Yeah but those aero rotors only fit NA1
Are Stoptech up to it?
- Thread starter sparky
- Start date
Yeah but those aero rotors only fit NA1
I don't know, if NA2 brake replacement is not as effective as the na1 aftermarket setup, then why not just change the caliper as well?
I thought i read somewhere that the 02 nsxR use the old NA1 caliper??
I have to find the flange that the hose attaches to. Where did you get yours?
There is a difference between the NA1 vs. NA2 calipers in terms of piston size but the biggest difference is the size of the rotors. NA2 is bigger in diameter.
It seems the only option for NA2 alum hat rotors is the RB unit. Perhaps there are some JDM out there too... with JDM prices...
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I thought Brembo actually bought out AP Racing but allowed AP to continue under their brand.
please correct me if I'm wrong.
please correct me if I'm wrong.
The RB would be a great solution normally for NA2 and NA1, especially NA2. I bought some... its cost effective, larger rotor, fits under factory wheels, no spacer needed, you can keep your calipers and e-brake setup... then Billy killed a set racing and recommended against them and that was that for me. He probably drives 10X harder than me in a car that is 5X faster than mine but still... brakes are not something I ever want to worry about when I am doing 140 on a track.
I thought about a stoptech front only kit, but then got a lot of grief for it by some members here. But Billy seems to think you can make it work fine with factory rears and I think some are using them that way. I am going to keep using my factory ones until I am fast enough to need more.
I thought about a stoptech front only kit, but then got a lot of grief for it by some members here. But Billy seems to think you can make it work fine with factory rears and I think some are using them that way. I am going to keep using my factory ones until I am fast enough to need more.
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I'm running Brembo front and OEM rear and it's great. No fade what so ever, and with PFC01 front and Cobalt Friction XR3 rear the bite and pedal feel is awesome. I really have no desire to spend another $3k to add BBK rear & ebrake. When it's time to replace the rear rotor, I might go ahead and switch to the RB +2 on the rear. But I am really happy with BBK front and OEM rear.
The rotor failure was on a ~2,800lb 250bhp Grand-Am Acura TSX "ST" car. Frequent cracking, poor brake pedal feel and consistency of their NSX caliper/rotor upgrade was on the Factor X Modified-Class NSX (~500whp and 2,900lbs). The biggest problem was the poor service, response, and handling of these issues which was prevalent from the NSX to the TSX programs.
Many are doing the upgraded front/stock rear and its working well. Like I said, you'll probably never fade them, BUT the ideal balance is slightly compromised. In short - reducing 100% brake ability (which most people aren't at anyway) for basically zero fade issues. For many people, this option fits perfectly. If you want 100% ability/performance, then upgrade to a properly (piston) sized system like Performance Friction or Stoptech's F&R systems. *Brembo's "GT" or "motorsports" (Indy) system has the same piston sizes front and rear and is NOT sized/balanced for the NSX any more (and probably worse) than a front system alone.
0.02
Billy two things:
1) when can I get you to come out and instruct for me and liquid.
2) I feel performance does not always make me faster. What makes me faster is confidence. For example when I went from my RT615's to Dunlop Z1's, I got a lot faster because the car felt better. I felt more confident. I am wondering if the same thing applies to brakes. Are there effects on brakes that would give me better "feel" and make me more comfortable braking? Right now, I do start to get some slight vibration after repeated braking at the end of straights... I don't know what it is... it's very minor but it makes me a bit uneasy... I am not sure I have ever experienced fade, but I am telling you it would creep me out and I'd have my left arm out the window to pit in at the next lap. LOL... I am a bit of a girl when it comes to that... I mean... wimp... no offense to any girls that track their cars, they are awesome.
So does a serious BBK give better feel? That alone would make me faster. A nice progressive pedal, feedback from the car, etc. Or... is the OEM NA2 better than in this respect? Is a steel caliper heavier but better in this respect? There must be some advantage to it if so many OEM's use it instead of aluminum.
You know one question I have never asked... and I should make a post on this... is what mods give better feel. Nevermind more ultimate performance. I know right now... my seat needs to be better. My 3 point belt is probably not helping. My thighs get sore because I am bracing myself so much. I am using the steering wheel and my arms to balance my torso. I am getting less feedback from the car. There is "space" between me and the car. I don't like it. Not too many people ever talk about this but that "connection" is what allows me to learn better, and be faster. How can I learn when half my energy is spent trying to figure out what is going on. I took my cousin's AMG for a spin and I have to say if I was driving that car I'd be the slowest on the track because the steering was so numb I felt like I was driving in mud.
I hope I am not hijacking the thread but can we talk about brake feel a bit?
1) when can I get you to come out and instruct for me and liquid.
2) I feel performance does not always make me faster. What makes me faster is confidence. For example when I went from my RT615's to Dunlop Z1's, I got a lot faster because the car felt better. I felt more confident. I am wondering if the same thing applies to brakes. Are there effects on brakes that would give me better "feel" and make me more comfortable braking? Right now, I do start to get some slight vibration after repeated braking at the end of straights... I don't know what it is... it's very minor but it makes me a bit uneasy... I am not sure I have ever experienced fade, but I am telling you it would creep me out and I'd have my left arm out the window to pit in at the next lap. LOL... I am a bit of a girl when it comes to that... I mean... wimp... no offense to any girls that track their cars, they are awesome.
So does a serious BBK give better feel? That alone would make me faster. A nice progressive pedal, feedback from the car, etc. Or... is the OEM NA2 better than in this respect? Is a steel caliper heavier but better in this respect? There must be some advantage to it if so many OEM's use it instead of aluminum.
You know one question I have never asked... and I should make a post on this... is what mods give better feel. Nevermind more ultimate performance. I know right now... my seat needs to be better. My 3 point belt is probably not helping. My thighs get sore because I am bracing myself so much. I am using the steering wheel and my arms to balance my torso. I am getting less feedback from the car. There is "space" between me and the car. I don't like it. Not too many people ever talk about this but that "connection" is what allows me to learn better, and be faster. How can I learn when half my energy is spent trying to figure out what is going on. I took my cousin's AMG for a spin and I have to say if I was driving that car I'd be the slowest on the track because the steering was so numb I felt like I was driving in mud.
I hope I am not hijacking the thread but can we talk about brake feel a bit?
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You bring up a ton of good points. Let me see:
The Z1's have a lot more feel than the old 615s, communicate more, and are outright faster. I'd agree with your comments and YES the same thing can apply to brakes.
There are effects that can make the brakes "feel" better and be more confidence inspiring. While i'm not sure about your slight vibrations/shudder, it could be uneven pad deposits from a variety of reasons - improper bed-in, poor brake technique, pad material on the rotor from a prior pad compound, poor quality pad, and the possibilities go on and on...
On another note: A low quality caliper can flex and lead to a spongy pedal when the brake pressure (which can exceed 1,300psi) deflects the caliper and does not transfer that force into the pad to slow the car down. Also a poorly designed caliper will be more prone to caliper heat soak - boiling the brake fluid and even worsening the flexing issue of the weak caliper. A poor quality rotor can be un-balanced, not cool evenly (provoking shudder), not cool efficiently, etc... The possible problems go on and on - and can be seen by many products on the market that do not compete at a level like Alcon, AP, Brembo, Performance Friction, StopTech.
A reputable and high quality caliper should improve the consistency and feel you're looking for. But again (as a disclaimer): "feel" is subjective and these are general guidelines.
Cost, cost, cost. Unfortunately. Heck, many of the 'proper' brake systems on OEM vehicles, many of which with well known brand names, are built and even designed by a different brake manufacturer which casts their own brand in the caliper itself with the 'reputable' brand's logo on the caliper. All marketing.
I hate the way I sound in this video, I sound like a broken record, but you'll get the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDuKHjEN8Bs
In short: YES, comfort is key! Seating position (height, recline, reach of the steering wheel -need leverage especially in non-PS NSXs to turn the wheel), **Seat support** (KEY) -so you feel what the cars doing and not bracing yourself the whole time, pedal position, harness holding you in, hand position, etc...
I'd say the biggest things you can do which WILL make you faster is to get a good race seat. Not the showy thick cushiony seats like I see some people use but one with a lot of side support. I really like the Recaro Pole Position (or Downforce NSX-R Replica) and remove the bottom butt cushion - or put a thinner one in. Sparco EVO is also a good choice.
Steering wheel size and position (close) to you would be the second most important thing. These two will make a night and day world of a difference in enjoyment, feel, experience, and SPEED.
Billy
Email me dates and we will work something out. Or call me.
Absolutely confidence affects pretty much every driver to a certain degree. We are all human and it's impossible to be 100% perfect. But professionals get a lot closer to 100% compared to less experienced drivers - through experience, comfort, confidence, ability, etc...
The Z1's have a lot more feel than the old 615s, communicate more, and are outright faster. I'd agree with your comments and YES the same thing can apply to brakes.
There are effects that can make the brakes "feel" better and be more confidence inspiring. While i'm not sure about your slight vibrations/shudder, it could be uneven pad deposits from a variety of reasons - improper bed-in, poor brake technique, pad material on the rotor from a prior pad compound, poor quality pad, and the possibilities go on and on...
A BBK might be able to deliver the improved "feel" you're looking for. First off, a BBK has a larger diameter rotor (usually 13" for the NSX) which greatly improves the torque/lever arm of the caliper on the wheel and thus the ability to slow down. The larger rotor will require less brake pressure and effort to make the same stop. You won't have to put your foot through the floor to slow the car down, it will take much less pressure to do so. Depending on the brand and caliper piston sizes, more piston area will also increase the braking force of the system with a similar result. The larger surface area of the rotor with more cooling vanes will dissipate heat better with less fade. Overall, the increased capacity and torque on the brakes from a high quality respectable company should result in an improvement.
On another note: A low quality caliper can flex and lead to a spongy pedal when the brake pressure (which can exceed 1,300psi) deflects the caliper and does not transfer that force into the pad to slow the car down. Also a poorly designed caliper will be more prone to caliper heat soak - boiling the brake fluid and even worsening the flexing issue of the weak caliper. A poor quality rotor can be un-balanced, not cool evenly (provoking shudder), not cool efficiently, etc... The possible problems go on and on - and can be seen by many products on the market that do not compete at a level like Alcon, AP, Brembo, Performance Friction, StopTech.
A reputable and high quality caliper should improve the consistency and feel you're looking for. But again (as a disclaimer): "feel" is subjective and these are general guidelines.
OEM steel sliding calipers are no comparison for a properly engineered, lighter, aluminum, opposing piston caliper (4pot, 6pot,...). The advantage of the steel sliding caliper is COST. You'd be surprised to hear the sacrifices made to production vehicles for a $50 manufacturing cost reduction. When we as consumers would be willing to pay $100 for a given improvement and don't understand why OEMs do this when we would easily pay $100 on top of a $30-50K car, but $50 x 100,000 units - things look a bit differently.
Cost, cost, cost. Unfortunately. Heck, many of the 'proper' brake systems on OEM vehicles, many of which with well known brand names, are built and even designed by a different brake manufacturer which casts their own brand in the caliper itself with the 'reputable' brand's logo on the caliper. All marketing.
A lot of key words in there.
I hate the way I sound in this video, I sound like a broken record, but you'll get the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDuKHjEN8Bs
In short: YES, comfort is key! Seating position (height, recline, reach of the steering wheel -need leverage especially in non-PS NSXs to turn the wheel), **Seat support** (KEY) -so you feel what the cars doing and not bracing yourself the whole time, pedal position, harness holding you in, hand position, etc...
I'd say the biggest things you can do which WILL make you faster is to get a good race seat. Not the showy thick cushiony seats like I see some people use but one with a lot of side support. I really like the Recaro Pole Position (or Downforce NSX-R Replica) and remove the bottom butt cushion - or put a thinner one in. Sparco EVO is also a good choice.
Steering wheel size and position (close) to you would be the second most important thing. These two will make a night and day world of a difference in enjoyment, feel, experience, and SPEED.
Billy
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So how is feel in your experience with a front-only BBK like a stoptech front kit using OEM rears?
The problem with the NSX is the e-brake. You buy the BBK front, and rear, and you still need to drop another K on the e-brake.
Can you give some advice on how to adjust your braking points? I'm not really looking at the foot markers very often... I judge by my eye... and then I wind up usually braking too early... So how do you adjust? The car seems to just brake better than I think it can most of the time. I think you mentioned this to me in one of my videos at WGI.
Also does anyone know if the new stoptech caliper is thinner than the ST-40? Doesn't the ST40 require at least a 15mm spacer under factory wheels?
Also Billy you mentioned steering wheel for feel. I have been told by a number of people including john@microsoft a while back the OEM wheel is really a POS for feel... so I am really starting to feel like I should give up on the airbag and just get my seat/harness bar/6 points/ steering wheel. To me these have to all happen at once. That should give me a lot more connectedness to the car.
The problem with the NSX is the e-brake. You buy the BBK front, and rear, and you still need to drop another K on the e-brake.
Can you give some advice on how to adjust your braking points? I'm not really looking at the foot markers very often... I judge by my eye... and then I wind up usually braking too early... So how do you adjust? The car seems to just brake better than I think it can most of the time. I think you mentioned this to me in one of my videos at WGI.
Also does anyone know if the new stoptech caliper is thinner than the ST-40? Doesn't the ST40 require at least a 15mm spacer under factory wheels?
Also Billy you mentioned steering wheel for feel. I have been told by a number of people including john@microsoft a while back the OEM wheel is really a POS for feel... so I am really starting to feel like I should give up on the airbag and just get my seat/harness bar/6 points/ steering wheel. To me these have to all happen at once. That should give me a lot more connectedness to the car.
maybe I can answer a few for you:
yes lighter steering wheel will improve feel and think about laps after laps of driving a heavy steering wheel. Unfortunately, you probably have to try a few to find out which one is best for you. Some of them are thicker, some are actually very skinny(Nardi), the opening also affect the placement of your hand and the sight to dash. Good thing nsx has tilt n telescope, but still it will affect the angles. Not to mention they come in different sizes.
In terms of braking point, I too, not using marker as much at my home track, but only because I already have a lot other reference points. (As to I already program myself of where I apply brake, placement of the car..etc.) But if you really think you could brake deeper, then you should have a mark somewhere at the track and register it, then you can delay your braking point just by foot, then you will see. You can't be greedy there, or else you will crash, but once you past the optimum point, you can tell by how the car react after turn in, will you miss the apex, or do you actually not gaining when you track out. Replaying Video and if you have GPS lap timer, that will help you determine the best approach.
Oh btw, the other approach, and it actually was my turning point as far as my driving skill development goes; is that you can also try not braking later, but lighter, (not meaning by feathering the brakes) but by trying to carry more speed into the corner. Seems like you are at the stage that rely on brakes performance, hard braking into the corner, but by the time you turn, you slow down way too much. If you really thinking about the physics of braking and turning, as nsx being a momentum car, the moment that you felt; "oh, i must have been braking too early" chances are at that moment you could have enter the corner at higher speed, and you would be fine braking at the same 'point'.
yes lighter steering wheel will improve feel and think about laps after laps of driving a heavy steering wheel. Unfortunately, you probably have to try a few to find out which one is best for you. Some of them are thicker, some are actually very skinny(Nardi), the opening also affect the placement of your hand and the sight to dash. Good thing nsx has tilt n telescope, but still it will affect the angles. Not to mention they come in different sizes.
In terms of braking point, I too, not using marker as much at my home track, but only because I already have a lot other reference points. (As to I already program myself of where I apply brake, placement of the car..etc.) But if you really think you could brake deeper, then you should have a mark somewhere at the track and register it, then you can delay your braking point just by foot, then you will see. You can't be greedy there, or else you will crash, but once you past the optimum point, you can tell by how the car react after turn in, will you miss the apex, or do you actually not gaining when you track out. Replaying Video and if you have GPS lap timer, that will help you determine the best approach.
Oh btw, the other approach, and it actually was my turning point as far as my driving skill development goes; is that you can also try not braking later, but lighter, (not meaning by feathering the brakes) but by trying to carry more speed into the corner. Seems like you are at the stage that rely on brakes performance, hard braking into the corner, but by the time you turn, you slow down way too much. If you really thinking about the physics of braking and turning, as nsx being a momentum car, the moment that you felt; "oh, i must have been braking too early" chances are at that moment you could have enter the corner at higher speed, and you would be fine braking at the same 'point'.
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Si
Gold Member, Moderator: General Classified
Keep in mind once you put stoptech on, fitting 235 front would be impossible.
Exactly! Corner Entry, IMHO, is one of the last bastions of driving to master on track. Not easy and requires a bit of intestinal fortitude. Couldn't agree more.
Have you dropped the car as well? If so how much? Those seem like some heavy wheels and tires compared to stock. Is it worth it? So you are running ST40's front, no spacer? what are you running in the rear? I see ho's and sluts. I mean... holes and slots... in the rear discs. You don't rub at all? what are your alignment settings?
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those NT01 were arguably the best track tires in terms of longevity and performance /dollar.
here's the info of the wheels.. http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...ctSize.do?pc=53627&typ=Car/Minivan&tmn=Weapon I have to say it looks great on the black car. just by looking at the picture his car is at least 2 inches lowered.
Si
Gold Member, Moderator: General Classified
Consider it possible.235/40-17s on volk te-37 17x8s with Stoptech ST-40s.
That's really good news, are those +38 in the front? Does it rub on lock to lock and on suspension compression?
The car has DG5 Coilovers with Swift Springs 11k-9k rate. It's lowered about 1.1/2 not 2 inches though. The rims are MB Weapons fronts are 17x8 at 42offset and rears are 18x9 at 38 offset. No spacers are needed for the front ST40 Stoptechs. The rims and tires weigh about 42 lbs each front and 46lbs rears. If you want a great price on those rims and tires go to Discount Tire Direct. I only get a tad of rubbing on the front fender liner clip at a hard turn on track but I kind of bent them up this year so I hope I get nothing now.
So far the Stoptechs have been fine for me I only see about 4 weekend track days a year at Road America 4 mile track high speed and the Stoptechs work awesome I only have fronts. I have been in all four Brembo's on a NSX same track and in my opinion it's not that drastic of a difference compared to mine. To be honest I don't even remember what my rear rotors are I upgraded them from SoS about 4 years ago and are just slotted. Alignment is not to crazy I would have to dig it up but I think Camber is -1.5 front and -2.5 rear and close to spec on other settings. Side note I bought these Stoptechs at least 8 years ago when Dali just got them and the template IMO is not that accurate it reads that my Street Volk GTC's will fit with a 35 offset but I need a 2mm spacer in the fronts to clear the Stoptechs. I did have to replace my front Stoptech rotors about 4 years ago since they started looking tough about $400 for the front and you just use the old hats simple to change. Pic is street stance with the Volk's. Hope this helps.
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...ctSize.do?pc=53633&tmn=Weapon&typ=Car/Minivan
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Si
Gold Member, Moderator: General Classified
Thanks for sharing the info, so it seems 235 would fit, but I'll rub? 
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