this has got to stop somewhere !!!!!!! 
Arizona gas crisis
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Yellow Rose
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Terrorists have been shown two easy ways to wreck havoc...let's hope the authorities learn from these incidents and take appropriate precautions.
Not when you have a bunch of oil whores in the White House. The oil companies will milk this for all they can get and the government will say and do nothing.
The reason for the temporary gasoline price spike in Arizona was a result of a pipeline failure that provides finished product to Arizona. Arizona has no refineries and relies on products being pipelined from Texas and California. Stop the flow and what may be expected? You got it.....price rise because of supply-n-demand. Not the government and not terrorists had anything to do with Arizona's temporary gasoline price spike.
You think that was bad? You should've been around in 1979.
Not when you have a bunch of oil whores in the White House. The oil companies will milk this for all they can get and the government will say and do nothing.
The reason for the temporary gasoline price spike in Arizona was a result of a pipeline failure that provides finished product to Arizona. Arizona has no refineries and relies on products being pipelined from Texas and California. Stop the flow and what may be expected? You got it.....price rise because of supply-n-demand. Not the government and not terrorists had anything to do with Arizona's temporary gasoline price spike.
You think that was bad? You should've been around in 1979.
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Hey, 
, it seems you are getting a "Europe simulator" regarding gas prices!
, it seems you are getting a "Europe simulator" regarding gas prices!AndyVecsey said:You guys are clueless. The reason for the temporary gasoline price spike in Arizona was a result of a pipeline failure that provides finished product to Arizona. Arizona has no refineries and relies on products being pipelined from Texas and California. Stop the flow and what may be expected? You got it.....price rise because of supply-n-demand. Not the government and not terrorists had anything to do with Arizona's temporary gasoline price spike.
Here in NY, my gas prices went up 40 cents in one week. The falure of an oil pipeline which goes from TX to AZ does not affect how much oil goes from TX to NY. Their is no gas shortage here. No stations have run out of gas. There is just as much as there always is. They have just artificially inflated the price.
gheba_nsx said:Hey,
At $2.65 a gallon, they are only half way..........
Yellow Rose
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They have just artificially inflated the price.
Prove it!
Instead of whining about it, turn in that gas station's name to your local BBB. If the watchdog is looking and there is no substantiated reason for the price hike, the station will lower the price. Otherwise, it stands. Just like the Public Utilities Commission that monitors electricity and water prices, there is an agency that oversees commodity prices. I know.....I'm in the business.
Prove it!
Instead of whining about it, turn in that gas station's name to your local BBB. If the watchdog is looking and there is no substantiated reason for the price hike, the station will lower the price. Otherwise, it stands. Just like the Public Utilities Commission that monitors electricity and water prices, there is an agency that oversees commodity prices. I know.....I'm in the business.
DutchBlackNsx said:At $2.65 a gallon, they are only half way..........
That is sad but true...
Yellow Rose
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Pipelines
The failure of an oil pipeline which goes from TX to AZ does not affect how much oil goes from TX to NY.
You are right and you are wrong.
Why You Are Right
There are no oil pipelines to New York; however, there are finished products (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc.) and natural gas pipelines to New York. For an oil pipeline to go somewhere, there has to be a refinery. Any refineries in New York?
Why You Are Wrong
Nationwide pipeline logistics are very much related from state-to-state. I guarantee you that what happened to the Texas-to-Arizona pipeline had an affect of somesort elsewhere in the nation. Here is an analogy that I'm sure you can relate to. A power grid failure in Ohio impacted New York. See the relationship?
The failure of an oil pipeline which goes from TX to AZ does not affect how much oil goes from TX to NY.
You are right and you are wrong.
Why You Are Right
There are no oil pipelines to New York; however, there are finished products (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, etc.) and natural gas pipelines to New York. For an oil pipeline to go somewhere, there has to be a refinery. Any refineries in New York?
Why You Are Wrong
Nationwide pipeline logistics are very much related from state-to-state. I guarantee you that what happened to the Texas-to-Arizona pipeline had an affect of somesort elsewhere in the nation. Here is an analogy that I'm sure you can relate to. A power grid failure in Ohio impacted New York. See the relationship?
Re: Pipelines
Nope, but right across the river in NJ, there are tons of them.
Not for oil. There is no oil shortage. They are only having a problem transporting oil to AZ and the West Coast. And since oil going to NY does not pass through AZ and the West Coast, there is no relation here.
Regarding the power grid falure, power is shared among the different power companies, and they are connected to the same grid. A falure in one place can cascade and cause other outages. The falure of the AZ pipeline does not affect oil in NJ refineries.
I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are. It's so obvious. They have done this before and they will continue to do this every chance they get. I'm surprised they are not blaming it on the bombing of a pipeline in Iraq! I guess even they think the people are not so stupid to believe that a pipeline bringing oil from Iraq to Turkey will affect American gas prices. They pulled that crap during the first Gulf War when gas prices went up 70%.
You say you want proof? What would you consider valid proof of this? Please give an example of what proof would be in this case.
AndyVecsey said:
Nope, but right across the river in NJ, there are tons of them.
Not for oil. There is no oil shortage. They are only having a problem transporting oil to AZ and the West Coast. And since oil going to NY does not pass through AZ and the West Coast, there is no relation here.
Regarding the power grid falure, power is shared among the different power companies, and they are connected to the same grid. A falure in one place can cascade and cause other outages. The falure of the AZ pipeline does not affect oil in NJ refineries.
I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are. It's so obvious. They have done this before and they will continue to do this every chance they get. I'm surprised they are not blaming it on the bombing of a pipeline in Iraq! I guess even they think the people are not so stupid to believe that a pipeline bringing oil from Iraq to Turkey will affect American gas prices. They pulled that crap during the first Gulf War when gas prices went up 70%.
You say you want proof? What would you consider valid proof of this? Please give an example of what proof would be in this case.
Yellow Rose
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Proof
I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are. They have done this before and they will continue to do this every chance they get. They pulled that crap during the first Gulf War when gas prices went up 70%. You say you want proof? What would you consider valid proof of this? Please give an example of what proof would be in this case.
What do I consider proof? Something more substantial than you running on about how oil companies are arbitrarily jacking up crude prices. For you to just make an unfounded claim (other than you wallet hurts when you fill the tank) of artificially inflated gasoline prices, demonstrates you are really clueless about international pertroleum economics. I suggest before you continue your assertion that oil companies randomly jack prices, you read "The Color of Oil" by Michael Economides and Ronald Oligney.
I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are. They have done this before and they will continue to do this every chance they get. They pulled that crap during the first Gulf War when gas prices went up 70%. You say you want proof? What would you consider valid proof of this? Please give an example of what proof would be in this case.
What do I consider proof? Something more substantial than you running on about how oil companies are arbitrarily jacking up crude prices. For you to just make an unfounded claim (other than you wallet hurts when you fill the tank) of artificially inflated gasoline prices, demonstrates you are really clueless about international pertroleum economics. I suggest before you continue your assertion that oil companies randomly jack prices, you read "The Color of Oil" by Michael Economides and Ronald Oligney.
Again, I will ask you to give an example of what you would consider valid proof. The reason I ask this, is because I suspect you would not consider anything proof of this unless the guilty parties dropped to their knees and confessed. Don't give me generalizations. Give me an example of what you would consider valid proof.
WTF: Clueless In Arizona
How did you infer from my statement above that I thought the gas spike had anything to do with terrorists?
At least I don't go around putting down people. Thanks for calling us "clueless in Arizona." That took some real class.AndyVecsey said:
AndyVecsey said:Not the government and not terrorists had anything to do with Arizona's temporary gasoline price spike.
How did you infer from my statement above that I thought the gas spike had anything to do with terrorists?
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Give me an example of what you would consider valid proof.
A report, a study, a paper - something that validates your hypothesis that oil companies randomly hike prices on a whim.
Something that does not contain generalizations, rather it needs to be predicated on substantial "evidence".
A report, a study, a paper - something that validates your hypothesis that oil companies randomly hike prices on a whim.
Something that does not contain generalizations, rather it needs to be predicated on substantial "evidence".
Yellow Rose
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PHOEN$X said:
Wellllll, your second post that was seven hours on the same day after your original post on this topic where you wrote "However, there are still lines of cars forming around the few stations that are open....." and "Terrorists have been shown two easy ways to wreck havoc...let's hope the authorities learn from these incidents and take appropriate precautions." Since you stated no disclaimers between the two comments, it is pretty easy to conclude that you were inferring they are related to each other. If they aren't, your post needs to be more specific and clear.
Regarding my "clueless" comment. While I wrote "Clueless In Arizona" in the subject, in the text box I was really referring to also include people outside of Arizona as well. Every time gas goes up a bit, people start complaining and pointing fingers towards oil companies as being the crook. These people are totally clueless about international petroleum business economics. Sure, there are a few price gougers out there but they do not represent 99% of gasoline pricing structure in the US. So instead of trying to understand what drives commodity prices, people toss out speculation and innuendo. These people are clueless as to the real market workings.
PS - you said that you are not driving your NSX until the gasoline prices return to normal, that you will be driving you Mustang. Unless your Mustang gets better gas mileage than your NSX, where is the logic in that?
Last I looked, a V-8 Ford gets less MPG than the V-6 Honda. Did anyone else think that I was blaming the gas crisis on terrorists??? Tell you what, why don't you just put me on your ignore list? That way, you don't have to deal with my "unclear" and "clueless" posts.AndyVecsey said:
Now who's being unclear?AndyVecsey said:
Who said I was driving my Mustang? The only thing I said about my Mustang was that it had no locking cap, that I had put *both* it and the NSX back in the garage after washing them, and that I had filled up ONCE. For all you know I could've been carpooling, and also the Mustang takes regular unleaded while the NSX requires premium. So unless you know what the different types of gas are selling for around here, PLEASE quit putting words in other people's mouths.AndyVecsey said:PS - you said that you are not driving your NSX until the gasoline prices return to normal, that you will be driving you Mustang. Unless your Mustang gets better gas mileage than your NSX, where is the logic in that?
AndyVecsey said:
Ok........here is a study from earlier this year by The Utility Consumers Action Network stating just that:
GAS GOUGE CONTINUES DESPITE OIL PRICE DROPS
DutchBlackNsx said:At $2.65 a gallon, they are only half way..........
depends on how much you drive and the distance, i must add.
for example, i go to asian countries (HK, Taiwan, etc...), the gas is bought by the liter, not gallon. they charge much higher than the US but people end up with the same gas costs per year or less.
why? simple. they don't drive as much or as far as we do to get to places. most of their travels are local and around big metropolitans. yes, they may take 1 hour to get to work like we do but that's in constant heavy traffic.
some of us in the US practically travel 100+ miles to and fro work everyday. a 5 mile drive to buy grocery or run errands is typical here.
in short, i say we spend just as much if not more for annual gas consumption. besides, the US should get the lowest price because we probably have more cars than the rest of the world combined.
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Ignore List
Oh you set yourself up for a good one, here.
If I were to filter out threads that contain "PHOEN$X", then I'd have nothing to read. 
PHOEN$X said:
Oh you set yourself up for a good one, here.
If I were to filter out threads that contain "PHOEN$X", then I'd have nothing to read.
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Wrong Answer
Bravo, so you found a report that says price gouging at the pump goes on. That is not what we are looking for. I challenged you to substantiate that oil companies are randomly jacking crude oil prices that result in spiked gasoline prices. You say they do and I (who is in the oil biz) say they do not. Your previous quote is "I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are." Your report doesn't come close to this request. Keep trying.
Eric5273 said:
Bravo, so you found a report that says price gouging at the pump goes on. That is not what we are looking for. I challenged you to substantiate that oil companies are randomly jacking crude oil prices that result in spiked gasoline prices. You say they do and I (who is in the oil biz) say they do not. Your previous quote is "I am not suggesting that the local gas stations are inflating the price. The oil companies are." Your report doesn't come close to this request. Keep trying.
man, the high gas prices sure raised the heat around here.....
whether we think we know the right reasons for the price hike or NOT, it won't help us lower gas prices.....heck, for all i know, i could be blaming governor davis for our gas hikes.....compared to the recent triple DMV fees, gas is nothing. i could buy half a years worth of gas with this fee raise....$700 for my '98
so let's just continue to rant about gas prices (purpose for this post) rather than finding the cause.....
whether we think we know the right reasons for the price hike or NOT, it won't help us lower gas prices.....heck, for all i know, i could be blaming governor davis for our gas hikes.....compared to the recent triple DMV fees, gas is nothing. i could buy half a years worth of gas with this fee raise....$700 for my '98
so let's just continue to rant about gas prices (purpose for this post) rather than finding the cause.....
Re: Wrong Answer
I will.
GOUGING & GUZZLING; OIL FIRM PROFITS SOAR ON HIGHER GAS PRICES
Record Oil Company Profits Underscore Market Consolidation
Oil companies are collecting record profits while consumers get drilled at the gas pumps
In the first three months of this year, profits for the five largest oil companies operating in the U.S. rose nearly 40 percent over the same period last year
And this article admits that the oil companies are price gouging but tries to argue that price gouging is ok because it is a natural part of capitalism:
Balance Sheet of Gouging
AndyVecsey said:
I will.
GOUGING & GUZZLING; OIL FIRM PROFITS SOAR ON HIGHER GAS PRICES
Record Oil Company Profits Underscore Market Consolidation
Oil companies are collecting record profits while consumers get drilled at the gas pumps
In the first three months of this year, profits for the five largest oil companies operating in the U.S. rose nearly 40 percent over the same period last year
And this article admits that the oil companies are price gouging but tries to argue that price gouging is ok because it is a natural part of capitalism:
Balance Sheet of Gouging
Yellow Rose
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Still no luck. That report is stating the obvious - that oil companies are making huge profit and consumers are paying more for gasoline. What we are looking for is substantial proof that oil companies are randomly jacking prices w/o fear of reprisal. When I see it, I will publically admit that I am wrong and will immediately shut up on this topic.
A couple of observations - Senator Feinstein writes a letter to major oil company CEOs complaining about gasoline prices. Then she closes with "Please know I continue to watch gasoline prices in California and the rest of the nation closely and expect to see retail gasoline prices reflect declining crude oil prices in the very near future." She expects to see falling gasoline prices? Puh-leeze, lady. Boy she really has me afraid and shaking. And in one of the other URLs it mentions oil company profits as a result of M&As. Guess who is behind that? Wall Street analysts that want to see improved bottom lines on the ledgers. Guess who is behind that? You and me as owners of stock (either directly or via mutual fund) in said oil companies. So, just who is to blame? An interesting question indeed.
A couple of observations - Senator Feinstein writes a letter to major oil company CEOs complaining about gasoline prices. Then she closes with "Please know I continue to watch gasoline prices in California and the rest of the nation closely and expect to see retail gasoline prices reflect declining crude oil prices in the very near future." She expects to see falling gasoline prices? Puh-leeze, lady. Boy she really has me afraid and shaking.
And in one of the other URLs it mentions oil company profits as a result of M&As. Guess who is behind that? Wall Street analysts that want to see improved bottom lines on the ledgers. Guess who is behind that? You and me as owners of stock (either directly or via mutual fund) in said oil companies. So, just who is to blame? An interesting question indeed.AndyVecsey said:
I did not realize you were looking for proof of that. I actually agree with you that this is not what is happening. I don't think they are jacking their prices randomly. I think they are doing it in a very calculated way. Any time there is something in the news that they can blame, they raise the prices, even if the specific event has no effect on their costs.
The oil companies are raising prices far beyond their increase in costs. That is why they have record profits. This by definition is price gouging.
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Case Closed
Opening thread complains about high gasoline prices.
Several threads later you say (or infer) oil companies are jacking prices on a whim.....however, you did not stipulate crude prices or gasoline prices.
I challenged you to prove it.
You asked me what kind of proof would satisfy you and I provided examples. Unfortunately, your website links provide no answer for our question at hand.
We exchanged volleys and along the way, in one post your context is about crude prices but it is about gasoline prices in a different thread. Which is it?
Then you eventually agree with my initial point - oil companies are not randomly jacking prices. If you were gonna agree with me, why not do it in the first place and have to put the two of us through all this?
Just when I thought it was settling down you wrote "The oil companies are raising prices far beyond their increase in costs. That is why they have record profits." To which I have two things to say (a) another component of profit is reducing operating cost, which contributes greatly to the bottom line via M-n-A's (b) you are wrong about the oil companies raising crude prices.....the marketplace (that's you and me and every person on this planet that needs hydrocarbon energy in one form or another) dictates the price, the oil companies just get what the market will support.
So if you really want to convince me, the onus is on you to quantify and substantiate what is considered excessive price increase to cover far beyond (as you put it) an oil company's cost. But to save you some research time, be sure to read my recommended book "The Color of Oil" and it will be very clear afterwards.
Opening thread complains about high gasoline prices.
Several threads later you say (or infer) oil companies are jacking prices on a whim.....however, you did not stipulate crude prices or gasoline prices.
I challenged you to prove it.
You asked me what kind of proof would satisfy you and I provided examples. Unfortunately, your website links provide no answer for our question at hand.
We exchanged volleys and along the way, in one post your context is about crude prices but it is about gasoline prices in a different thread. Which is it?
Then you eventually agree with my initial point - oil companies are not randomly jacking prices. If you were gonna agree with me, why not do it in the first place and have to put the two of us through all this?
Just when I thought it was settling down you wrote "The oil companies are raising prices far beyond their increase in costs. That is why they have record profits." To which I have two things to say (a) another component of profit is reducing operating cost, which contributes greatly to the bottom line via M-n-A's (b) you are wrong about the oil companies raising crude prices.....the marketplace (that's you and me and every person on this planet that needs hydrocarbon energy in one form or another) dictates the price, the oil companies just get what the market will support.
So if you really want to convince me, the onus is on you to quantify and substantiate what is considered excessive price increase to cover far beyond (as you put it) an oil company's cost. But to save you some research time, be sure to read my recommended book "The Color of Oil" and it will be very clear afterwards.
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