Bogus information provided by another Prime member

[Devin@AEM]

...recently re-tuned the world’s fastest Civic again to break another record against the AEM peeps. (Funny story there the AEM in the car was malfunctioning, the head AEM guy came to our camp configured it, we made our pass with yet another data failure, the result just try it again and see…)

Just wanted to remind you that the Progress car you are referring to is a 2.0L blown class car not to mention the data logging malfunction you mentioned was due in part to the user's, or should I say, tuner's settings.

FYI "The head AEM guy" you spoke of runs a record holding 1.5L "AEM peeps" Civic. Not remotely close to the same class, but if you want to say the car you helped with is faster, that's fine I suppose. Hey, at least the little 1.5L Civic will run 200 MPH with working data logging.

Speaking of Bonneville - Did you guys know the GM Performance 2.0L Ecotec car (same class as the car you helped with) that destroyed your times out there was running an AEM EMS? Just wondering. The data logging I believe worked on that one as well.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

I don't take sides on events that I did not personally witness and I think that all the parties in this thread are amazing in the tuning/performance profession.

But.....I must be lucky. Since Mikey was here to tune my car I have seen him called a "crazy Hawaiian tuner", a "rookie tuner", a "destructive tuner", a race only tuner" and so on.

But let me tell you what I witnessed. A tuner who took the time to get to know everything about my set up and goals that had NEVER been achieved before on an OBDII NSX.
He used the HKS V-PRO and had the car cold starting on the first crank doing the initial tuning on 40-degree mornings.
He carefully watched timing and fuel and stayed more conservative than I would have. I had a lot of confidence in my intercooler and he suggested we let it go through a hot summer before we programmed for the last bit of power. I am glad I waited.
For 15 hours he worked on CEL’s, drivability, part throttle, hot start, cold start, DBW, cruise control, decel timing and many more. He programmed fixes for OBDII problems that had never been done before on an NSX.
The car was just at NSXPO where many people beat the hell out of it for 3000 miles and the only problems I had were some odd belt wear and needing to lean out the wide band AFR slightly while cruising 900 miles down and 900 back. The wide band was installed one week before XPO just so we could use the long trip for info.

I know there are a lot of great systems out there and I may have gotten lucky but I don't think all that happens by luck. I have the perfect aftermarket ECU and tune, the one you can't even tell is operating your car.

Joe

If one time is blind luck, then the second time must be a fluke. :tongue:

In watching Mikey take his time tunning my torque monster, I could tell he knew what he was doing. He did an amazing job! Right away my throttle response increased tenfold. The car idled like it never had before and the power levels were insane. Everyone who's gone for a ride or driven my car has said it's the most streetable NSX they have ever been in, but really moves when they punch it. I think Mikey did an incredible job in blending every day driving and track worthiness.

And if these two first-hand witnessed stories aren't enough, I'm sure I could get Espirit1 to chime in on his first hand experience to make it three.

 

[Devin@AEM]

All the way back to my very first post...Mikey seems to have learned a lot about tuning in the last year or so. Now that we are clearly in agreement here, let's stay on topic about the misinformation that is being passed on to members of this community.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Just wanted to remind you that the Progress car you are referring to is a 2.0L blown class car not to mention the data logging malfunction you mentioned was due in part to the user's, or should I say, tuner's settings.

FYI "The head AEM guy" you spoke of runs a record holding 1.5L "AEM peeps" Civic. Not remotely close to the same class, but if you want to say the car you helped with is faster, that's fine I suppose. Hey, at least the little 1.5L Civic will run 200 MPH with working data logging.

Speaking of Bonneville - Did you guys know the GM Performance 2.0L Ecotec car (same class as the car you helped with) that destroyed your times out there was running an AEM EMS? Just wondering. The data logging I believe worked on that one as well.

I didnt realize you were out there on the salt also, you should have come by to say hi. The Progress car is 2000cc, G/BALT class car. You realize the big deal was it was a race to have the first production Honda car in the Bonneville 200mph club. I would be surprised if it was the tuner’s fault as the data logging was set up by John Romero and another AEM tuner. Remember, we seeked him out for help, and was nice enough to lend some parts off of his car.

Our fellow salt friend and water jet cutter, destroyed our MPH also with an Ecotec motor running on THREE Cylinders!!! It was awesome!

We having nothing against John and his efforts as we respect those that get into the ring to showcase what they can do and not just talk about how it should have been done or how they could have done it better.

 

[Esprit1]

And if these two first-hand witnessed stories aren't enough, I'm sure I could get Espirit1 to chime in on his first hand experience to make it three.

Sorry I don't have time to chime in. I'm having way too much fun with the Blue Devil.........:biggrin:

Bst Rdgs
Paul

 

[RacerX-21]

One serious question for Rob:

Please be honest...Does this have anything to do with the fact the AEM would not sponsor your NSX race car project or provide you with the EMS that you requested some time ago?

This isn't personal is it? Your sponsorship proposal to AEM reads very differently than your words here on Prime.

Just trying to find the facts.

A direct question will always get an answer.
No, you will find that 99 out of 100 sponsor requests aren’t fruitful, why would I single AEM out unless I had issues with their product or service.
Look at the date on that sponsor proposal, this was at I time where I was trying to get anything I could. It was also before I started racing the NSX and was still in the build phase. You will also see that before I got a chance to get a response on any of the 100+ sponsor proposals, I had already logged tech calls with the problems I was having with your product. Just before the first race I was in panic mode because your product wasn’t working, this was a big race to me (A World Challenge race) and I wanted AEM to help me as a customer and loan me a working model until they fixed the one I paid for. Of course that didn’t happen. At this point I wrote AEM a letter describing my disappointment with them. I’m not an idiot; I knew I was destroying any relationship I had with AEM, even if the issues were your fault. But I’m not going to kiss ass after your product and company left me hanging… I would rather buy my own engine management. I also sent my unit back to AEM for repair. I remember delays in getting it back as promised, I called to find that you hadn’t even looked at it yet so made a stink to get it back immediately. It did arrive immediately with a response that nothing at all was wrong. Meanwhile this was at a time when people were sending their AEM/NSX units back to get some resistor change and that wasn’t even mentioned. I’m not sure you even looked at it, and if you did why wasn’t the revision mentioned?

Now that I answered your question, please take the time to answer mine:

Do you or AEM know that running waited spark in the NSX can cause problems that wouldn’t be found if running the coils directly?
Do you or AEM know that you have a problem filtering noise with the NSX unit?
Do you or AEM understand the ramifications of having noise problems under max load?

 

[RacerX-21]

Rob, would you mind disclosing the positive characteristics you gave the AEM EMS in your sponsorship proposal? Were there specifics to the EMS you presented as wanting AEM sponsorship?

Hi Shawn,

I’m sure any of my proposals would be flattering, but this proposal particular proposal would have been prior to my experience with the AEM product. I only knew they made a product for the NSX.

If you search my previous posts, you will find that I’m consistent from the beginning. Listing problems and still saying that if you willing to settle for its compromises it is the best bang for the buck. As time goes I discover more issues to add that it shouldn’t be trusted under heavy load. Fix the electronics and I will take the software over any. Then work on company policy.

 

[RacerX-21]

All the way back to my very first post...Mikey seems to have learned a lot about tuning in the last year or so. Now that we are clearly in agreement here, let's stay on topic about the misinformation that is being passed on to members of this community.

When are you going to answer questions?

Do you know of problems with the NSX unit?

What are they?

Now were going to see if I gave you too much credit or if you’re going to follow company policy.

 

[The Kid]

The car was just at NSXPO where many people beat the hell out of it for 3000 miles and the only problems I had were some odd belt wear and needing to lean out the wide band AFR slightly while cruising 900 miles down and 900 back. The wide band was installed one week before XPO just so we could use the long trip for info.

I was Joe's official co-pilot for NSXPO 06 and I have to say, the car was simply unreal. Made my NSX feel almost stock. No drivability issues, 1 check engine light that went off after 1 drive cycle, and fast as hell (isnt that right Armando:biggrin: ). I was very impressed, for whats it worth.

I just purchased the AEM last week for my S2000, I let you guys know what I think:wink:

 

[Flexer]

Agreed, Devin I am very interested in getting a AEM EMS as I have had them on three of my other cars with no problems, but it sounds like it is a hand-full with the NSX. These are real problems it seems so I am currious to see if you will admit to them, or sweep them under the table.

J. R.

PS. I still have faith in your products don't let me down. I have already invested 6 grand in your company for the other three ecu's :biggrin:

When are you going to answer questions?

Do you know of problems with the NSX unit?

What are they?

Now were going to see if I gave you too much credit or if you’re going to follow company policy.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

All the way back to my very first post...Mikey seems to have learned a lot about tuning in the last year or so. Now that we are clearly in agreement here, let's stay on topic about the misinformation that is being passed on to members of this community.

Agreed! Now that we all know Mikey has been improving year over year for the past decade we can now go back to the topic at hand. Although it seems you have a disdain for us you have been quite helpful to the community and I'm sure people subscribing to this thread are gaining valuable information. Here is a question that we were always curious about since we had issues with noise.

Could you please share your information in regards to the filtering capabilities of the AEM EMS v. that of the OEM ECU?

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Here is some additional reading regarding the positive and negative experiences with the AEM, HKS, and MoTeC. Hopefully it will save some keys on this thread.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230779&page=4

Edit: For those that do not have an account Username: kennami Password: panther

 

[BioBanker]

I think that asking Devin to admit, personally as a representative of AEM, that the unit may have some issues is not fair.

His comments will be considered a publicly made statement and could reflect poorly upon AEM, which as an employee of AEM, could result in ramifications between him and his employeer. I wonder if any of you believe that is Devin's place to make such comments for the corporate AEM; as I understand it, it is his place to tune the cars to the best of his ability, and provide FB to AEM as to how the units may be improved.

And as a passive observer of the world of NSX tuning, my impressions are that he is one hell of an amazing NSX tuner.

 

[WOODY]

Here is some additional reading regarding the positive and negative experiences with the AEM, HKS, and MoTeC. Hopefully it will save some keys on this thread.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230779&page=4



Edit: For those that do not have an account Username: kennami Password: panther[/

The supra forum thread is over 2 years old and many of the issues described have been addressed since then.
edit-not just issues but wishlist items also

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Here is some additional reading regarding the positive and negative experiences with the AEM, HKS, and MoTeC. Hopefully it will save some keys on this thread.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230779&page=4



Edit: For those that do not have an account Username: kennami Password: panther[/

The supra forum thread is over 2 years old any many of the issues described have been addressedd since then.

Thats exactly my point These issues have existed with other tuners as well in the past, just trying to clear up the bogus information provided here by Devin from AEM in regards to Mikey's inability to tune years ago. Hopefully, the problems have been fixed but we keep hearing about them from other racers and respected tuners.

 

[Devin@AEM]

First of all Ken, I do not have any personal disdain for you, Mikey, or FactorX. I DO have a problem with the fact that you guys blame your personal learning curve setbacks on product and not people - Mikey's AEM tunes from a year ago were sub-par to say the least. He has bettered himself since then...Let's get on with things.

Rob - Your very first post asked the following questions:

Two direct statements-
1) How many other tuners have complained and how many of those cases have you investigated? Why would you think that none of them are legitimate?
2) Address the noise issue (Don’t forget to go outside and do the test at idle) maybe your just not aware of it.

My very next post which included data for everyone to observe:

So please intelligently discuss the noise issue. I have also seen noisy EMS traces and every single time have been able to address and fix the issue by checking for and improving harness related ground and power connections.

As for the second direct statement, please let me know how many tuners have complained of this. If you don't feel comfortable dropping names pre your post, I will address each one privately with you offline.

I also replied to your statements regarding coil charging. Your response was to brush off my findings as "just dyno pulls at 600+ that’s easy on an engine". Without knowing the facts of any development I have been involved with, how can you make that statement? Just this last week, I was responsible for overseeing a 60 minute (yes 1 hour) long, extremely high-load durability test on a NSX with a fully built race engine and GT4294R based turbo kit purely for the sake of durability testing. This is a car that was built to sustain over 800 wheel HP levels on race gas with this setup and had ZERO problems running sustained high loads for an hour straight without rest and without EVER letting off the throttle. I am not going to disclose this company's name or project as it is none of my business, but I will certainly be contacting them to see if the video could be posted here on Prime - the entire test was video taped. I imagine he would be happy to make a separate thread.

I CAN'T ACCEPT OR SIDE WITH YOU REGARDING A PROBLEM WITH OUR IGNITION HARDWARE SETUP (OR NOISE) AS THIS CAR RAN A STOCK HARNESS, STOCK NSX COILS, NO AUXILERY IGNITION AMPLIFIER, AND THE SAME 30-1002 NSX THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING. How many times will I have to repeat this?

I have also said previously that I too have seen noisy traces, but were able to track these down to marginal grounding and/or power wiring. Unfortunately, many of these cars are have been worked on by one or more people and harnesses are sometimes disturbed or removed and replaced - items like this get missed or overlooked.

Please don't insult my intelligence regarding the ramifications of noise and durability.

As for an OEM ECU's capability to filter noise Ken, I would absolutely assume that millions and millions of dollars and decades worth of research and development would net a near flawless product. How could I possibly compare this development to any aftermarket product - AEM or otherwise?

Lastly, I was a user of AEM's electronics years prior to my employment there. I started installing and selling NSX EMS units over 3 years ago when they were released to the public, again before my employment there. I give my opinions here on Prime 100% as a USER and member of this community and NOT as an employee. I am extremely proficient with and have tuned every single management system listed in this thread as well as the ones listed in some member's signatures and would personally wager every asset and dollar I own behind my tuning abilities - using AEM software or others.

If my personal opinions or words about the product get me fired, so be it. I stand behind the product and will continue to do so if I continue on to do other things.

 

[Devin@AEM]

As some of you know, I travel quite often and am not always in the office. I will however, continue to answer questions when I can get away (mostly evenings) and will always be willing to discuss FACTS. Strong OPINIONS are often hard to debate in a positive manor.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

I was Joe's official co-pilot for NSXPO 06 and I have to say, the car was simply unreal. Made my NSX feel almost stock. No drivability issues, 1 check engine light that went off after 1 drive cycle, and fast as hell (isnt that right Armando:biggrin: ). I was very impressed, for whats it worth.

I just purchased the AEM last week for my S2000, I let you guys know what I think:wink:

Fast is a relative term, and yes Joe's car is fast................ relatively speaking

I have been running with the AEM for more than 3 years, and it that time I have had 2 seperate tuners. Shawn fro Torque Freaks, and Frank Smith from Smith Speed, non have encountered any of the issues mentioned. I am not suggesting that they problems dont exist but just the we have no encountered then, also keep in mind that the AEM on my car has seen everything from and N/A motor to the HP we are at now.


Armando

 

[Vega$ NSX]

I think that asking Devin to admit, personally as a representative of AEM, that the unit may have some issues is not fair.

His comments will be considered a publicly made statement and could reflect poorly upon AEM, which as an employee of AEM, could result in ramifications between him and his employeer. I wonder if any of you believe that is Devin's place to make such comments for the corporate AEM; as I understand it, it is his place to tune the cars to the best of his ability, and provide FB to AEM as to how the units may be improved.

And as a passive observer of the world of NSX tuning, my impressions are that he is one hell of an amazing NSX tuner.

I agree except I feel that he took upon himself to support his position and his company. It was he who started the thread and fire the first shot across the bow. He didn't have to respond to anyone's post. He didn't have to start this thread. And he certainly didn't have to make a direct attack on a specific called out company, to which I still can't figure out why they were even brought up and dragged into this in the first place. Sure he tried to mask it by saying company X, but it was pretty explicit that he was saying Factor X all along. It's like if I said "a person whose name stars with D and works for a tuning company that starts with A” it’s pretty obvious who I’m talking about. If the beef is with RacerX-21's comments, then why didn’t he address them directly. Why go and slander another company?

Secondly, let’s look at the hypocrisy of it all. In this post he attacks Factor X pretty explicitly. When people rush the defense of the company and their experience, he wants to quickly dismiss it.

All the way back to my very first post...Mikey seems to have learned a lot about tuning in the last year or so. Now that we are clearly in agreement here, let's stay on topic about the misinformation that is being passed on to members of this community.

Yet when someone attacks his company, he starts an entirely new thread and rant to address it. He didn’t just sit there and say nothing when someone slandered his company, so why would he expect anyone else to do the same? Where I come from, if someone were to slander me the way Devin did, “dem’s fightin’ werds” and I feel justified to defend myself. On top of all of that, he missed the point. We aren’t trying to say Mikey just learned how to tune in the last year or so. Does anyone really think I would have dropped a ton of my hard earned ducketts to a guy that’s just figuring out how to tune? What we are trying to say is that we all feel Mikey has a history of good tuning. So when we are more likely to believe his side of the story it is because we have all witnessed first hand that his skill level of tuning isn’t just picked up in a few months, but through years of good tuning. Knowledge can be had, wisdom takes time. I’ve talked with Mikey for hours and he speaks wisdom.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Another good thread talking about pros and cons of the AEM:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90570&highlight=motec+vs+aem

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

First of all Ken, I do not have any personal disdain for you, Mikey, or FactorX. I DO have a problem with the fact that you guys blame your personal learning curve setbacks on product and not people -

Well that is good to hear, I have never meet you only heard things about you and what you have said. I always try not to make any prejudgements about people that participate on Internet forums as inflection does not always come across well in simple text.

The problem you have is the same problem I have in regards to statements of fact v. opinions. The issues that happened about four years ago, most likely before your employment. Thus it is frustrating to see someone claim facts when they were not involved in the problem at hand. If Mike has time and if people want to further discuss what happened 4 years ago (I would prefer not to as it is water under the bridge) then maybe we should open another thread. I believe I still have a file on the whole issue as I was contemplating alternative actions at that time.

Here is some more reading for those that are interested in ECU opinions and experiences. Hopefully more useful information will be discussed to help those that are on the fence.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1628296

 

[Alittleboost]

Let me get this straight...

Factor X is saying to go with HKS F-Con
Devin is saying to go with AEM.

But to my understanding AEM has more tunning parameters than HKS but has some signal problems?

I'm now confused I was to drop some cash on a AEM for my CTSC NSX..and have it tunned at autowave, or now should I go with HKS? and have it tunned by S-P engineering?

I was planning the AEM, boost gauge, and AEM UEGO.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

From a laymans perspective, I think what Devin is trying to make come across, is that of the EMS systems mentioned the problems encountered with each has been tuner related. If you find a tuner that you are confident with and he is versed in X EMS then that should be your choice. The best most expensive systems will blow up an engine with the wrong tune.


JMO
Armando

 

[Devin@AEM]

I haven't posted anywhere in this thread that someone should go with AEM. My defense of the product has been the extent of it.

NEVER IN MY LIFE have I posted or publically mentioned to ANYONE a negative remark about some of the other engine management manufacturers mentioned. Have I been mad beyond belief in the past when I've tuned other systems and the box fails - absolutely! It happens.

I have always supported the line of thinking that you should buy what your tuner of choice is comforatable with. I've never had to or will ever "push" the AEM product on someone. You must have good tuning support regardless of system. I would recommend searching out and investigating your tuner options before buying a system in every case.

Is the AEM perfect for everyone? The answer is no. Is the AEM box failure free? The answer is no. We are an electronics company that has a rate of failure not unlike any other electronics manufacturer - automotive related or otherwise.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

I haven't posted anywhere in this thread that someone should go with AEM. My defense of the product has been the extent of it.

NEVER IN MY LIFE have I posted or publically mentioned to ANYONE a negative remark about some of the other engine management manufacturers mentioned. Have I been mad beyond belief in the past when I've tuned other systems and the box fails - absolutely! It happens.

I have always supported the line of thinking that you should buy what your tuner of choice is comforatable with. I've never had to or will ever "push" the AEM product on someone. You must have good tuning support regardless of system. I would recommend searching out and investigating your tuner options before buying a system in every case.

Is the AEM perfect for everyone? The answer is no. Is the AEM box failure free? The answer is no. We are an electronics company that has a rate of failure not unlike any other electronics manufacturer - automotive related or otherwise.

That is absolutely NOT what was written in your first post. True, you did not push a particular EMS over another, but to say all you did was defend your product is completely false. If you re-read your first post strictly on content it is clear that you explicitly attack another tuning company. Here is the summary of it:

In your third line you specifically state that Factor X's take on a subject is "crap". You then state that they have no tuning background or skills. You then proceed to accuse them of deceiving their customers and using their money for their own purposes. Finally you claim that they lay blame for their failures on other companies.

That's some pretty malicious and damning talk of another tuning company and you say that it's all under the guise of defending yourself. Nice try in playing the “victim” card, but in your first post you were clearly the aggressor.