Bondurant Grand Prix Course experience

[NsXMas]

I completed my first day of Bondurant Grand Prix class today.

Had to get up super early to drive all the way across town in order to get started at 8:30am. I was quite anxious to get started and absorb as much as possible.

There were about seven people in my class today. I was the only 3 day participant, but there were several Z06 experience participants, and two 2 day participants.

I received about 3.5 hours of instruction, on basic driving safety, how to control the car in turns, and heel-to-toe technique. The main thing I learned mentally is that the steering wheel is not the primary control mechanism in turns, it's the weight transfer of the car that's the primary means of control (and loss of) in turns.

I had about 4 hours in a Corvette C5. The car felt very comfortable driving under heavy braking and turning the entire time I had it. I started with heel-to-toe practice, and then did emergency accident avoidance, ABS braking, turning with ABS braking, and cornering. I practiced the basics over and over again, and felt somewhat comfortable with the theory and practical experience.

Tomorrow and the day after are going to be the really fun days, as I get to go on the track and use all the techniques, and learn new techniques on how to extract the maximum performance safely from any car I'm driving.

I'm already thinking about what I want to learn after this course. I think I may sign up for the drifting class early next year, since it's all about vehicle control under intense conditions.

 

[Dtrigg]

Thanks for the insight. Keep us posted regarding your impressions and what you are learning.

I am trying to decide which school I am going to attend.

 

[O-Ace]

Keep us posted! I wanna do some driving school too! It'd be a nice vacation

 

[NsXMas]

I was pretty tired this morning since I couldn't easily sleep last night, looking forward to track time today.

I woke up late but got to class on time at 8:30. We took a quiz, which covered vehicle handling, emergency manuevers, and racing manuevers.

Then the three of us (the two 2 day Grand Prix guys and me) followed the instructor out to the skid pad. We took turns driving the Cadillac CTS, which had hydraulic outer wheels attached. The instructor had a control which caused the car to go into understeer or oversteer. I experimented with various speeds of turning speeds, and learned how to react to understeer and oversteer. Oversteer was a lot more fun, since you get to punch the gas instead of slowing down like understeering. I got a good appreciation for how throttle and brake can supplement quick thinking to get a skid under control.

Then we did more accident simulation. We practiced stopping the Corvette C5 at maximum braking, short of activating ABS, at various speeds and distances. Then we practiced emergency ABS braking and steering to evade accidents. The Corvette performed very impressively, although my tires and brakes were smoking by the end of the exercises.

During lunch we met Bob Bondurant, and we chatted for a while about his school and the things we were picking up. Bob is a real down to earth guy and actually rides a bicycle around the facility checking on things.

After lunch we finally got to go on the large track. We had some instruction on the many corners and the straightway. Then we rode with the instructor for about 6 laps, noticing how he handled each corner. We all got suited up and helmeted, and drove our Corvettes for a good 2 hours on the track. I was having a complete blast trying to focus on learning the course, while focusing on attention, smoothness, consistency.

Again I beat the heck out of the Corvette, and I was seriously impressed with how the Corvette took the beating without any problems. The car got pretty warm inside the cabin though with all of the stress on the engine, transmission, wheels, and brakes. I never lost confidence in the ability of the Corvette to handle every corner.

One of the other guys managed to catch some dirt and do a 360 in his Corvette. I was very careful in managing my line and never had any serious loss of control. I did break the rear end loose and practice taking the Corvette to the limit that I felt comfortable with. I'm sure the Corvette could handle a lot more but I didn't want to go outside of my envelope unnecessarily. That said I did have a lot of fun taking corners very aggressively after 10-13 laps around, and had a lot more confidence in exploring the limits of the Corvette around some of the more difficult corners.

The two Grand Prix 2 day guys got to swap out their Corvettes for open cockpit Formula cars, and raced around the track with me in the Corvette. It took the guys about 20 minutes to get set in their Formula cars. Although the Formula cars have a theoretical 10 second per lap advantage in terms of handling over the Corvette, I was able to outlap the Formula cars because I had more seat time in the Corvette and more practice time on the track. As a result I had to tone my driving down so I didn't pressure the other two guys unnecessarily.

At the end of the day we had a mini "graduation" ceremony for the two guys, and we called it a day.

Even though I was tired due to a lack of sleep, as soon as I got to go on the track and do the performance driving, I felt 110% alive and awake. Every sense was honed on the intricacies of the track and how best to tackle every corner, do heel & toe downshifting, and get the fastest speed and the best line out of every corner.

I consider myself lucky, as normally the classes are designed for about 10-12 people max, and they are usually full. The track was wonderfully open with only the three of us today, so it was a real treat. Tomorrow I get to have the track to myself without any other cars, and I get the full attention and instruction of the instructor, so it's going to be outstanding.

Yesterday was a blast, today was another step up in performance and handling. I'm going to really really look forward to tomorrow!

 

[PKim]

nsxmas,
I'm yeager to find out how you liked the overall 3 day GP class. My friends have registered for the 3 day class for early Feb 2005. They want me to go but, I'm not sure I can take the time off, pulse it's pretty pricey at around 4K. I'm looking to go to the Fast Lane school with Danny McKeever in Willow springs. Has anyone done this class, the one thing is that you can use your own car, which is what I want to do, I know there is more wear and tear to your car but learning in the nsx is what I want to do.

 

[NsXMas]

nsxmas,
I'm yeager to find out how you liked the overall 3 day GP class. My friends have registered for the 3 day class for early Feb 2005. They want me to go but, I'm not sure I can take the time off, pulse it's pretty pricey at around 4K. I'm looking to go to the Fast Lane school with Danny McKeever in Willow springs. Has anyone done this class, the one thing is that you can use your own car, which is what I want to do, I know there is more wear and tear to your car but learning in the nsx is what I want to do.

I had a blast!!! If your friends are going, I'd highly suggest you go if you can. You won't have a better time, I guarantee.

I had a blast the 3rd day of the class, since it was just me, the Corvette C5, and the instructor. Basically I had the entire course open to me the entire day. A wide open course with a powerful Corvette, and being told to go have fun was all I needed.

I rode with the instructor for a few laps, noting how he handled the loop. I then took my C5 and ran the course for about 20-25 laps. It was amazing. I had slept well the previous night and focused on getting the corners just right. I drained the fully fueled C5 in that matter of an hour and a half of gas. The next thing I look down at the gauge and the gas is at "E"!!!

After my C5 was refueled, I took it around for many more laps. I also did the skid pad for an hour as well, honing my response to understeer and oversteer. I have to say it got pretty boring since I became so used to responding quickly to the drift and learning to put it under control, which is a good thing.

At the end of the day, I was a bit sore since I had so much seat time. But it was invaluable time that I believe difficult to get anywhere else. Now I can take my personal vehicles and learn how to apply the techniques I learned to drive them well.

Totally worth it, and totally fun!!! If you do find time to do it, I highly highly recommend it.

 

[docjohn]

It was fun reading your notes.I did his 4 day some years back,and it was great.We got to do a 15 lap race in the mustangs.If you get the track bug and want the next step imo try the Derik Daly formula school in Vegas,they have in car telemetry(invaluable) and only 15 miles from the strip!

 

[KGP]

Thanks for sharing your experience. :smile:

Opinions please: Would one be better off spending all their time in a GT car (i.e., C5) or should one do the formula thing, assuming your purpose is to learn and transfer the knowledge to track events with your NSX?

 

[SoCalDude]

nsxmas,
I'm looking to go to the Fast Lane school with Danny McKeever in Willow springs. Has anyone done this class, the one thing is that you can use your own car, which is what I want to do, I know there is more wear and tear to your car but learning in the nsx is what I want to do.

I did a one day class with Danny about a month ago. Pretty good. He said you get about 80% of the instruction the first day. If you continue with day 2 or 3, it's mostly track time. I took my car and even spun out 3 times :wink:

Send me your email and I'll send you a small video of me doing a couple of laps or if anyone out here can host it (about 1.1 mb), let me know.

 

[docjohn]

KGP I think the formula cars a good learning tool for tracking our mid-engine cars.Learning to feel a formula car can pay dividends because all of the motions and car movements are smaller than your street car.If you can feel an open wheel car's weight shifts and grip characteristics,then once back in your car it will feel like your nsx is yelling at you,rather than whispering.That is why most folks who drive these formula cars for the first time feel clueless,I did,because our buts are not used to sensing such small subtle in :smile: puts.

 

[RPM217]

KGP I think the formula cars a good learning tool for tracking our mid-engine cars.Learning to feel a formula car can pay dividends because all of the motions and car movements are smaller than your street car.If you can feel an open wheel car's weight shifts and grip characteristics,then once back in your car it will feel like your nsx is yelling at you,rather than whispering.That is why most folks who drive these formula cars for the first time feel clueless,I did,because our buts are not used to sensing such small subtle in :smile: puts.

Doc, hate to correct you, but as a new parent your son will be looking up to you, and assume that you're always right, so with that in mind, I thought that I'd help you with the proper use of the word "butt", I did understand your double entendre with in-put!!!

The noun "butt" has 8 senses in WordNet.

1. butt, butt end -- (thick end of the handle)
2. butt, goat, laughingstock, stooge -- (a victim of ridicule or pranks)
3. buttocks, nates, arse, butt, backside, bum, buns, can, fundament, hindquarters, hind end, keister, posterior, prat, rear, rear end, rump, stern, seat, tail, tail end, tooshie, tush, bottom, behind, derriere, fanny, ass -- (the fleshy part of the human body that you sit on; "he deserves a good kick in the butt"; "are you going to sit on your fanny and do nothing?")
4. target, butt -- (sports equipment consisting of an object set up for a marksman or archer to aim at)
5. cigarette, cigaret, coffin nail, butt, fag -- (finely ground tobacco wrapped in paper; for smoking)
6. butt joint, butt -- (a joint made by fastening ends together without overlapping)
7. butt -- (a large cask (especially one holding a volume equivalent to 2 hogsheads or 126 gallons))
8. butt, stub -- (the small unused part of something (especially the end of a cigarette that is left after smoking)) :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[docjohn]

Roge' I think your thesurus is showing.BTW with your butt analysis you would possibly make it through 10 minutes of the first racing lecture at which point the instructers would ask you to be flagger for the skid cars! :tongue:

 

[KGP]

Good points, Doc. I think I'm still leaning towards Skip. I'd consider Daly, but all their 3-day events are all in the middle of the week.

 

[2slow2speed]

Thanks for sharing your experience. :smile:

Opinions please: Would one be better off spending all their time in a GT car (i.e., C5) or should one do the formula thing, assuming your purpose is to learn and transfer the knowledge to track events with your NSX?

Hi Gene,

It all depends on your size, those formula cars are not really made for anyone who is really tall or broad shouldered, it's a very tight fit. There is very little legroom, shifting can be a serious challenge sometimes as well.

The amount of grip that is available on the formula car is also substantially higher than a street NSX can ever have so some things will definetely feel different.

If your entire purpose is to learn to drive a street car at the track, I would suggest going with the C5's, the only thing that you won't do as much with your NSX is trail braking.

BTW: I talked to the Bondurant folks earlier this year while I was down there for the SuperKart school, the C5's have been detuned in order to keep students from getting themselves into too much trouble. (Not really sure by how much thought, back when I took the class they still had the Roush tuned Mustangs..)

If you really want to drive a Formula racecar then I would suggest attending Skip Barber or Jim Russell instead, the upkeep on their cars is better than the Formula cars that Bondurant uses.

Just my 2 cents.

Ken

 

[RPM217]

Roge' I think your thesurus is showing.BTW with your butt analysis you would possibly make it through 10 minutes of the first racing lecture at which point the instructers would ask you to be flagger for the skid cars! :tongue:

Butt Doc, I don't think I'd last even 10 minutes as a "flagger"!!!! Oooops, you're not a "Butt Doc", Bob tells me that you take lousy pictures and then try to find things in them!!!! How about posting some pictures of the newest "addition" to the family????? :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile: :smile:

 

[PKim]

I did a one day class with Danny about a month ago. Pretty good. He said you get about 80% of the instruction the first day. If you continue with day 2 or 3, it's mostly track time. I took my car and even spun out 3 times :wink:

Gene,
So the first day is 80% instruction? is that in class instructions? That would mean very little track time. Did you do any wet skid pad exercises? I've been to S of W and Big willow, I just want more personal attention at the track level. Also wet skid pad in the nsx would be fun and invaluable exercise. I'm thinking about doing the 2 day if there is more track time the 2nd day. Also I wouldn't have to take off work as much as the bondurant class. PM me.

Paul

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Thanks for sharing your experience. :smile:

Opinions please: Would one be better off spending all their time in a GT car (i.e., C5) or should one do the formula thing, assuming your purpose is to learn and transfer the knowledge to track events with your NSX?

Gene,

what is your basics like? Have you done a few open track with good instructors? Have you read lots of books? Be honest with yourself and give an honest evaluation. On thing I notice about people owning fast cars (NSX is one of them) is they often over-evaluate themselves. Just because you're faster than most people in your local HPDE, it doesn't mean you're experience or good enough. Most likely the car made you look fast.

That being said, if you have good basics, I will choose advance school. The first 3 days school is boring for experienced driver.

I will always opt for open wheel. It is easier to adapt to close wheel cars as everything is slower with close wheel car. The basics of driving is still the same, no matter what car you're driving.

 

[SoCalDude]

Gene,
So the first day is 80% instruction? is that in class instructions? That would mean very little track time. Did you do any wet skid pad exercises? I've been to S of W and Big willow, I just want more personal attention at the track level. Also wet skid pad in the nsx would be fun and invaluable exercise. I'm thinking about doing the 2 day if there is more track time the 2nd day. Also I wouldn't have to take off work as much as the bondurant class.
Paul

I'll answer here just in case anyone else is interested in this class.

We spent the first 1 1/2 hours in the classroom before hitting the track (Streets of Willow). That along with the instructor's driving and riding with you is the 80% instruction time. The rest of the day was either on the track or the skid pad. We did dry and wet skip pad. They said day 2 and 3 are mostly track time. Day 2 being on the Streets of Willow again and day 3 on Big Willow. You can get as much personal attention as you want from the instructors. They probably sat with me for 7-10 laps that day. If you need more, all you have to do is ask. My class had 12 folks and 4 or 5 instructors. I tried 4 of them and found one who's teaching style worked best for me.

You can also do the 1 day and come back for day 2 or 3 at a later time. I may do day 2 next year.

 

[NsXMas]

Send me your email and I'll send you a small video of me doing a couple of laps or if anyone out here can host it (about 1.1 mb), let me know.

I'm hosting the video for SoCalDude.

I'm editing a short segment of my track time at Bondurant, and hope to link it here later so those who wish to can get a video preview.

 

[KGP]

Gene,

what is your basics like? Have you done a few open track with good instructors? Have you read lots of books? Be honest with yourself and give an honest evaluation. On thing I notice about people owning fast cars (NSX is one of them) is they often over-evaluate themselves. Just because you're faster than most people in your local HPDE, it doesn't mean you're experience or good enough. Most likely the car made you look fast.

Oh, I'm under no illusions of grandeur, that's for sure. After I went and watched Steve race last year I knew full well that there was much to learn, probably even for the most experienced HPDE'rs. I have only read two books, one being Skip's, and the other a solo 2 book. Skip's was a good read.

Ken did bring up an important point, at least in relation to me, in that the formula cars are small, and that "are not really made for anyone who is really tall or broad shouldered." While Skip's FAQ state the size restrictions as "6'-5" and 240lbs, I'm sure that proportions can effect those limitations. Being 6'-3" and 225lbs with fairly long legs, I wonder if I might feel cramped in one of the formula cars. All: Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[NsXMas]

.... Being 6'-3" and 225lbs with fairly long legs, I wonder if I might feel cramped in one of the formula cars. All: Thanks for the thoughts.

I think if it's open car you should feel okay.

Another student was about same height as you and had problems fitting in the C5 with the helmet.

Try one and let us know! :smile:

 

[NsXMas]

Ok I edited a very short clip of my ride with the instructor.

I recorded the clip with my Canon digital camera, and I was being shaken a bit due to the G-forces. So I apologize for the shakiness of the video.

However, the video clip does give a small pre-view of the track. The sound reproduction is very accurate, and the C5 sounds very good, especially if you use good PC speakers.

Enjoy!

:smile:

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Oh, I'm under no illusions of grandeur, that's for sure. After I went and watched Steve race last year I knew full well that there was much to learn, probably even for the most experienced HPDE'rs. I have only read two books, one being Skip's, and the other a solo 2 book. Skip's was a good read.

Ken did bring up an important point, at least in relation to me, in that the formula cars are small, and that "are not really made for anyone who is really tall or broad shouldered." While Skip's FAQ state the size restrictions as "6'-5" and 240lbs, I'm sure that proportions can effect those limitations. Being 6'-3" and 225lbs with fairly long legs, I wonder if I might feel cramped in one of the formula cars. All: Thanks for the thoughts.

Gene,

I don't mean to undermine your ability. I'm sorry if it came out like that. I was trying to tell you to make an honest evaluation about yourself so you don't make a mistake choosing the school. It is also important to know if you are good with the basics, likd heel-toe, treshold braking, and limit of adhesion. If you think you need improvement on that, than the introduction school is the right one to start on.

I don't think your size will be a problem. You're in the upper range for sure. But those cars actually made to fit big American guys

 

[KGP]

Gene,

I don't mean to undermine your ability. I'm sorry if it came out like that.

It didn't come accross that way at all. I know I'm a schmoe driver, and have no problem admitting it. Thanks, Andrie. :smile:

 

[PKim]

Oh, I'm under no illusions of grandeur, that's for sure. After I went and watched Steve race last year I knew full well that there was much to learn, probably even for the most experienced HPDE'rs. I have only read two books, one being Skip's, and the other a solo 2 book. Skip's was a good read.

I highly recommend this book, "Going Faster! Mastering the art of race driving." this is a must read. Very informative and lots of tib bits on improving your time.

Paul