, NASCAR, IMSA, SCCA, Barber Dodge, Go-Karts, or any other form of racing or sport for that fact. Saying NASCAR is better than open wheeled racing is like saying men's soccer is better than woman's soccer. Just because the equipment is different doesn't make it better. Everything is dependant on spectator preference.
 
Stock car racing in terms of NASCAR is not referring to a Stock Taurus. Its referring to the general requirements set my NASCAR. Another words, your car must pass inspection and meet every single requirement nascar set forth and nothing more. The term stock refers to the fact that the cars out there are hardly unequal. While some teams find ways to squeeze a little more gas mileage out of the car, or better acceleration, everything is generally equal and it comes down MUCH MUCH more to the driver, the teams strategy and luck than any open-wheel race.

The pits mean so much more in NASCAR because the cars run so much closer together. Therefore, pitting is an oppurtunity to pull out some time over a leader or pick up positions. Two tires (9 second stop?) or four tires (14 second-15 second stop...)...splash and go (4-6 seconds) or do you need to make a spoiler or chassis adjustment...

Problem with open wheel is they come in and no matter how quick you are in the pits, the lead car is usually the fastest (usually by quite a bit) and therefore, he'll catch you unless he runs out of time.

I think any one who has a general knowledge of both sports would agree that pitting strategy comes into play much much more in NASCAR than in open-wheel.

As far as Gordon racing open-wheel, didn't he used to run opens a while back? or he was going to? i don't know, that sticks in my mind for some reason.
 
Has Gordon or any NASCAR drivers ever been involved as a major tech/racing source in developing sports cars like Senna did for NSX, M. Schumacher did for 360 or David Coulthard for new MB SLR? Just curious..
 
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