Bogus information provided by another Prime member

[Devin@AEM]

Regarding a post earlier today from RacerX-21:

It's such a shame you choose to post such irresponsible information to the community.

What's funny is how much this sounds like FactorX's previous lines of crap on the subject - blaming failures on everything other than the core root of the problem (the person sitting behind the keyboard). I keep thinking back to a turbo NSX a while ago that had a MAJOR block failure (company is mentioned in this thread) - fortunately I was able to connect to the EMS post-wreckage only to find huge timing advance numbers blanketed throughout the RPM range in fairly moderate 12 - 14 PSI boost regions (the boost levels at which the car was running). The computer will do what you tell it to do.

Chewed up bearings on the previous build were blamed on everything but the tuning. The fact that the block vomited chunks of metal from the bottom end certainly couldn't be the result of nasty and irresponsible tuning techniques. It's nice to take a look at those calibrations from time to time to remind me what NOT to do to an engine.

Here is what I see has happened...

1) Shop brand X has no real tuning background or solid experience.
2) Shop brand X builds some cars and unfortunately uses the customer's wallet for training purposes.
3) Shop brand X blows some engines up.
4) Shop brand X likes to tell customers that it was the engine management’s fault.
5) Shop brand X starts to learn just a little bit about tuning. Get’s training from other good tuners.
6) Shop brand X learns to use other engine management products.
7) Shop brand X decides to blame “the other guy” for previous failures. Easy to do since they’ve learned to tune a little better now and can push other brands.

Your claims are completely bogus and ignorant to say the least. By the way, your "spark deviation" theory is a load of crap.

My personal project runs the same exact NSX EMS by the way.

That question is more complicated then it appears!

The easy answer is about $350 but the tune quality will depend on your local talent.

And your definition of “Street able”. To some that means the car will start and will get you home. To others that means perfect “Drivability” typical of the hundreds of hours dedicated to tuning at the Honda factory. 100 x $100 = buy your own dyno.

I think the $600 figures seen in the replies are related to most owners needing to go back to the tuner as soon as they run into the first new condition that causes the car to be hard starting, or stall at an intersection. Every temperature change, altitude change or barometer change, etc. can cause a different map requirement and why it takes hundreds of hours from the factory to get you car to run so flawlessly.

Another variable is the quality of the new components like sensors; blow off valves, or intercoolers, etc. If these parts aren’t tested, good quality and proven, then your conditions will be variable and difficult for the ECU to chase and stay consistent. Part choice is part of those hundreds of hours dedicated by the OE manufacturer.

Engine safety is another notable subject: Most tuners learned from a previous tuner and we now have an industry overloaded with aftermarket ECU’s and tuners that send your car home somewhere between 11:1 and 12.5:1. I have been meaning to write an article about this and maybe this is the time.

12:1 is safe for the tuner so that the broad strokes of their tune doesn’t get your engine in trouble in future untested conditions. This is safe but far from that perfect “drivability” that Honda strides for. The main problem is that 12:1 is so far from stoich (Perfect burn) that you are dumping raw fuel. Much of that raw fuel washes the oil off your cylinder walls and quickly deteriorates your ring seat. This causes blow by that deteriorates your ring seat even faster. If you have ever worked on your car and got grease and oil deep in the crevasse of your hands, what is the perfect solvent to wash away that oil? Gas! The over rich condition besides the deterioration of you ring seat is getting in your oil (Smell it) and why many of you are spinning bearings.

The NSX runs at stoich or around 14.6:1 and will even peak off throttle at 16:1+. No average tuner would let that out the shop door but that’s how it should be until under a heavy load. The other (maybe) less important part of “drivability” is fuel mileage and emissions standards. Both can be achieved, my 600 whp car gets near OE fuel mileage on the highway, typical street dyno tunes can cut your mileage in half. There are so many variables with “Drivability” tuning, for example; Mike at FactorX uses a secondary map sensor to compensate for the drastic altitude changes seen in his region. Your average expert AEM tuner knows full throttle and how to get it to idle after only a few trips back to the dyno.

SO I stand with my $350 until you realize you want more and will spend until your satisfied or decide to settle.

The last issue is “severe duty”, or if you track the car, how hard you track the car, and the conditions of that day and location. If the AEM is you choice and based on your post it is… then “severe duty” should include engine-building costs. I could hardly impress on you how many problems have been caused by the spark deviation and the flaky noise issues that cause faulty sensor outputs. AEM has chosen not to address this problem, they do recognize it but are not willing to do the engineering changes because of the small NSX market. Before any AEM experts decide to retort… first talk to AEM about the problem and they will confirm the problems (If you sound like you know what your talking about). Another simple test for any AEM/NSX owners- Start your car and just let it idle, look at your laptop and watch the live temperature or a number of other sensors like throttle position. Even at idle they bounce all over the place, in some cars I have seen bouncing as much as 10-20 degrees at idle! Do you know what a variation like that does to your map? The NSX harness makes a lot of noise but the OE ECU can handle it and so can other aftermarket brands. I know it’s political suicide to bad mouth but I have seen well over $100,000 worth of damage at multiple shops directly related to the AEM/NSX combination… so the comments are warranted and good advise for the NSX community. If you beat your car and are not just show, then buck up for a more expensive aftermarket ECU. Sorry AEM but if you didn’t cost us so much money or even solved your own issues then I wouldn’t be spilling.

 

[RacerX-21]

Nice try Devin-

These problems are not isolated to only a few shops or just the NSX for that matter, the problems are ones that I have personally seen and more of these problems can be listed.

Leave FactorX out of this, I personally don’t like the company that your working for because they chose to market a known bad product. And I can see how your judgment would be biased as an employee. I’m also aware that your likely doing everything you can to help buyers but I don’t think there is anything you can personally do to help.

Two direct statements-
1) How many other tuners have complained and how many of those cases have you investigated? Why would you think that none of them are legitimate?
2) Address the noise issue (Don’t forget to go outside and do the test at idle) maybe your just not aware of it.

Please answer these issues to yourself and then if you want to get specific and start name dropping, and I must say that I don’t, I can quote Pro Racing tuners who have seen these problems, reputable well known shops that have seen these problems, and even AEM employees that have confirmed the problems that your denying (with details of how it was handled internally with AEM management). Maybe you don’t know about them and maybe you do, I will just assume that you don’t and focus my beef with AEM.

Damn right I’m pissed AEM took time and money from me and people I know. And someone new to the game asked about the subject… he had a right to know.

 

[Ponyboy]

Very interested in this discussion (read: would like it to be a discussion) and the validity of the issues Rob brings up. I'm in the process of the SOS stroker engine build and the AEM EMS is part of the equation. Since the car is intended to be on track 80% of the time (severe duty) and the engine work is not cheap, reliability is of utmost importance.

Devin, can you specifically discuss Rob's points of contention?
Rob, have you brought these issues to AEM's forum for discussion?

Look forward to an informative and healthy "talk."

 

[Devin@AEM]

It's very obvious that RacerX-21, regardless of what is shown here using FACTS and not opinions, will clearly NEVER leave his side of the fence on this matter.

Let's start with FACTS:

Here is a screen shot of a NSX logfile from my laptop C: drive. The data shown here was internally logged at our fastest sampling rates available (250 samples/second - Engine Speed, Throttle, Engine Load, O2 #1, Injector Duty and 31.25 samples/second - Air Temp, Coolant Temp)

The box used in this test is an AEM NSX EMS P/N 30-1002 Serial #0076.

When zooming in on and expanding the data, I observed the following variances while viewing at a 0.1 second screen width (I would be happy to provide additional data views if needed).

Engine Speed - insignificant
Throttle - .87 %
Engine Load - .28 PSI
Injector Duty - insignificant
O2#1 - insignificant
Air Temp - 1.8° F
Coolant Temp - 1.8° F

So please intelligently discuss the noise issue. I have also seen noisy EMS traces and every single time have been able to address and fix the issue by checking for and improving harness related ground and power connections.

As for the second direct statement, please let me know how many tuners have complained of this. If you don't feel comfortable dropping names pre your post, I will address each one privately with you offline.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

Don't want to get in to the mix, but thought I'd share what we've seen.

We've seen the same electrical interference causing the sensors to show erratic behavior like you've seen Rob. However, everytime we've found issues with grounding that have caused this. The NSX being an aluminum chassis, and most of the cars being 15+ years old does not help - accentuating grounding issues that may be at fault. I also believe that most of the cars with high horsepower builds have had engine work requiring engine & electrical harness removal which results in either grounds not being replaced, being corroded, or not fastened correctly. We've been at fault of this ourselves - the NSX uses a LOT of grounds due to the aluminum chassis.

This also thread also reminds me that the wide band sensors also require clean electrical connections to work properly. On a recent car we completed, noise issues that were noticed once electrical draw went up were corrected by better connections.

NSX is somewhat unique in that being aluminum and most cars being 10-15 years old requires extra attention to detail to make sure the engine management works correctly.

We stand behind the AEM 100%.

cheers,
-- Chris

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

In response to Devins statements:

1) Shop brand X has no real tuning background or solid experience.

Here is Mikey’s background. Been tuning for over a decade, originally worked with Koyama from JUN, then further trained by Jon Kuroyama at HKS, became the 1st authorized Pectel (Parent Company PI research) tuner on the west coast, tuned at the time the nation’s fastest NHRA Lexus (Area51 SC300 drag car), built and tuned the world’s fastest Civic, futher trained and certified by George from MoTeC, successfully converted the B-series Honda motor and Pectel system to SCORE International and BOTD off road racing series, recently re-tuned the world’s fastest Civic again to break another record against the AEM peeps. (Funny story there the AEM in the car was malfunctioning, the head AEM guy came to our camp configured it, we made our pass with yet another data failure, the result just try it again and see…) Numerous “other” three letter EMS certifications not worth mentioning:biggrin:


2) Shop brand X builds some cars and unfortunately uses the customer's wallet for training purposes.

I rarely talk about it because I do not feel there is a need to, but I don’t need to use anyone’s wallet for training purposes. Been retired since I was 31years old. I just leant Mikey my wallet, bought above five NSXs and a few motors for him to play with and build me one fast NSX.


3) Shop brand X blows some engines up.

That is for sure, thanks to the bogus AEM EMS that we used in the very beginning:tongue:


4) Shop brand X likes to tell customers that it was the engine management’s fault.

Shop brands A-Z have had this issue, just search the plethora of other automotive forums to find out.


5) Shop brand X starts to learn just a little bit about tuning. Get’s training from other good tuners.

That is what I respect most about Mikey he is always striving to learn more and more from others that have more experience in each particular make and model. He is not conceited enough or close minded to others approaches to performace.

6) Shop brand X learns to use other engine management products.

As mentioned above, Mikey likes to keep an open mind when approaching each vehicle and its goals.


7) Shop brand X decides to blame “the other guy” for previous failures. Easy to do since they’ve learned to tune a little better now and can push other brands.

Mike has no problem admitting when he made a mistake and has proven to go the extra mile when he does. Believe me there were many mistakes along the way of R&D that cost me a few dollars, the primary being our choice in the intial EMS. It is always good to explore all of your options when looking for a good EMS, not just take some guy that works for a company’s biased opinion.

8) In our opinion and experience, the MoTeC unit has proven itself to be the hands down best for race use. Been running the system flawlessly for the past four years on our NSX. For the street the HKS F-Con Vpro would be our hands down favorite. Extremely stable, passes OBDII test, and has the best “tuner” support in the business. The current AEM seems to work fine for our street users, the dedicated track cars have had several issues.

9) Those that know me, know that I am an honest straight up guy and have no hidden agenda or cause to promote something that I did not believe in. Btw, I am not an owner of Factor X and have never received ANY compensation while I was an owner. Just the love of the game:smile:

 

[RacerX-21]

Don't want to get in to the mix, but thought I'd share what we've seen.

We've seen the same electrical interference causing the sensors to show erratic behavior like you've seen Rob. However, everytime we've found issues with grounding that have caused this. The NSX being an aluminum chassis, and most of the cars being 15+ years old does not help - accentuating grounding issues that may be at fault. I also believe that most of the cars with high horsepower builds have had engine work requiring engine & electrical harness removal which results in either grounds not being replaced, being corroded, or not fastened correctly. We've been at fault of this ourselves - the NSX uses a LOT of grounds due to the aluminum chassis.

This also thread also reminds me that the wide band sensors also require clean electrical connections to work properly. On a recent car we completed, noise issues that were noticed once electrical draw went up were corrected by better connections.

NSX is somewhat unique in that being aluminum and most cars being 10-15 years old requires extra attention to detail to make sure the engine management works correctly.

We stand behind the AEM 100%.

cheers,
-- Chris

The only time I expressed my disapproval on the AEM forum was back when I only knew about one problem. That problem was the lack of coil drivers the AEM supports. The AEM sold for the NSX has only 4 coil drivers, and since the NSX uses 6 coils the AEM runs a wasted spark routine. The AEM is set up to use 3 of the coil drivers to hit 2 of the coils at the same time. Each coil will charge and release twice per 4-stroke cycle. What I found is that the NSX coils weren’t designed for this load or this refresh rate, it’s the equivalent of running at 16,000+ RPM. I would see a miss around 7000 to 8000 RPM. High compression or boosted applications would increase or exaggerate the problem because a stronger spark is required. New coils might also help but that’s a big expense for a maybe. Of course I contacted AEM and they let me know they knew about the problem from the development with the AEM Papadakis car. They suggested using MSD coil enhancement to help the problem (Like they did). I did implement the MSD DIS-4 and it took a lot of R&D because 1) the AEM wouldn’t put out the signal that the MSD was looking for so you had to get it from the ignition module. 2) You had to make your own coil harness or cut up the OE harness. This sucked and defiantly wasn’t a “Plug and play solution” so I voiced my opinion that AEM should let their customers know their deficiencies before they sell. The response was (and I’m going by memory) I’m off base and that not only do they not have this problem, turbo Supra’s with more boost run in Wasted Spark and they don’t have problems. On the phone they said one thing but in public it was a different story… so I never bothered with the forum again. Since then AEM tried to build their own coil enhancement because of the problems but that had even worse problems, and I hear their working on the addition of more coil drivers.

In our case if we don’t get more coil drivers we need to swap the coils with something made to handle this load… similar to what the AIM car was doing with the MSD coils.

Don’t get me wrong AIM has better software and more options then most of the higher dollar ECU’s, and many electronic companies have reliability issues during growth. Hell even MSD still has reliability issues. That’s why they run (2) ignitions in Nextel cars. It’s the company ethics and their lack of product accountability that I have the problem with. Talk about your problems so that the consumer is informed before they buy, and don’t discount people when they discover a problem and maybe you will benefit from their solutions.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Ken,

I can appreciate the fact that Mikey has recently learned some very key tuning fundamentals and will gladly back up those statements as I can compare FactorX configured cal files from early summer 2005 and then summer of 2006. You can clearly see a positive difference in style and execution - I mean a huge difference. Someone (Mike or otherwise) has obviously learned that you have to be much more careful with items like timing advance as an example. Jason and others from AEM tried to help Mikey with tuning advice early on in the relationship, but finally gave up.

Mike...
Let me comment on this then...since I was involved from the very beginning. While I can't remember what # of engine you were on at the time. I do distinctly recall a silver NSX in AEM's parking lot that had a new engine in it. You drove the car to L.A. to have us look at the problem you were having. I distintly remember the timing being advanced 10 degrees after you sync'd it incorrectly with a dial back light. I also remember coming out to your facility to do some further training with you on a red car (with a new motor if memory serves) that you were having all kinds of idle/throttle response issues, which took me all of about 10 minutes to sort out. For the record, the hardware hasn't changed AT ALL since day one for the AEM NSX box. The Firmware for the NSX has not changed since day one. While features have been added, the operation of the engine controls have NOT changed. So....if it works today (which it does), then it worked then (which it did). Blaming the EMS for a learning curve (which you clearly had) doesn't change the fact that the engines you lost, were lost only becuase of a lack of understanding, and or improper tuning!

You can fluff up Mikey's tuning background all you want. The fact is, if he has become a more proficient tuner in the last 6 - 12 months, less damage will happen due to profficient tuning and not changes in equipment in this case.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Rob,

Do you remember the name of the individual that you spoke to at AEM. If not, no problem, but I would like to have a conversation with them to see what the heck they were talking about regarding the waste spark configuration.

The NSX that I have personally posted on Prime about from time to time runs daily at 550 - 600 WHP pump gas levels (confirmed on several brands of chassis dynamometers). I will soon be turning the boost up considerably and will absolutely be honest with my results on Prime if I see any coil saturation /miss issues that come up at elevated pressures. Until then, the car has ZERO ignition issues on 100% bone stock 91-94 coils, 91-94 engine harness, no ignition amplification devices whatsoever, and is running the same exact 30-1002 box that everyone in the NSX community has run. I can tell you there are current NSX projects tuned in excess of that HP level soon to be shared with the community with the SAME parts described above.

I've provided support and have talked to owners of many many road and drag race cars using the same waste spark configuration on stock ignition coils at elevated HP levels. Every single PNP EMS app we have with the exception of the 30-1900U Universal and 30-1902U Dodge Hemi box running more than 5 coils runs this configuration. There are thousands and thousands of these boxes in the field running this way. To be honest, the NSX is behind the times with regards to HP per Liter - this isn't a new concept.

I apologize on behalf of our team if you were provided misguided support at one or more times and will be happy to track down the source if you can give me a name (offline or online). If you were dissatisfied with our company's services or product, I will be happy to help resolve the situation regardless of whether or not you run AEM products again.

The only time I expressed my disapproval on the AEM forum was back when I only knew about one problem. That problem was the lack of coil drivers the AEM supports. The AEM sold for the NSX has only 4 coil drivers, and since the NSX uses 6 coils the AEM runs a wasted spark routine. The AEM is set up to use 3 of the coil drivers to hit 2 of the coils at the same time. Each coil will charge and release twice per 4-stroke cycle. What I found is that the NSX coils weren’t designed for this load or this refresh rate, it’s the equivalent of running at 16,000+ RPM. I would see a miss around 7000 to 8000 RPM. High compression or boosted applications would increase or exaggerate the problem because a stronger spark is required. New coils might also help but that’s a big expense for a maybe. Of course I contacted AEM and they let me know they knew about the problem from the development with the AEM Papadakis car. They suggested using MSD coil enhancement to help the problem (Like they did). I did implement the MSD DIS-4 and it took a lot of R&D because 1) the AEM wouldn’t put out the signal that the MSD was looking for so you had to get it from the ignition module. 2) You had to make your own coil harness or cut up the OE harness. This sucked and defiantly wasn’t a “Plug and play solution” so I voiced my opinion that AEM should let their customers know their deficiencies before they sell. The response was (and I’m going by memory) I’m off base and that not only do they not have this problem, turbo Supra’s with more boost run in Wasted Spark and they don’t have problems. On the phone they said one thing but in public it was a different story… so I never bothered with the forum again. Since then AEM tried to build their own coil enhancement because of the problems but that had even worse problems, and I hear their working on the addition of more coil drivers.

In our case if we don’t get more coil drivers we need to swap the coils with something made to handle this load… similar to what the AIM car was doing with the MSD coils.

Don’t get me wrong AIM has better software and more options then most of the higher dollar ECU’s, and many electronic companies have reliability issues during growth. Hell even MSD still has reliability issues. That’s why they run (2) ignitions in Nextel cars. It’s the company ethics and their lack of product accountability that I have the problem with. Talk about your problems so that the consumer is informed before they buy, and don’t discount people when they discover a problem and maybe you will benefit from their solutions.

 

[ediddynsx]

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Ken,

You can fluff up Mikey's tuning background all you want. The fact is, if he has become a more proficient tuner in the last 6 - 12 months, less damage will happen due to profficient tuning and not changes in equipment in this case.

No need to fluff, just illustrating his experience as you called it into question. I sure hope he has become a more proficient tuner in the past year! Stagnation is the enemy. Are you saying there has been no changes to the AEM EMS in the past four years? If so, that is quite an achievement as I have been in the software/hardware field for many years and have yet to see that accomplishment with multi million dollar budgets and a slew of engineers.

Btw, its great to see an employee with such vigor and dedication to its employer. AEM is very lucky to have found you.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Break out the beer

 

[ediddynsx]

Break out the beer

 

[btcog82]

+1

I was a lil' lost to begin with, but I thought both companies/people were pretty reputable and have heard nothing but good things about both:frown:

 

[RacerX-21]

Don't want to get in to the mix, but thought I'd share what we've seen.

We've seen the same electrical interference causing the sensors to show erratic behavior like you've seen Rob. However, everytime we've found issues with grounding that have caused this. The NSX being an aluminum chassis, and most of the cars being 15+ years old does not help - accentuating grounding issues that may be at fault. I also believe that most of the cars with high horsepower builds have had engine work requiring engine & electrical harness removal which results in either grounds not being replaced, being corroded, or not fastened correctly. We've been at fault of this ourselves - the NSX uses a LOT of grounds due to the aluminum chassis.

This also thread also reminds me that the wide band sensors also require clean electrical connections to work properly. On a recent car we completed, noise issues that were noticed once electrical draw went up were corrected by better connections.

NSX is somewhat unique in that being aluminum and most cars being 10-15 years old requires extra attention to detail to make sure the engine management works correctly.

We stand behind the AEM 100%.

cheers,
-- Chris

Thanks for chiming in with this problem Chris; I didn’t want to post her until I had pretty pictures to show examples of problems.

Yes the NSX has a notably noisy electrical system and the age doesn’t help, but don’t discount the AEM until you here the facts from AEM. The OE ECU doesn’t have a ground issue and either do the other aftermarket ECU’s. We always ground the engine and have experimented with grounding the heads and the coils. In fact we have in one case put so many grounding straps that we were at risk of creating a ground loop. We happened to have three NSX’s all with AEM engine management. One N/A, one BBSC, and one CTSC. All had the issue. On two occasions we called AEM to address the issue, one time with the help of a more influential insider. The un-official AEM response in Engineering was that they know about the problem and know of solutions, and have even submitted an Engineering Change Notice but it was over ruled because the NSX market didn’t warrant the expense for the change! The second call was the day we had tested all three NSX’s to find the same problem, and swapped the AEM units to find the severity of the problem would vary in the same car depending on the AEM unit. This call was made when the person we talked to in Engineering was not in the office, so we got tech. That person told us that he and AEM knew of the problem and they had no solution to fix the problem. When asked what they wanted us to do they told us that we should buy the generic AEM and make our own harness adaptor. It supposedly has a better circuit to deal with the NSX noise. Chris, call them quickly and see if you get the same answer. The point is that it’s the AEM’s ability or lack of it in dealing with the NSX noise. Oh, the N/A car never had a single harness mod. I have since heard that the generic AEM has the same problem, not to mention… why would I want to keep giving AEM money? The cost of all the AEM units is the least of my loss related to their product.

 

[dynomike]

I still go back to what Devin said it is the guy behind the keyboard is what will make the car run well or not. The cars that I have tuned with the AEM EMS start and drive flawless everyday. Now I have retuned some cars by people that were told well that is just how the AEM is and after I got done with the car the thing was perfect. I agree it is hard to tune an AEM system perfect when you do not know what you are doing. In my opinion it is way easier to tune a motec system if you are a novice. AEM has a hard way of labeling what everything does and this is what separates the back yard AEM tuners from the competent AEM tuners. The reason I am so partial to the AEM system is that you have full control over every aspect of the ecu.

I does not matter what ECU is in the car if the person tuning it does not have the proper knowledge of what he is tuning

 

[RacerX-21]

Devin,

I’m sorry you’re involved. I even heard you came to see me at SEMA to help with my problem. I didn’t seek you out because I can’t afford to keep working with this product. Believe me I welcome help but it’s too late for me, I have tried with AEM for years. Understand that it’s not you that I have a gripe with; in fact you have been helpful on Prime. But your just going to have to trust that I have been down this road with AEM maybe before you started working there and they are as described contrary to your helpful nature. As you can see, some of these problems are not isolated to one person’s misinterpretations and others will only be problems under severe load that many will never achieve. Not just dyno pulls at 600+ that’s easy on an engine. I have simply seen enough problems that can’t be tuned out, and I can’t afford to keep trying. Nor do I want anyone I know to have these problems. I can shoot the same statistics of super cars I have built, and can even claim life spans of multiple years. But the first time under really heavy load on the track with slicks and a driver that doesn’t hold anything back, and I get one burnt piston with no detection of detonation in any other cylinder, no spark failure or indication of fuel failure, and no reason to believe the map is at fault. I then see sensor readings jumping 20 degrees, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if the brain doesn’t know what its doing it cant properly do what it’s asked. This is one example, I have examples with different tuners, and different builds but the result is always the same detonation in only one cylinder. I think I have described three separate issues today all with their own relative problems.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

I still go back to what Devin said it is the guy behind the keyboard is what will make the car run well or not. The cars that I have tuned with the AEM EMS start and drive flawless everyday. Now I have retuned some cars by people that were told well that is just how the AEM is and after I got done with the car the thing was perfect. I agree it is hard to tune an AEM system perfect when you do not know what you are doing. In my opinion it is way easier to tune a motec system if you are a novice. AEM has a hard way of labeling what everything does and this is what separates the back yard AEM tuners from the competent AEM tuners. The reason I am so partial to the AEM system is that you have full control over every aspect of the ecu.

I does not matter what ECU is in the car if the person tuning it does not have the proper knowledge of what he is tuning

Amen to that. The hardest part of the MoTeC is setting up the crip angle unless you happen to pick up the car from another shop that has already done the work. Other than that the UI is very easy to understand and a God send when tuning for competition use due to its stability.

Keep on innovating!

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Devin,

I’m sorry you’re involved. I even heard you came to see me at SEMA to help with my problem. I didn’t seek you out because I can’t afford to keep working with this product. Believe me I welcome help but it’s too late for me, I have tried with AEM for years. Understand that it’s not you that I have a gripe with; in fact you have been helpful on Prime. But your just going to have to trust that I have been down this road with AEM maybe before you started working there and they are as described contrary to your helpful nature. As you can see, some of these problems are not isolated to one person’s misinterpretations and others will only be problems under severe load that many will never achieve. Not just dyno pulls at 600+ that’s easy on an engine. I have simply seen enough problems that can’t be tuned out, and I can’t afford to keep trying. Nor do I want anyone I know to have these problems. I can shoot the same statistics of super cars I have built, and can even claim life spans of multiple years. But the first time under really heavy load on the track with slicks and a driver that doesn’t hold anything back, and I get one burnt piston with no detection of detonation in any other cylinder, no spark failure or indication of fuel failure, and no reason to believe the map is at fault. I then see sensor readings jumping 20 degrees, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that if the brain doesn’t know what its doing it cant properly do what it’s asked. This is one example, I have examples with different tuners, and different builds but the result is always the same detonation in only one cylinder. I think I have described three separate issues today all with their own relative problems.

Anyone see the movie Deja Vu?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I still go back to what Devin said it is the guy behind the keyboard is what will make the car run well or not. The cars that I have tuned with the AEM EMS start and drive flawless everyday. Now I have retuned some cars by people that were told well that is just how the AEM is and after I got done with the car the thing was perfect. I agree it is hard to tune an AEM system perfect when you do not know what you are doing. In my opinion it is way easier to tune a motec system if you are a novice. AEM has a hard way of labeling what everything does and this is what separates the back yard AEM tuners from the competent AEM tuners. The reason I am so partial to the AEM system is that you have full control over every aspect of the ecu.

I does not matter what ECU is in the car if the person tuning it does not have the proper knowledge of what he is tuning

Mike, not trying to add fire to the flames, but since this is an open discussion I'd like to recap the first experience I've ever had.

I spent three and a half hours with a very worried owner in his driveway the other week here in Seattle- 1am with a hair dryer and blankets warming up the CTSC high boost engine you AEM tuned on Kenny's car. It refused to cold start at 40 degrees despite trying absolutely everything from chargers to throttle position to checking spark, fuel, and anything else I could think of.

Moments before we just about threw in the towel or went for a laptop with a serial to peer at fuel enrichment tables or wondered about bad grounds, we finally agreed it was the AEM tune, and got the block & throttle body warmed up enough... and it finally went so we could move it inside. A quick search on google tells me this is hardly unique for AEM being in the warm south, and I don't need to see the receipts for this NSX to know that some serious money was spent tuning it at your shop- more than most.

That said, I see now why the ignition was never turned off even once on the trip back. I would never care to call into question anyone's intentions or qualifications, but stand alone tuning- and the driveability compromises & risks that coincide with it are what they are- and claiming a 'perfect tune' is a bad way to set customers expectations, especially anal street guys that don't know what they want.

Again, none with standing... please don't interpret any of this as being negative, I'm not down with all the finger pointing.... overall I'm sure it was a first rate job you did to the best of your ability. Also, I do think push back here is needed.... as customers need to be willing to be told and accept compromises/risks given their very limited tuning budgets.... and in fact most on prime would agree that if a bad cold start was the only thing... hell even if you lived in Alaska that is an obviously acceptable trade-off for the awesome acceleration/feel of 400rwhp when everything is working properly in the summer. Overall it so far seems ok, time will tell, and it is btw among the fastest CTSC NSX I've been in recently that's still in street trim. But in the end stand alone tuning just is what it is, and 'AEM perfect tuning' just doesn't exist unless someone here on this thread got my winning mega millions ticket.

 

[Flexer]

Alot of good discussion going on here. Keep it coming!

J. R.

 

[jdnsx]

Ken,

I can appreciate the fact that Mikey has recently learned some very key tuning fundamentals and will gladly back up those statements as I can compare FactorX configured cal files from early summer 2005 and then summer of 2006. You can clearly see a positive difference in style and execution - I mean a huge difference. Someone (Mike or otherwise) has obviously learned that you have to be much more careful with items like timing advance as an example. Jason and others from AEM tried to help Mikey with tuning advice early on in the relationship, but finally gave up.

You can fluff up Mikey's tuning background all you want. The fact is, if he has become a more proficient tuner in the last 6 - 12 months, less damage will happen due to profficient tuning and not changes in equipment in this case.

I don't take sides on events that I did not personally witness and I think that all the parties in this thread are amazing in the tuning/performance profession.

But.....I must be lucky. Since Mikey was here to tune my car I have seen him called a "crazy Hawaiian tuner", a "rookie tuner", a "destructive tuner", a race only tuner" and so on.

But let me tell you what I witnessed. A tuner who took the time to get to know everything about my set up and goals that had NEVER been achieved before on an OBDII NSX.
He used the HKS V-PRO and had the car cold starting on the first crank doing the initial tuning on 40-degree mornings.
He carefully watched timing and fuel and stayed more conservative than I would have. I had a lot of confidence in my intercooler and he suggested we let it go through a hot summer before we programmed for the last bit of power. I am glad I waited.
For 15 hours he worked on CEL’s, drivability, part throttle, hot start, cold start, DBW, cruise control, decel timing and many more. He programmed fixes for OBDII problems that had never been done before on an NSX.
The car was just at NSXPO where many people beat the hell out of it for 3000 miles and the only problems I had were some odd belt wear and needing to lean out the wide band AFR slightly while cruising 900 miles down and 900 back. The wide band was installed one week before XPO just so we could use the long trip for info.

I know there are a lot of great systems out there and I may have gotten lucky but I don't think all that happens by luck. I have the perfect aftermarket ECU and tune, the one you can't even tell is operating your car.

Joe

 

[Devin@AEM]

Thank you for posting that JDNSX! This reiterates that using a tuner that is very familiar with a particular system(s) will net great results.

 

[Devin@AEM]

One serious question for Rob:

Please be honest...Does this have anything to do with the fact the AEM would not sponsor your NSX race car project or provide you with the EMS that you requested some time ago?

This isn't personal is it? Your sponsorship proposal to AEM reads very differently than your words here on Prime.

Just trying to find the facts.

 

[Ponyboy]

Rob, would you mind disclosing the positive characteristics you gave the AEM EMS in your sponsorship proposal? Were there specifics to the EMS you presented as wanting AEM sponsorship?