Article: Why Honda Is In Even More Trouble Than You Think [Deep Thoughts]

[whiteNSXs]

I would take the current Corolla, Sienna, IS, GS, ES, Highlander, Rav 4, Prius, and any Toyota over any current Honda's "counterparts" if there is such a thing. My wife still drives her wonderful 1999 CR-V that we bought new. We are just waiting for the next generation RAV4 before giving it up. Honda DID build the best cars in the world.
Steve

 

[TURBO2GO]

Has anyone seen the new Honda tv ad where a Honda sales woman is talking to a couple outside? There is a Hyundai dealer across the street, and the sales woman is asking the couple if reliability should be judged by the warranty (since hyundais have much better warranties). I forget the verbiage, but thats what she is saying....

I think this ad is pathetic. First of all Honda is clearly comparing themselves to Hyundai, and giving them full rival status with such an ad. Secondly, the logic that comes to my mind is, if you ARE more reliable, why don't you match the warranty?!!!! Honda is 3/36. The Germans at 4/something, and the Koreans are all at 5/60 bumper to bumper. Honda is 2 years and 14000 miles less.

Do I think Hyundai is better built than Honda? No. But what happens when you try to sell your car used? At 40,000 miles a used car buyer is taking full risk of buying your Honda. If it was a Hyundai, he has 20,000 miles left on a bumper to bumper warranty. Peace of mind. Would that influence my decision as a used car buyer? You better believe it would! Honda, instead of running a pathetic ad campaign trying to tell people "hey we are more reliable", should just give a better warranty. Besides this, 3 people this week asked me if I have test driven the new NSX to which I reply "not til 2014". Their reply is "then why are they advertising it now?".... And they are right. Honda is advertising a CONCEPT vehicle, at least 2-3 years away. Why??? This looks desperate to me. This looks like a company in some amount of trouble.

 

[MoogieBoogie]

BD you are seriously biased if you think the TSX can even be mentioned in the same sentence as the IS. The IS have 3 ranges, the closest thing the TSX compares to is the lowest IS250. The IS250 can be purchased with AWD though, and its much more expensive to boot. When you start stepping up to the IS350 or the ISF, the IS platform straight curb stomps the TSX and even the TL line.

Not sure if you're aware, but the TSX does have a V6 option.

Don't think that Hyundai exports US made vehicles back to Korea. They already have a large production facility in Korea.

 

[Juice]

Not sure if you're aware, but the TSX does have a V6 option.

Yup, and good luck finding it.

If they offered this package in their wagon with SH-AWD, I would have bought it. But they don't, and I didn't.

Acura and Honda "could" be great. But this "green initiative " completely missed the mark. We all want better gas mileage so that should be their focus - Frugal Performance. Not Save the Planet at the Expence of Performance. I would have thought that a complete lack of sponsorship in F1 would have taught them that.:thumbdown:

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk 2

 

[jond]

But what happens when you try to sell your car used? At 40,000 miles a used car buyer is taking full risk of buying your Honda. If it was a Hyundai, he has 20,000 miles left on a bumper to bumper warranty.

I would say the OPPOSITE.
At 100,000 miles, everyone knows the Hyundai is done. It's worth the scrap metal price. The Honda has another 200,000+ miles on it, or trade it in for 1/2 what you paid for it.

People who buy Hyundai are the same people who do pay-day loans. "It's cheap NOW." "I don't care about resale. Depreciation rate, TCO, I don't care, cheap NOW..."

The sad thing is, if you do a TCO on them, the Hyundai isn't cheaper. It's just 'cheap now'

.

 

[DoubleZeroRS]

I agree with this. Only I would add all car makers.
What car maker makes more than 1 cool car?
Most don't make any.

Toyota makes nothing but lame cars(the new Subaru/Scion excluded).

Subarus, how many do you see with 200,000 miles? NONE.

Mitsubishi.. Pure junk cars.

GM is fail in ever sense of the word.

Nissan makes 2 cools car. Only 1 cool one that's reliable one.

Hyundai just steals from every to make their throw away cars look somewhat cool.

VW is rated as the least reliable car made. Junk.

Mazda makes 1 cool car.

I see many >200,000 miles, and even >300,000.



http://www.rs25.com/forums/f135/t110900-high-mileage-cars-post-up.html

 

[Midnight_Raven]

Has anyone seen the new Honda tv ad where a Honda sales woman is talking to a couple outside? There is a Hyundai dealer across the street, and the sales woman is asking the couple if reliability should be judged by the warranty (since hyundais have much better warranties). I forget the verbiage, but thats what she is saying....

I think this ad is pathetic. First of all Honda is clearly comparing themselves to Hyundai, and giving them full rival status with such an ad. Secondly, the logic that comes to my mind is, if you ARE more reliable, why don't you match the warranty?!!!! Honda is 3/36. The Germans at 4/something, and the Koreans are all at 5/60 bumper to bumper. Honda is 2 years and 14000 miles less.

Do I think Hyundai is better built than Honda? No. But what happens when you try to sell your car used? At 40,000 miles a used car buyer is taking full risk of buying your Honda. If it was a Hyundai, he has 20,000 miles left on a bumper to bumper warranty. Peace of mind. Would that influence my decision as a used car buyer? You better believe it would! Honda, instead of running a pathetic ad campaign trying to tell people "hey we are more reliable", should just give a better warranty. Besides this, 3 people this week asked me if I have test driven the new NSX to which I reply "not til 2014". Their reply is "then why are they advertising it now?".... And they are right. Honda is advertising a CONCEPT vehicle, at least 2-3 years away. Why??? This looks desperate to me. This looks like a company in some amount of trouble.

I always looked at it the opposite way. If they are offering a 5 year warranty it means the car is more prone to fail and need repairs during those 5 years compared to cars from other brands. It's basically a way to entice customers to take the risk of ownership because you are covered for longer. Although in regards to Hyundai current new car reliability I don't really know how good they are so I can't say for certain Hyundai is at the same level as Honda.

 

[Nukem]

Seems like I read somewhere that Acura sales were up 60% compared to this time last yr and that Honda sales were up 40 something %. I agree Honda/Acura doesn't offer anything that I would want to buy.

 

[TURBO2GO]

At 100,000 miles, everyone knows the Hyundai is done. It's worth the scrap metal price. The Honda has another 200,000+ miles on it, or trade it in for 1/2 what you paid for it.'

.

True to a certain extent, but that is not my point. At 99K miles, the Hyundai still is under full powertrain warranty. Not everyone buying a used car is a car person. They look at one car that still has a warranty at 90k miles for the engine, transmission, diff, etc... No matter how it's been owned, maintained, or driven. The other car may be more "known" to be more reliable as a brand, but at 80K the average buyer has no clue how it's been driven and maintained. They can see that car as very risky, and the other as no risk. Same within the bumper to bumper range. No matt how much you, as a car guy, want t say Honda is better, you have to admit the longer warranty DOES HELP the Hyundai greatly in resale value. And the facts back up my statement as the sonata is currently maintaining better resale than all it's competitors. There are a couple of other models doing the same, I forget now but they are segment leaders now. The short warranty hurts Honda's resale in comparison. I am not arguing reliability. Honda is more reliable but that gap is closing.

My point wasnt any of this. My point is when Honda, the king of reliability, solidity, and resale, is showing a Hyundai sign in their ad, and saying "their longer warranty doesn't mean they are more reliable", it shows a clear company REACTION. A reaction tells me they are clearly concerned about their competition. That is my point.

I always looked at it the opposite way. If they are offering a 5 year warranty it means the car is more prone to fail and need repairs during those 5 years compared to cars from other brands. It's basically a way to entice customers to take the risk of ownership because you are covered for longer. Although in regards to Hyundai current new car reliability I don't really know how good they are so I can't say for certain Hyundai is at the same level as Honda.

Raven, the public majority does not share your view. They will not look at it like that. They read consumer reports which says "we cannot recommend the civic".

The majority of the public does not "get" steering feel and feedback. They don't get suspension balance. They don't read road and track. They see a car with more features, better looks, a lower price, and a MUCH better warranty. You see what I mean? My girlfriend just bought a Hyundai over a Honda. I can't blame her. Although I enjoyed the accord coupe more, she didn't. She saw a lack of sunroof, a shitty stereo, a bland interior and in her words even a more bland exterior.... And a higher price. I can't sit and convince her there is more feedback in the steering. As much as I was impressed with the accord's dynamics, she shrugged her shoulders.

Unfortunately Honda cannot live on what nsx drivers like or even what road and track ranks first. They have glaring weaknesses in other areas. And as much as many guys on this forum like to poo poo Hyundai and kia and say they are junk, unreliable, etc... The sales numbers are showing they are in the minority. Honda cannot survive serving the enthusiasts, half of whom they have even lost.

 

[TURBO2GO]

IMHO Honda is going to be a smaller company. They are GOING TO lose to the average consumer market battle to the Koreans who are coming at them armed to the teeth with lower prices, better design, more festures, longer warranties, and a closing reliability and resale gap.

Where Honda excels, their "weapon", is better driving dynamics. But they have shot themselves in the foot killing off all their sports cars and losing all those enthusiasts. The guys like the guys on this forum. Their "core" customers. The NSX is late.... WAY LATE. They need a new strategy before its too late. When I am doing Jiujitsu against a guy that outweighs me by 100 pounds, I know I need a different strategy than when I am against a skilled lighter guy. I don't do the same thing. I evaluate, and I adjust. When you are in battle you have to recognize what you can and can't do, and fast. If you are delusional about the strength of your foe or what you can do, he is going to kill you.

 

[JohnJW]

My point wasnt any of this. My point is when Honda, the king of reliability, solidity, and resale, is showing a Hyundai sign in their ad, and saying "their longer warranty doesn't mean they are more reliable", it shows a clear company REACTION. A reaction tells me they are clearly concerned about their competition. That is my point.

You must also notice that Honda never before made comparisons in commercials. They always focused on their product. Never comparing to the competition. I loved that about them. All other auto makers would always do this, thus admitting that they are worried.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Great article, I have to admit I feel similarly about Honda/Acura these last 3 years or so.

I've been a "Honda guy" since I started driving in an 88 Accord LXi coupe. I've had several Honda and Acura Cars / SUVs since then, and they have been my go to shop. I look for a Honda/Acura first when I'm shopping for cars, or at least, I used to.

A few months back I took my TL in for it's first major service- it's an 04, but only just recently crossed 70k, so I got the timing belt major service done due to age instead of mileage.

Acura gave me a 12' TL to drive while the car was in. I gotta say, that 12 TL trumped my 04 in every way- the morning I had it we had a slush storm so i got to experience the SH AWD in miserable conditions- it was flawless. The interior was very comfortable and the controls were intuitive, power was plentiful, and the sport shift was awesome. When driving the car I was absolutely in love with it.

Then I got out and looked at it.

Can't do it. Even with the "refreshed" grill it still looks terrible- and looks are part of the appeal of a car. Don't kid yourself.

My Pilot went in to Honda a little while back as it was throwing a code. It turned out it needed to have a wiring harness replaced. While I was waiting on the shuttle to take me to work I walked the showroom a bit. They had one of those automotive aberrations in the showroom- you know the one... The Accord that got drunk and had pity sex with an Odyssey. A union that bore a child no one could love. The Salesman asked me about my Pilot, and said a lot of Pilot owners were going over to the thing in front of me. Now, I'll admit, my Pilot is an ugly duckling, but it's more of a toaster-as-a-car kinda ugly, not so much a "we put wheels on our poop" kinda ugly like the thing in front of me there.

He offered me a test drive but I passed- there was just not a way on this planet I'd ever consider buying one of those. It's everything I never wanted in a car.

I also noticed the newest Civic- even the one they chose to have in the showroom was a sad shadow of the Civic Si that used to be parked next to my desk at the dealer I worked for while in College. That was 2000, and I don't see anything nearly as exciting, interesting, or even just "as good as" the cars I sold back then. Honest.

It's going to be time to replace the Pilot in a year or two. Hopefully I can land a nice MDX, otherwise I'm going to have to go off-brand.


But maybe that's for the best. Maybe Honda needs to plummet to the point where they finally splatter on the pavement.

I've driven countless rental cars over the years. Usually I ask for a Honda, or a Toyota if they have one. At the end of April I went back home to stand up with a buddy for his wedding. I was trying to keep things on the cheap, and got a bargain saver rental- $13.99 a day for an "intermediate" car. This got me a Chevy Cruze LTZ RS/SS. I gotta tell you, it was a nice little car. I was getting 34 MPG at 80mph on the highway, and i was pleasantly surprised by the amenities in the car. CD player / MP3 player interface, bluetooth connectivity for my phone- I was in the thing for a week, so I bothered to pair my phone. the system worked every bit as well as the HFL system that had been in the 12' TL I had that I mentioned earlier. The Cruze wasn't bad to look at either with it's oversized wheels, and trim package. Post bankruptcy GM is building a better product.

So maybe if Honda falls down completely they will also get back to building good cars again.

Maybe, but who knows.

 

[LowFlyin']

The current (or most recent) management of Honda have already said that their main concern or forward company vision is Hybrids and high-MPG cars. Driving experience be damned, for the most part. ...and this mentality has shown itself all to well in the CRZ.

I wanted to like the CRZ. I really did. I even test drove the car several times before ultimately settling on a '02 S2000.

The CRZ did somethings right: interior and exterior styling

...but ultimately there was just too much wrong, and my bias toward Honda could not overlook them.

Driving feel: the car just feels numb. The steering is too light, the shifter feels disconnected from the transmission and the suspension is too compliant in the turns and under braking. 16x6 wheels standard? That kills any opportunity the car had at being competitive in the SCCA stock classes.

MPGs: I can forgive the "lack of power" so many people have come to comment on. The power to me was fine, in fact, it is on par power/weight ratio-wise with the 90-91 Civic DX and Si. Mid-30's out of a hybrid, though? You've got to be kidding me. The 2011+ Mustang V6 gets "close" to what the CRX does both highway and city. That just shouldn't happen.

To me, the CRZ and newest Civic Si shows just how disconnect Honda has become from their once-core-audience. I won't consider owning anything from Honda that wasn't designed in the 90's.

I really hope that changes...but from what I've seen of the new NSX...it doesn't seem like it is going to be anytime soon.

 

[Jimbo]

And when it came to green/mileage Honda focused on the wrong end of their product line.

Jeeze, their small cars like the Fit and Civic already got decent good mileage, while their larger vehicles get relatively poor mileage.

Instead of saddling the CRZ, which would have gotten fine mileage without the hybrid, they should have put the hybrid tech into the larger vehicles where it would have made a bigger percentage increase. Stupid.

Same with the new NSX. They're not going to sell a lot of them so the additional mileage obtained from the hybrid for those few cars isn't going to seriously impact Honda's collective mileage fleet stats. Yeah, I know they're also using the electric motors for SHAWD...whatever.

Our 4 cylinder Honda Element rarely gets more than 17 MPG. Other manufacturers have gotten significant gains in mileage by putting hybrid or light hybrid tech into their SUVs (like Ford). That's where Honda should have focused.

My upcoming Subaru BRZ will get pretty decent mileage and be real fun to drive. It's a shame but Honda left me - I didn't leave them. Honda is just green-whipped.

-Jim

PS: They could take their standard 270HP V6 and mount it front-mid engine like the Toybaru twins. Shoot for 2,900 lbs with no hybrid nonsense and killer styling. 2+2 seating. Call it Prelude II and sell it for $35K (just over the Accord Coupe. People would go nuts over this I think. I would have. Furthermore, if Acura took this basic "Prelude II" and added more HP and refinement it could have been a nice affordable sports car at the $50K price point.

 

[BD]

KBB on resale value, Honda continue to take top two slots on many categories.

The only one Hyundai is higher is the Tucson SUV and no other vehicles from that company made the list, PERIOD.

Resale value is one of the biggest key or "daily" drive cars because it is the second investment a person can have.

I think this story is over hyped and many car companies (those without government backing) are still trying to recover from the recession. Japanese car makers have one extra hurdle to cross and most of them are almost back on track from the Tsunami.

When the recession is over, Honda will be fine.

This is Forbe's list of ranking.

Rankings: World’s biggest car companies
April 20, 2012
Read laterComments 23
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Forbes Global 2000 survey reveals the highest ranking car makers among the top 2000 companies in the world.

Volkswagen has retained its place as the number one car company in the world, according to the Forbes Global 2000 companies survey.

View the Top 100 here

The report ranks the world’s biggest companies across an equal weighting of sales, profits, assets and market value. The result is a company ranking in order of size, with 66 countries represented in the mix.

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In order of overall ranking, the German-based Volkswagen Group – which includes other marques such as Audi, Bentley, and Lamborghini – ranked 17th, up 7 spots on its 2011 ranking of 24.

Forbes ranked Japan’s Toyota Motor as the second biggest car maker in 25th spot overall, up from 55th in 2011. German maker Daimler (Mercedes-Benz parent company) rose six spots to claim 37th place ahead of US maker Ford, which jumped 10 spots to 44th. Japan’s Honda Motor took 59th position, and German company BMW slotted in 61st.

US poster boy General Motors came in seventh position among the car makers and 63rd overall (2011: 61). Nissan jumped by 181 spots to 85, while South Korean maker Hyundai was ranked 96th, up from 131 in 2011.

Chinese motoring manufacturer SAIC Motor Corporation (formerly Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation), parent of brands such as MG, Roewe and Maxus, ranked 12th biggest car company, coming 232nd place overall (up from 407 in 2011).

Fellow Chinese maker Dongfeng Motor Group ranked 16th in terms of car makers (overall: 450), ahead of the likes of Peugeot (458) and Suzuki (514); followed by BYD (1266), Great Wall Motors (1476) and Huayu Automotive (1779).
Indian behemoth Tata Motors, owner of brands Jaguar and Land Rover, ranked 15th biggest car company (348 overall), and fellow Indian maker Mahindra and Mahindra, which builds utes and SUVs as well as tractors, took 918th place overall.

Interestingly, the number one business in the world was found to be oil company Exxon Mobil – the first of four petrol and diesel refiners in the top 10 (Royal Dutch Shell – 4th; PetroChina – 7th; Petrobras Petroleo Brasil – 10th).

Forbes’ top car makers for 2012
Volkswagen – 17
Toyota – 25
Daimler – 37
Ford – 44
Honda – 59
BMW – 61
General Motors – 63
Nissan – 85
Hyundai – 96
Volvo – 183
Renault – 187
SAIC – 232
Kia – 253
Fiat – 314
Tata – 348
Dongfeng Motor Group – 450
Peugeot – 458
Suzuki – 514
Isuzu – 721
Fuji Heavy Industries (Subaru) – 805
Mahindra and Mahindra – 918
Mitsubishi – 1046
Mazda – 1055
Porsche – 1056
BYD – 1266
Great Wall Motors – 1476
Huayu Automotive – 1779

I don't think there is anything to worry about. They all go through bumps but for a manufacturing company like Honda, which is consider the best internal combustion engine manufacture, they have plenty of assets to weather the storm.

 

[Hugh]

Indian behemoth Tata Motors, owner of brands Jaguar and Land Rover

Who would have thought that during my lifetime I would have had a pair of Tatas! :biggrin:

 

[jond]

My point wasnt any of this. My point is when Honda, the king of reliability, solidity, and resale, is showing a Hyundai sign in their ad, and saying "their longer warranty doesn't mean they are more reliable", it shows a clear company REACTION. A reaction tells me they are clearly concerned about their competition. That is my point.

Yeah I agree with that. I haven't seen the commercial, but clearly Hondas marketing staff should rework it.
I think Hyundai's recent success is a result of the world-wide recession. Just like Dollar Tree...
As soon as the economy turns around, the welfare brands will drop like rocks.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Jond if your view is that Hyundai and Kia are "welfare brands", it is not the majority view. They aren't doing well because the economy is bad and people want to save money. You and Vance have both said this and I just don't agree. They are doing well because they make good cars that offer a lot of value.

They do everything better than Honda/Toyota except better driving dynamics than Honda, and overall long term reliability and resale than both. That gap closes every year and they are leading their segments with certain models.

I don't own a Korean car, I own 2 Hondas. I just call things as they are. Hyundai is growing at an alarming rate, and Honda is saying " warranty doesn't mean reliability" in their TV ads. It's bad.... Would you have imagined Honda acknowledging Hyundai in their tv ads 10 years ago? Toyota is just as worried as Honda.

 

[jond]

Hyundai is growing at an alarming rate, and Honda is saying " warranty doesn't mean reliability" in their TV ads. It's bad.... Would you have imagined Honda acknowledging Hyundai in their tv ads 10 years ago? Toyota is just as worried as Honda.

Agreed.

 

[jond]

Just saw this today:
Honda Fit EV Most Efficient New Car In US

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/06/honda-fit-ev-most-efficient-new-car-in-us/

 

[Keahistight]

+1. My first honda was a 5th Gen Prelude. I Actually looked into trying to make a lude rwd.. would have been fun!

On topic though, that management needs to shape up, and quick! All the cars I want/like from Honda are discontinued. It's a real shame...

+3
I went by the same name over on Prelude Online. I think I still have a thread stickied there on boost. I built and boosted the motor and did a custom turbo setup and ran 330WHP on the 5th gen. That car was freaking sweet. I miss mine too.

Honda has the engineering component there. To fix the brand they need to start by:
1. change the naming convention back to integra, legend etc.
2. offer a proper v8 flagship (hopefully a smaller high rev V8 like Honda is great at)
3. change all the styling
4. bring a coupe platform back AKA integra or TSX coupe

 

[Lucifers Angel]

I agree with this. Only I would add all car makers.
What car maker makes more than 1 cool car?
Most don't make any.

Toyota makes nothing but lame cars(the new Subaru/Scion excluded).

Subarus, how many do you see with 200,000 miles? NONE.

Mitsubishi.. Pure junk cars.

GM is fail in ever sense of the word.

Nissan makes 2 cools car. Only 1 cool one that's reliable one.

Hyundai just steals from every to make their throw away cars look somewhat cool.

VW is rated as the least reliable car made. Junk.

Mazda makes 1 cool car.

Toyota - Well you just contradicted yourself and if you're including Scion, why not include the Lexus ISF and LFA.

Subaru - I don't know where you came up with that? I know a lot of people with older subarus with over 200K miles on them. BTW, Subaru owners are some of the most loyal owers you'll ever find. What's not cool about an STi?

Mitsubishi - The Evolution seriers and current Evo X is not what I'd consider Junk. I've owned a Evo VIII and now currently have a IX. In the 6 years I've had the car not 1 problem. All I do is drive it HARD, and do maintenance. Granted there really isn't much else in Mitsu's line up to get excited about. Although the Outlander and the Outlander Sport do look nice.

GM - WHAT???? Are you saying the Z06 / ZR1 / ZL1 Camaro fail???

Nissan - I'm assuming the 2 your talking about are the GTR and Z? Well they are as reliable as anything out there. Having ownd 2 350Zs, and leased a 370Z never one problem. 2 of my friends own GT-Rs and are modded, not one problem.

Hyundai - I wouldn't consider them throw away cars anymore, maybe in the 80's and early 90's. The Genesis and Genesis Coupe, Sonata Turbo, New Veloster Turbo, Equus, all great vehicles in fact one of the freshed line ups in the automotive industry. Hyundai/Kia are one of the most growing brands Especially in the US.

VW - Can you please provide a sourse for that accusation?

Mazda - MX-5 or RX-8?

Anyway, I just didn't think you were making correct assumptions.

 

[kaede]

+1 for lucifers

however, unfortunately, it is also true that VW is rated incredibly low for its reliability almost from every single car magazine/survey. I worked for VW before and brand new cars would come back with mysterious issues and problems that just doesn't occur on other brands. The fact that they now make most of them in mexico and lowering its msrp might have something to do with the build quality. But as a car, most higher end model VW's are great. Touareg is basically a Porsche Chayenne, GTI/Golf-R is one the the most fun FWD car around, for the money, the Passat and Passat CC is pretty attractive.

All I can say is no matter which brand there will always be something awesome, and something that is lame. When a brand have absolutely NOTHING awesome at all (current line-ups and offerings), they usually perform rather poorly such as suzuki (great motorcycles tho), saturn, saab (once a fantastic brand) etc.