Brake upgrades...

[jaffaz32]

On track i find i get terrible brake fade after a few laps.

I only do casual track days and go out for a few laps at a time.

Currently Na1 EBC rotors and yellow stuff pads, all which were widely available in the UK at the time i needed them quickly.


The Nsx brake setup was designed to balance both the front /rear bias.

BBK all round is expensive, also now we have a rear parking brake issue as stoptech i believe no longer offer this option and there are reports of other vendors parking brake not being great.


so i was wondering what it's like upgrading just the fronts?

Does it really throw the balance out? does it mess up the handling when braking hard before turning in to a corner? Any experience, opinions or comments welcome

I did consider a Spoon upgrade purely being as it's a upgrade and not a huge... upgrade. Surely that would retain a little of the oem feel and bias? or doesnt that really matter that much?

the other thing was I didn't want to shell out for the Spoon upgrade either and find it not making much difference, would this be the case?

I don't go all out and race my car, it's just the odd track day here and there where i really notice them factory setup lacking.

I was thinking of going Cryo treated rotors all round and Carbonetic XP8 pads. Maybe with a front caliper upgrade, spoon would be a option as i need new rotors anyway.

Thanks.

 

[docjohn]

I personally have no experience with the ebc products, but my gut from reading about them is they are not the ideal tools for your needs....go with the xp-8 and grind off the ebc embedded material off your rotors and try a proper bed in procedure.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

There are many that have upgraded just fronts and done rears later on. That's kind of what I did as to not drop 5k in brakes at once.

Really though spoon brakes look nice but for the price just get Stoptech fronts. They are proven and you have the rears available as well, for the spoon you don't have a rear option. Many people track their stoptechs, I'm not to sure there are people that track their spoons, they usually get them for looks only.

 

[scammy]

I track with the Spoon callipers a lot, they are very good calliper you just have to purchase the 1997+ size rotors and better brake pads they take the s2000 pads. The two things you get apart from better braking capabilities are lighter weight and better cooling my rotors are lasting longer running these. Although the Stoptechs would be considered a better alround option if you dont track the car much its just bling. They do not alter the bias in any negative way at all, I believe just running the Stoptech fronts have no negative affect either.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

I guess for the price I've seen since you need to upgrade to 97+ rotors and such it equals roughly what I see Stoptech front kits going for. If you are looking for a complete kit down the line though then I would recommend something with a rear option you can add later.

I like the spoons, I just don't like how there's no rear. I even thought about inverting the valves but then the piston sizes would be upside down just to retrofit a rear.

 

[silver2002]

Based on what the poster wrote: " On track i find i get terrible brake fade after a few laps. I only do casual track days and go out for a few laps at a time.".....

The first move is to switch to a high temp brake fluid, like motul 600. A lesser fluid could easily overheat and cause the exact symptoms described. The next move would be new more aggressive pads, like the AE6 [the carbotech XP8's might be too much based on the post ] - making sure they are " bedded " properly. Then brake later and much harder for a shorter period of time.

I've fried many rotors and pads but never had brake fade with the stock calipers. I have XP8's on front and AE6 on rear.

 

[Patricio]

the NSX needs a rear brake upgrade more than front, this is commonly misunderstood. as with all mid engine cars allot of braking can be done with rears. but the OEM setups (except the NSXR) do not allow the rears to work, thus why OEM fronts overheat

Honda did realize this in 1997 when they decreased the front caliper piston size but increased rotor size and increased the rear caliper piston & rotor.,, but apparently that was still not enough as proven by Honda's final evolution of the braking system in the 2002 NSX-R which fully reverted back to the smaller NA1 front full setup which has stronger calipers but smaller rotors, and in the rear uses the full NA2 setup

NA1 / NA1-R
Front: 40mm / 36 mm pistons = 4563mm surface area (12% larger than NA2)
Rear: 43mm piston = 1452mm surface area
Rotors: 282mm rotors front & rear

NA2
Front: 40mm / 32 mm pistons = 4071mm surface area
Rear: 48mm piston = 1809mm surface area (23% larger than NA1)
Rotors: 298 mm front & 303 mm in the rear.

NA2-R
Front: NA1/NA1-R 40mm / 36 mm pistons
Rear: NA2 48mm piston
Rotors: NA1/NA1-R 282mm front and NA2 303mm rear

all parts are 100% interchangeable between NA1 and NA2 as long as rotors and brackets are matched.
anyone with a NA1 just needs to upgrade to NA2 full rear setup
anyone with a NA2 may benefit from upgrading to NA1 full front setup

if you want to mix and match the largest and strongest overall OEM parts that exist and have a stronger package than ever offered on any OEM NSX you can, but keep in mind too much front brake overpowers the rears and may not work as well as the NSX-R was designed to allow the rear to carry allot of braking.
That Biggest Baddest OEM larger than NSX-R setup is:
Front: NA1 40mm/36mm Calipers on NA2 caliper brackets with 298mm rotors.
Rear: NA2 48mm calipers on NA2 caliper brackets with 303mm rotor

and FYI The RB +1" brake upgrade kit is just NA2 sized rotors and brackets. (its a 1" upgrade on NA1 not an upgrade on NA2)
another consideration I have not seen done yet or mentioned on prime would be to keep the NSX-R ratios in line would be using the larger NA2 front rotors in conjunction with the RB +2" 330mm rear kit. (or better explained is the RB +1 front (oem NA2 298mm) and RB +2" 330mm rear.


as with any setup standard upgrades are:
add motul RBF 600 fluid
Porterfiled R4S or Hawk HPS pads
make brake ducts
remove your splash shields that hold the heat in.

if not changing any brake components, use more aggressive pad in REAR (NOT FRONT)

The NSXR OEM hybrid NA1/NA2 setup should hold up very very well, after-all it was good enough for the nurburgring.

 

[B2FiNiTY]

stoptech is offering the rear ebrake again as far as I know.

 

[dablackgoku1234]

The NA2 NSXR setup may hold up well, but when compared to today's cars, it needs attention. I'm toying with a mustang 350mm rear rotor, hopefully, get bracket for it made soon.

Edit: 14:37 shows how good the NSXR brakes

 

[Patricio]

Agreed there are stonger bigger aftermarket options.

I think the op is looking for oem options to keep costs low. Or stick to oem components.

Na2 rear calipers with brakets can be found for about $500 and avoids aftermarket e-brake issues that some have had.

The RB +2 rear 330mm would work if somone wants to keep all the oem calipers. For refrence Stoptech rotors 328mm front and rear.

 

[dablackgoku1234]

If OP is looking solely to minimize brake fade on the track on a budget, 97+ brakes with brake ducts will suffice.

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/info/real-world-brake-upgrades/

The rotor diameters went from about 11" to about 11.7". We were very surprised on our day at the track to see how much of a temperature difference this 7/10 of an inch made:

Name Brake Mods Front Brake Temp Rear Brake Temp
S.L. Henry Brand-New Bone Stock 2000 240 240

S.L. was driving in the instructor's group, and not pussyfooting around. The car was fully broken-in from just completed cross-country trip. Remember, his temps with the bigger rotors are to be compared to Chris' bone-stock '92, which averaged 450 degrees front and 300 rear. Damn! S.L.'s was the only car to really be cooler in the rear, as you would expect with the larger diameter rotors. What's surprising is that you would expect to see the fronts hotter than the rears, but that was not the case. S.L.'s brakes were running cooler than anyone else's, and without the assistance of any of our air deflection mods.

 

[nsxtasy]

Actually, you don't need to change any parts. As long as your brake fluid is fresh, and your brake pads are decent quality (i.e. OEM or performance aftermarket ones, but not generic-brand auto parts store pads), in 95+ percent of cases, brake fade is caused by lack of proper bedding and heat cycling of the pads. The problem is sometimes nicknamed "green pad syndrome".

With most streetable brake pads (i.e. not all-out race pads), the pads will fade the first few times you take them out on the track. This is due to what's called "outgassing", which takes place the first few times you get them very hot (which you do in your first few track sessions, but almost never on the street). Once you've gotten them hot a few times, they should be okay and shouldn't fade again for the remaining life of the pad.

You can prevent this fading by properly bedding the brake pads before you take them out on the track. Bedding is the process of repeatedly braking with increasing severity, which gets the brakes hot, and then NOT using the brakes again until the car is parked, and leaving it overnight. Bedding accomplishes two goals. In addition to heat cycling the brakes to prevent fade, it also leaves a thin coat of brake pad material on the surface of the rotor, which prevents vibration/shudder due to "hot spots", i.e. variations in the pad material on the surface of the rotor. You can read more about bedding brake pads in these technical white papers on the Stoptech website:

Pad and Rotor Bed-In Theory, Definitions and Procedures

The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System

I recommend doing a proper bedding procedure on the street, getting the brakes nice and hot and then letting them cool down without applying them, prior to your next track event. Try it - it's free. I'm betting you'll find that your brakes perform perfectly fine on the track with no fade. And if you do, you'll find that there's absolutely no need for a big brake system or anything other than the stock calipers, fresh high-temperature fluid (e.g. Motul RBF 600), and decent rotors and pads. That's based on 13,000+ actual track miles in my NSX.

Sheepish admission: When I first started out, I didn't know anything about bedding brakes, and I used to have lots of problems with fade and with vibration/shudder. Once I started getting rigorous about bedding my brakes before taking them out on the track, those problems disappeared.

Disclaimer: I've never used EBC brand pads so I have no idea what the yellow stuff pads are like. But I've used half a dozen other brands of pads and this advice applies to all of them.

 

[piran1]

I basically did the budget NA2 NSX-R setup... but kept the NA2 NSX front caliper bracket but used the NA1 calipers.
NA2-R
Front: NA1/NA1-R 40mm / 36 mm pistons
Rear: NA2 48mm piston
Rotors: NA2 297mm front and NA2 303mm rear

Carbotech AX6 or XP8 brake pads
Goodridge Brake lines
Front brake ducts
Removal of heat shields (backing plates)
Fresh fluid

 

[greenberet]

... Honda's final evolution of the braking system in the 2002 NSX-R which fully reverted back to the smaller NA1 front full setup which has stronger calipers but smaller rotors, and in the rear uses the full NA2 setup
...

NA2
Front: 40mm / 32 mm pistons ...
Rear: 48mm piston ...
Rotors: 298 mm front & 303 mm in the rear.

NA2-R
Front: ... 40mm / 36 mm pistons
Rear: ... 48mm piston
Rotors: ... 282mm front and ... 303mm rear

Regarding piston sizes, Kaz wrote that the front brake calipers in 1997-2005 NSXs used 40 / 34 mm pistons. He also wrote that the 2002+ NSX-R used the same calipers and pistons as regular 1997-2005 NSXs except that the calipers were black. And he knows because he overhauls the 2002+ NSX-R calipers on his NSX regularly. See here and here.

Regarding rotor sizes, when Procar Specials was selling a set of 2002+ NSX-R brakes, he said the rotor sizes were 298 mm front and 303 mm rear. See here.

I agree that Honda shifted the braking bias towards the rear in 1997, but where did you read that the 2002+ NSX-R used 40 / 36 mm pistons and 282 mm rotors at the front?

 

[asylum]

I have run many miles on track with slick tires and stock brakes. I NEVER had fading issues. You just need fresh fluid and good pads (forget EBC and go Carbotech, Pagid, PF or Hawk for example). You will also need to guide as much fresh air as possible to your discs. The only problem you will have, is that after 500 - 1000 track miles, your discs will crack. Running no slick tires, it will be more after 1000 track miles than 500.

 

[Patricio]

Regarding piston sizes, Kaz wrote that the front brake calipers in 1997-2005 NSXs used 40 / 34 mm pistons. He also wrote that the 2002+ NSX-R used the same calipers and pistons as regular 1997-2005 NSXs except that the calipers were black. And he knows because he overhauls the 2002+ NSX-R calipers on his NSX regularly. See here and here.

Regarding rotor sizes, when Procar Specials was selling a set of 2002+ NSX-R brakes, he said the rotor sizes were 298 mm front and 303 mm rear. See here.

I agree that Honda shifted the braking bias towards the rear in 1997, but where did you read that the 2002+ NSX-R used 40 / 36 mm pistons and 282 mm rotors at the front?

interesting, I guess there is conflicting information out there then



According to Vtec Sports magazine Vol.005 they specify the measurements, it is referenced in this thread
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...nversion/page2?p=157122&viewfull=1#post157122

A also remember it being n the Dali brake bias chart, but the info has been removed, but it is referenced here.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...rake-upgrade?p=1403007&viewfull=1#post1403007


It was also mentioned various times through out prime as well.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ger-than-NA2?p=1288918&viewfull=1#post1288918
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...s-in-a-NSX-R?p=1101530&viewfull=1#post1101530

Will look further into it to see if their is any old NSX-R press releases with the info to further confirm which calipers and rotors they used.

 

[greenberet]

... I guess there is conflicting information out there then

Yeah, it's sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you find the information from Honda, please post it.

Honda discussed the brakes of the 2002+ NSX-R here where they say it got slotted rotors, different brake pads, a different brake master cylinder for increased response, and new settings for the ABS computer. They didn't say the NSX-R got different rotor diameters or piston sizes. In the pictures, the 2002 NSX-R rotors look to be the same size as the 2002 NSX rotors.

It would be nice if Honda specifically mentioned the 2002+ NSX-R rotor and piston sizes somewhere but barring that, I'd trust Kaz since he's one of the engineers who designed the car and he put 2002+ NSX-R brakes on his.

 

[Patricio]

Yeah, it's sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you find the information from Honda, please post it.

Honda discussed the brakes of the 2002+ NSX-R here where they say it got slotted rotors, different brake pads, a different brake master cylinder for increased response, and new settings for the ABS computer. They didn't say the NSX-R got different rotor diameters or piston sizes. In the pictures, the 2002 NSX-R rotors look to be the same size as the 2002 NSX rotors.

It would be nice if Honda specifically mentioned the 2002+ NSX-R rotor and piston sizes somewhere but barring that, I'd trust Kaz since he's one of the engineers who designed the car and he put 2002+ NSX-R brakes on his.

Agreed...

I have always found it strange that info saying the NSX-R to have used the smaller NA1 rotor... since it would make sense to use the larger NA2 front rotor, but it also would make sense to have used the larger NA1 caliper piston.

So... if the NSX-R did retain the smaller NA2 piston size front calipers then that further exemplifies that installing a BBK upfront and retaining NA1 rear breaks is complete opposite of what Honda final design to downsize front pressure by 12% while increasing rear pressure by 23%. Resulting in an overall 35% shift towards rear clamping force in NA2/NA2R.

Resulting in the NA1 needing a rear upgraded caliper much more importantly than front.

As mentioned earlier Mid engines cars do allot breaking with the rear, this NA2 35% shift to rear would also explain the NA2's braking ABS system being thought of as a big upgrade, but in this case the ABS would not be the main factor if the NA1 brake bias was that far off and NA2 bias being much better designed for MR and thus not so much the ABS.

 

[Hapa88]

as with any setup standard upgrades are:
add motul RBF 600 fluid
Porterfiled R4S or Hawk HPS pads
make brake ducts
remove your splash shields that hold the heat in.

I agree with most of what you said except that you should be using the Hawk HP+ for track, not HPS. HPS is a street pad, trust me I made that mistake already (NT01s with Hawk HPS = Glazed & useless pads after 20 minutes).

My advice:
-New track rated pads
-DOT 4 fluid like ATE Typ 200 or Motul.
-Adjust your braking style.. As a novice you're probably braking over too long of a distance. Do hard braking over a short distance.
-Get larger brake air deflectors. Dali made some relatively cheap ones
-Get crappier tires (probably not the best advice for going fast, but it will help with brake fade due to slower speeds.. lol)

You don't need Cryo treated rotors, they are a waste of money IMO. My Centric standard rotors have held up fine with XP10s on my 3200 lb Mazdaspeed3.

 

[BATMANs]

http://ebcbrakes.com/product/orange-stuff/

Might be worth looking into, not sure if it's out for the NSX....

 

[Zoom]

Only red & yellow EBC for the NSX ... (at the moment)

side note i have Stoptech slotted rotors (97+ sizes), Stoptech SS lines, Motul RBF600 fresh fluid, Hawk HP+ pads all around - after 5 laps at Spa Francorchamps (admittedly a very fast track) i experienced fading.
That means bringing fresh air seems mandatory, not sure what amount of ducting i can set up in there (got the euro fog lights too.. not much left for duct and AC radiator cooling ?), also i guess i have to remove the heat shields but i'm wary of cooking my CV boots...

 

[jaffaz32]

Great info guys, thanks.

I'll be completely honest, i didn't realize what a big part the brake fluid played. I couldn't tell you what brand is in there, never changed it myself as i don't know how to.

I have a new brake master cylinder to go on, so i need to learn and change the fluid regardless. I don't think this is the cause of the fade as it's only just started to drop the brake pedal, the brake fade i was experiencing was way before this. I just thought it was time to give the brake system a well needed overhaul.

Never considered taking the heat shields off, will do that.

I do have bigger brake ducts.

I will also bed the brakes in before the next track session as advised.

I'm going to double check how much wear there is on my disks and pads as by the sounds of it, they may not be the cause. What's the general rule for when to replace rotors? i can still see the grooves and dimples but they are fading compared to new.

I'll consider perhaps mix and matching for a better oem setup.

I am boosted now, so i'm carrying more speed before braking into a corner.

 

[Zoom]

I couldn't tell you what brand is in there, never changed it myself as i don't know how to.

That means it *has* to be changed, and it's probably cooked and lost most of its properties by now, especially if you say the pedal drops a bit more than usual that means you have bubbles in there. Dont wait.

I'm going to double check how much wear there is on my disks and pads as by the sounds of it, they may not be the cause. What's the general rule for when to replace rotors? i can still see the grooves and dimples but they are fading compared to new.

It's a thickness measurement (use a caliper) i dont remember OTOH but it's in the owners manual definitely or maybe on the wiki here. Under that limit you have to replace them.

 

[Patricio]

Earlier is typed hawk hps by mistake. Yes the hp+ is the track pad. My mistake I actually used the porterfield r4s.

If u dont know what fluid is in there then your fluid may be your biggest issue at the moment. High temp brake fluid is a must.
Motul RBF 600 is dot 4 and works amazing.

Another thing to consider and more important than the brakes themselves is how the brakes are used.
Using the brakes is your enemy you want to use them the least amount of "time" as possible meaning get on them and off them fast as possible for a few reasons
1- The Harder and shorter your breaking is the less they heat up. And the faster your lap times will be.
2- Many nubies try to carry as much speed as possible just before the apex and through the apex and do this by dragging the brakes too long coming into the corner.
3- get your braking done hard and quick 50 meters or so before you need to and set up for the turn over with and lined up to get on the gas as early as possible. Especially with a turbo.
4- anytime your on the brake your body should be pinned hard against the seat belts. And the car should be in a staright line. that should describe 99% of all braking that you experience, and it should only last 2-4 seconds at most. It should be abrupt on the breaks and held solid hard untill it's time to smoothly (but quickly get off the breaks. And start your turn in.
5- late braking and trail braking are advanced teqniques that will only benifit very advanced drivers. Attempting these in any novice level will likley be done incorrectly and overheat the breaks and cause slower lap times and very likley create dangerous situations.

 

[dquarasr2]

Another thing to consider and more important than the brakes themselves is how the brakes are used.
Using the brakes is your enemy you want to use them the least amount of "time" as possible meaning get on them and off them fast as possible for a few reasons
1- The Harder and shorter your breaking is the less they heat up. And the faster your lap times will be.
2- Many nubies try to carry as much speed as possible just before the apex and through the apex and do this by dragging the brakes too long coming into the corner.
3- get your braking done hard and quick 50 meters or so before you need to and set up for the turn over with and lined up to get on the gas as early as possible. Especially with a turbo.
4- anytime your on the brake your body should be pinned hard against the seat belts. And the car should be in a staright line. that should describe 99% of all braking that you experience, and it should only last 2-4 seconds at most. It should be abrupt on the breaks and held solid hard untill it's time to smoothly (but quickly get off the breaks. And start your turn in.
5- late braking and trail braking are advanced teqniques that will only benifit very advanced drivers. Attempting these in any novice level will likley be done incorrectly and overheat the breaks and cause slower lap times and very likley create dangerous situations.

I agree with most of Patricio's post but maybe it bears some clarification.

Braking 50 meters before need to is OK but not if going for the optimal lap time. I agree that trail braking is an advanced technique, but, that said, it is better to *ease* off the brakes so as not to take the weight off the nose abruptly. I've had students jump off the brakes and turn the wheel hard, resulting in understeer and the car going straight. Patricio mentions "until it's time to smoothly (but quickly) get off the brakes". Important distinction. Yes, you don't want to drag them, but you also don't want to jump off them.

When I've instructed novices, yes, Patricio is right-on. Many brake long and easy, which does heat them up. (I used to do that when I first started, thinking I was being "smooth".) Now, Patricio's other comment about getting on the brakes hard needs clarification. I think a better way to state it is to ensure that most of the braking is done in the first part of the braking zone. But that does not mean that we stand on the brake pedal all at once. We first gently (but quickly) get weight on the nose of the car (so as not to avoid lockup from not having weight on the front tires), then be at maximum braking early in the brake zone, then as the turn-in point approaches, start easing off to transition smoothly from braking to turning (remember the friction circle).

Sorry, Patricio, didn't want your comments to be misunderstood.