At Last NEW NSX

[Ponyboy]

Top heavy management and out of touch with the public. Honda pay attention, I'd hate to see you end up that way!!!

I really wouldn't say that Honda is top heavy management wise. However, I would say that they are definitely out of touch with the sport enthusiast crowd. Which is a shame b/c they had so much critical mass at the beginning of the "import movement." All they had to do was keep pumping the Type R line with models worthy of the name.

And really, outside of bringing back the NSX and S2K type cars, that's all they still need to do. All, of course, IMHO.

 

[WingZ]

Hey Wing,

Your right that test mule at the ring would have been a beast with the V10 or even a V8 like their running well when they were allowed to race it. We'll just have to hope and wait to see if they are going to do anything again.

Tim it hurts so bad just to think about it. I mean the car just needed tuning other than that it was ready to go:frown:

 

[tbromley]

Tim it hurts so bad just to think about it. I mean the car just needed tuning other than that it was ready to go:frown:

Well at least they raced a variant of it - that's something. Say what are the stats - how did they do with it during the season? Was it a sucess? I didn't follow it.

It does seem such a shame - what i really want to see is the interior...right....I mean what did it look like? Bet it had a different radio - if it had one...lol.

 

[Honcho]

The more I see of this situation, the more I think the NSX was really just a one-time deal for Honda. The sad truth is that they never intended to become a sports-minded company like Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari or Lambo- which are low-volume, high-price makes. Instead, it is clear Honda wants to be Ford, GM and Toyota. Sports cars simply cannot provide the margins necessary to justify their inclusion in model lineups where the bottom line and shareholders are of primary concern. Like Perry says, the accountants are in charge at Honda now, not the engineers. Like Ford and GM of the 70's and 80's we will see a gradual decline in quality as cheaper parts are increasingly used in the cars in order to chase profit. The Civic ditching the double wishbone is a good early example. They quickly put a bullet in the head of the NSX and S2000 as well, since to an accountant those models were a gaudy and horrifying money pit. Same with F1 and now ALMS. I am amazed the HSV made it as far as it did, but in the end it was no different. If it wasn't such a national pride issue, I am sure the accountants would scrap the JGTC program too.

If we see a return of sports models at Honda, they will be at best "sporty" compromise designs or even just trim levels. Look at the CR-Z. That is the direction we are heading with Honda. The supposed new hybrid sports car will be more of the same. The days of no-compromise sports cars and the "eternal sportsmind" are done, I'm afraid. I watched the NSX farewell Best Motoring yesterday and I didn't need to understand Japanese to understand the looks on the presenters/designers faces. Tsuchiya seemed partcularly upset/pissed. All the more reason to hold onto our cars. The NSX is probablly the last no-compromise car to come from Honda.

 

[docjohn]

"for the eternal commutemind"

 

[Black 94 #400]

"Like Ford and GM of the 70's and 80's we will see a gradual decline in quality as cheaper parts are increasingly used in the cars in order to chase profit. The Civic ditching the double wishbone is a good early example."

Well said emphasis on "quality" I've noticed it on the newer honda's, it reminds me of GM, of the 80's and 90's. it's real shame, blame the bean counters

 

[WingZ]

The more I see of this situation, the more I think the NSX was really just a one-time deal for Honda. The sad truth is that they never intended to become a sports-minded company like Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari or Lambo- which are low-volume, high-price makes. Instead, it is clear Honda wants to be Ford, GM and Toyota. Sports cars simply cannot provide the margins necessary to justify their inclusion in model lineups where the bottom line and shareholders are of primary concern. Like Perry says, the accountants are in charge at Honda now, not the engineers. Like Ford and GM of the 70's and 80's we will see a gradual decline in quality as cheaper parts are increasingly used in the cars in order to chase profit. The Civic ditching the double wishbone is a good early example. They quickly put a bullet in the head of the NSX and S2000 as well, since to an accountant those models were a gaudy and horrifying money pit. Same with F1 and now ALMS. I am amazed the HSV made it as far as it did, but in the end it was no different. If it wasn't such a national pride issue, I am sure the accountants would scrap the JGTC program too.

If we see a return of sports models at Honda, they will be at best "sporty" compromise designs or even just trim levels. Look at the CR-Z. That is the direction we are heading with Honda. The supposed new hybrid sports car will be more of the same. The days of no-compromise sports cars and the "eternal sportsmind" are done, I'm afraid. I watched the NSX farewell Best Motoring yesterday and I didn't need to understand Japanese to understand the looks on the presenters/designers faces. Tsuchiya seemed partcularly upset/pissed. All the more reason to hold onto our cars. The NSX is probablly the last no-compromise car to come from Honda.

Absolutely right as that's the first thing Honda owners say on the new cars "cheaper interiors and hard plastics"

Fuqui was intent on making Honda world class and made so many decisions to do so. Acura was going to get it's first rwd and V8 platforms. The RL was in midst of a truly remarkable make over. But at the beginning of the 08 meltdown Honda just scrapped EVERYTHING. All the money invested in platforms that were going to come out was lost as they went to the extreme to cut costs.

I'm glad they survived but pretty much everyone did and everyone else came out with sports models plus made gains in fuel economy. Honda decided to revamp towards fuel economy and decided to do "Smart Luxury". Smart luxury idea would have been to kill Acura. I mean they upgraded Honda products to the point the extra money for Acuras doesn't make much sense.

Acura and Honda is pretty much like 90's Chevy and Cadillac. Only difference became badges and grills. Did they hire old GM execs/accountants

The internal struggle by enthusiasts at Honda is becoming well known. Let's hope they at least get one car through.

 

[Honcho]

Yeah I know there is a core group of engineers and execs at Honda that are banging their fists against the glass and hoping someone hears them. I don't know if it will happen though. After all, Ito was a big part of the NSX program and he isn't doing much. I bet the accountants have him scared s#$tless to try anything that doesn't generate maximum profit in this economy.

Totally agree about the recession effect. Example- Ford weathered the crash, did not take any bailout money and released the new EcoBoost V6 and "Coyote" 5.0L DOHC V8, which in my opinion is the greatest engine design of the last 15 years. Ford products are reliable, affordable and a heck of a lot of fun to drive. And they are selling well. Honda? Let's see. Well, no V8 for starters. What's in the flagship Accord? Oh yeah the same J-series V6 as in 1998. Hmmm, how about the Civic? Oh yeah the same K-series I4 from 10 years ago. Plus, you get the added bonus of an inferior suspension because the double wishbone was too expensive. That means a 1985 Civic has more advanced suspension geometry and better fuel economy than a 2012. Nice job Ito. Really encouraging.

Believe it or not, the car I use to exemplify the "good old Honda" is not my RDX, TSX, Accord V6 6MT, or even my NSX. Instead, it is my old 1988 Accord LXi 5MT. I bought that car as a junor in college for $1500 with ~ 220,000 miles on the clock. It was from an original owner (doctor) who diligently maintained it. Now, it wasn't the prettiest car- it had the dreaded "rusteoperosis" over the wheel wells and on the trunk lip. The black plastic trim had turned a pale white from the sun. The clear coat was peeling off the roof and hood. After a heavy rain if I hit the brakes too hard, I would get doused with cold water pouring out of the sunroof (the roof drain was plugged). But god dammit that car ran like a well-oiled machine. It had power everything and it all WORKED. The flip-up headlights worked. The transmission snicked into each gear just as good as the NSX. The handling was nimble, responsive and worry-free. The A20A3 2.0L I4 was a dream of an engine. Even with 220K, it was silky smooth, pulled strong all the way to redline and did not burn a DROP of oil. And, to top it all off, on a drive home to Rochester for Thanksgiving one year, I got 39 MPG with the cruise set at 72 mph in 5th gear. That car was reliable, comfortable, fun to drive, worry-free and as efficient as today's fancy hybrids. It was everything that was right about Honda.

By comparison, today's fully-optioned I4 Accord is 3400 lbs- a pig. I drove one and it felt plodding. The steering was numb and the car gasped and wheezed what I put my foot in it. The interior felt plasticky and cheap. And, the car didn't wrap around me like the 88. Instead, it felt like I was driving a Buick Park Avenue. I was so dissapointed. And sad for Honda.

So, when I hear about the new sports car, I think about the Honda that made my 1988 Accord LXi and the Honda that makes the 2011 Accord EX-L I drove. The former made my NSX. What will the latter make?

 

[WingZ]

Wow no Honda in Mays top 10 selling car/trucks. Fleet sales weren't a major contributor to these numbers. Plus The Accord is made so not affected by what's going on in Japan.

Top 20

1. F Series 42,399
2. Silverado 28,409
3. Malibu 25,600
4. Altima 25,525
5. Fusion 24,666
6. Escape 23,140
7. Sonata 22,754
8. Cruze 22,711
9. Focus 22,303
10. Ram Pickup 20,117
11. Elantra 20,006
12. Camry 18,830
13. Civic 18,341
14. Accord 18,185
15. Equinox 17,587
16. Corolla 16,985
17. Impala 16,707
18. Jetta 16,671
19. CR-V 16,037
20. Explorer 13,318

 

[Ponyboy]

Wow no Honda in Mays top 20 selling car/trucks. Fleet sales weren't a major contributor to these numbers. Plus The Accord is made so not affected by what's going on in Japan.

Top 20

1. F Series 42,399
2. Silverado 28,409
3. Malibu 25,600
4. Altima 25,525
5. Fusion 24,666
6. Escape 23,140
7. Sonata 22,754
8. Cruze 22,711
9. Focus 22,303
10. Ram Pickup 20,117
11. Elantra 20,006
12. Camry 18,830
13. Civic 18,341
14. Accord 18,185
15. Equinox 17,587
16. Corolla 16,985
17. Impala 16,707
18. Jetta 16,671
19. CR-V 16,037
20. Explorer 13,318

dude, I see the Civic at #13, the Accord at #14, and the CR-V at #19. To break into the top 10, Honda just needed to sell some 2,000 more Civics or Accords respectively.

 

[WingZ]

dude, I see the Civic at #13, the Accord at #14, and the CR-V at #19. To break into the top 10, Honda just needed to sell some 2,000 more Civics or Accords respectively.

Sorry bro I meant to say no Honda in the top "10". I corrected it now. Thanks!

 

[Ponyboy]

No worries, buddy. I agree with most of what has been said but I think it's important to note that this is a fairly unique time in the automotive world (lost decade anyone) and, IMHO, Honda is simply trying to survive as best as possible.

 

[WingZ]

No worries, buddy. I agree with most of what has been said but I think it's important to note that this is a fairly unique time in the automotive world (lost decade anyone) and, IMHO, Honda is simply trying to survive as best as possible.

How do they survive in last place??

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...x-comparison_tests/2012_honda_civic_ex_page_2

Honda took second place by a large margin. Some highlights

Honda used to advance technology through novel solutions, not stand idly by as others push the engineering envelope. (The company still hasn’t adopted direct fuel injection.)

Suspension tuning leans toward comfort. Body roll is well controlled, but damping is softer than in the Ford. The Focus feels taut; the Civic feels a little limp. The Honda’s steering is also disappointing—slower than before and devoid of feel.

From all this, you could surmise that Honda is shrewdly chasing consumers moving out of full-size cars and into smaller metal. There is a sluggish, big-car feel to this compact. We never thought we’d say this, but it’s the Honda, not the Ford, that feels as if it is built by the same people who brought you the Lincoln Town Car.

 

[Black 94 #400]

To Honda's CEO, see what happens when replace "Quantity
for Quality" line stolen from another car company's commercial

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43978900#43978900

 

[tbromley]

To Honda's CEO, see what happens when replace "Quantity
for Quality" line stolen from another car company's commercial

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43978900#43978900

I hardly know what to say to that? Wow - what is going on at Honda??? Wake up Honda before it's too late! Now get out there and build us a new NSX would ya please.....geez!

 

[Honcho]

Dear God... :frown:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/consumer-reports-stunner-thumbs-down-to-2012-honda-civic/4872

 

[WingZ]

We the enthusiasts told Honda for years they were going in the wrong direction.

 

[Caustic]

Dear God... :frown:

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-cars/consumer-reports-stunner-thumbs-down-to-2012-honda-civic/4872

"Its not just the Civic, either. Honda quality and value have been slipping for years."

That article was flat out depressing.

 

[Honcho]

This is why I'm not too excited about the prospects of the new Acura sports car. Honda can't keep their problems quiet much longer and it's now getting out into the mainstream press. Total lack of direction, weak leadership, and sub-standard, overpriced products. The old Honda would never have released a car like the 2012 Civic.

 

[WingZ]

This is why I'm not too excited about the prospects of the new Acura sports car. Honda can't keep their problems quiet much longer and it's now getting out into the mainstream press. Total lack of direction, weak leadership, and sub-standard, overpriced products. The old Honda would never have released a car like the 2012 Civic.

Did you guys see Hondas response?

Statement from American Honda Motor Co., Inc. 8/1/2011:

In a broad sense, we disagree with Consumer Reports' findings. Without question, the small sedan segment is more competitive than ever. In virtually every way, the completely redesigned 2012 Civic is a step forward. The new Civic excels in areas that matter to small-car customers, including fuel efficiency, safety, and reliability. Among the Civic's greatest competitive strengths, is a smooth and efficient powertrain that, in Consumer Reports testing returned, "... an impressive 30 mpg overall on regular fuel and 47 mpg on the highway." Also noted in Consumer Reports findings, the Civic excels in the area of safety, with a long list of important features standard on all trim levels, and a class-leading 'Top Safety Pick' rating from IIHS. Lastly, the Civic has a stellar reliability history with Consumer Reports, and we are confident that the new Civic will be a reliability leader as well.

Weak and knee jerk response

 

[Honcho]

Statement from American Honda Motor Co., Inc. 8/1/2011:

In a broad sense, we disagree with Consumer Reports' findings. Without question, the small sedan segment is more competitive than ever. In virtually every way, the completely redesigned 2012 Civic is a step forward. The new Civic excels in areas that matter to small-car customers, including fuel efficiency, safety, and reliability. Among the Civic's greatest competitive strengths, is a smooth and efficient powertrain that, in Consumer Reports testing returned, "... an impressive 30 mpg overall on regular fuel and 47 mpg on the highway." Also noted in Consumer Reports findings, the Civic excels in the area of safety, with a long list of important features standard on all trim levels, and a class-leading 'Top Safety Pick' rating from IIHS. Lastly, the Civic has a stellar reliability history with Consumer Reports, and we are confident that the new Civic will be a reliability leader as well.

This is damage-control corporate speak at its worst. Believe me, I know. Let's break it down:

Without question, the small sedan segment is more competitive than ever.

Translation --> The Civic is not any worse. It's just that all of the other competitors are better and we can't help that. This doesn't explain why the Civic scored lower than those competitors, however.

The new Civic excels in areas that matter to small-car customers, including fuel efficiency, safety, and reliability.

Translation --> Here's what doesn't matter to Honda: driving dynamics, handling, superior engineering, interior build quality, fun factor, styling. Customers don't care about that stuff.

Lastly, the Civic has a stellar reliability history with Consumer Reports, and we are confident that the new Civic will be a reliability leader as well.

Translation --> This is a lot like Jim Cramer telling us that Bear Stearns is fine, has been around for 100 years and isn't going anywhere, so we should leave all our money in there and buy more of it.

*SIGH* You know, somewhere in the bowels of Honda's engineering department there is a young engineer who grew up dreaming of the NSX, drives a DC5 Type-R and thinks back to when "Powered by Honda" used to mean something special, such as when it was emblazoned on Ayrton Senna's McLaren. He has all kinds of great ideas about how to make Hondas the standard of the world like they used to be and most of them would probably work. This guy will probably never get to be CEO and we'll never see any of his ideas. Instead we have Ito and his fleet of boring, overpriced golf carts.

 

[WingZ]

This is damage-control corporate speak at its worst. Believe me, I know. Let's break it down:



Translation --> The Civic is not any worse. It's just that all of the other competitors are better and we can't help that. This doesn't explain why the Civic scored lower than those competitors, however.



Translation --> Here's what doesn't matter to Honda: driving dynamics, handling, superior engineering, interior build quality, fun factor, styling. Customers don't care about that stuff.



Translation --> This is a lot like Jim Cramer telling us that Bear Stearns is fine, has been around for 100 years and isn't going anywhere, so we should leave all our money in there and buy more of it.

*SIGH* You know, somewhere in the bowels of Honda's engineering department there is a young engineer who grew up dreaming of the NSX, drives a DC5 Type-R and thinks back to when "Powered by Honda" used to mean something special, such as when it was emblazoned on Ayrton Senna's McLaren. He has all kinds of great ideas about how to make Hondas the standard of the world like they used to be and most of them would probably work. This guy will probably never get to be CEO and we'll never see any of his ideas. Instead we have Ito and his fleet of boring, overpriced golf carts.

As always the counselor delivers. Interesting that Ito was given a vote of confidence by the board and Honda employees , however he's quickly becoming the face of what's wrong at Honda
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/02/autos/honda_problems.fortune/

 

[aznblitzzzz]

Hey

that was a great article enjoyed the read...i wonder if there will be any changes to honda's current philosophy ..i sure hope so ....like the article says honda needs a jolt something to make them refocus themselves and start building cars with soul and passion

As always the counselor delivers. Interesting that Ito was given a vote of confidence by the board and Honda employees , however he's quickly becoming the face of what's wrong at Honda
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/02/autos/honda_problems.fortune/

 

[tbromley]

When I went to the car show this year in Atlanta even the pretty women standing next to the "new" RL said that the leadership has lacked direction. You know if your corporate people are saying things like that - you have some serious problems!

This is getting depressing! What will they do next! Pretty soon the answer to that question will be "who cares"! Too bad.....

 

[WingZ]

Hey

that was a great article enjoyed the read...i wonder if there will be any changes to honda's current philosophy ..i sure hope so ....like the article says honda needs a jolt something to make them refocus themselves and start building cars with soul and passion

Forgive the slang but anyone getting dissed this hard has to wake up. This thing with CR went viral big time! The fact that Honda responded so quickly let's you know it hit a sore spot.

I'm waiting to see if the Accord gets dropped from C/D's 10Best.