Apple Macbook Pro 17'' vs. Dell Studio XPS 16''

[Malibu Rapper]

This is a huge fallacy. The reason why Macs have almost nil viruses has to do with the way the OS is designed.

Oh really? Can you explain to me why the Mac OS is less susceptible to viruses? I'm a technical guy so I can understand.

one word on hp laptops... JUNK

I have one and when the keyboard failed i learned it is a 500.00 repair b/c the keyboard is hard wired to the motherboard. NO other laptop does this. this is like having to replace the engine in your nsx becuase it cannot be disconected when your alternator breaks.

Try $1200 to fix a Mac because the logic board dies, they are known lemons. If an HP laptop costs $500 to repair, buy a new one. Simple as that. There are many sub $500 HP laptops loaded so I don't know which laptop you are trying to fix but if it's $500 to fix a keyboard, let me know the model number and I can put you in touch with an HP rep immediately.

That's really the only cases. the whole mac vs pc thing is dumb because a mac is a pc and has the same chipset. people really mean osx vs windows.

Truest post yet. But the one caveat is that Apple actually designs their own pc board layouts and hardware somewhat. They use the basic PC foundation but they make both smart and stupid design decisions. But very true in fact that Macs are PCs just running a different OS.

 

[NetViper]

The best thing about MAC is the advertising. They do a great job of making you think you want one.

 

[lrsudog]

For normal computing it's all about which OS you are most comfortable with.

The biggest thing I have against Macs are the cost for buying a laptop that you will only use for basic computing, and the lack of availability of software for certain tasks.

The first problem can be solved by buying a netbook instead of an ibook and installing leopard on it as a dual boot with XP...

..Which also solves the second problem nicely. You end up with a perfectly capable notebook that runs OS X for less than $500, and a notebook that runs most any PC software.


As far as viruses go, I do not care if it is more resistant to viruses (it's not), or if it is simply not worth it to write a virus for 3% of the computer using world. It doesn't matter if you leave the keys in the ignition of your 1987 Sentra; it will still be in your driveway in the morning, ready to take you to work.

 

[NetViper]

The first problem can be solved by buying a netbook instead of an ibook and installing leopard on it as a dual boot with XP....

I hear you can do that with the new Dell Netbooks nicel -- but they have very limited HD space.

 

[lrsudog]

I hear you can do that with the new Dell Netbooks nicel -- but they have very limited HD space.

Anything with the Atom chipset would probably work if you are savvy.

The Aspire one and the MSI Wind both work well. The Aspire has a 120 gig HD, which is big enough I figure.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

My sis has a Mini 9. They are quite nice, but the solid state drive in hers isn't very fast but what do you expect for $200. The drives are easy to replace though.

What looks very promising for the Atom is the Nvidia Ion platform. It really frees up the processor and gives it great graphics performance.

 

[sahtt]

I'm about to get another lap top. I don't want to spend too much though given all the good deals going around and that I'll just need it for work. Don't need 50 million gigs either, 40 would be more than enough. I do like bigger monitors though; looking to spend 1000-1500 depending on what I get. Win7 will be the OS. Any recommendations? My current dell needed a lot of repairs while it was still under warranty but it's been a champ otherwise.

 

[quack]

This is a huge fallacy. The reason why Macs have almost nil viruses has to do with the way the OS is designed.

Oh really? Can you explain to me why the Mac OS is less susceptible to viruses? I'm a technical guy so I can understand.

to comment macs ONLY method to stop real viruses is by having system files only accessible as root. Apple disables the root account and the only way to put it in is to insert the install disk to activate the account. So that stops system/kernel level viruses for most people. However user level viruses can easily replicate and destroy user info on a mac just like on PC. all it needs is the users password and mac users enter this daily when they install stuff so they would ignore it if it popped up randomly. point being if losers wanted to write viruses for mac theres nothing stopping them. there is no magic OS stuff. (the os is just BSD and you can even download the os source for free from apple http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html) losers(hackers) just don't write viruses because the number of users is so small comparitively. dont get me wrong mac's rock but blindly repeating what you heard is just lamo.

 

[quack]

the best thing about mac is the advertising. They do a great job of making you think you want one.

+2.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

to comment macs ONLY method to stop real viruses is by having system files only accessible as root. Apple disables the root account and the only way to put it in is to insert the install disk to activate the account. So that stops system/kernel level viruses for most people. However user level viruses can easily replicate and destroy user info on a mac just like on PC. all it needs is the users password and mac users enter this daily when they install stuff so they would ignore it if it popped up randomly. point being if losers wanted to write viruses for mac theres nothing stopping them. there is no magic OS stuff. (the os is just BSD and you can even download the os source for free from apple http://developer.apple.com/opensource/index.html) losers(hackers) just don't write viruses because the number of users is so small comparitively. dont get me wrong mac's rock but blindly repeating what you heard is just lamo.

OS X root access can be and has been compromised before so that doesn't stop viruses.

 

[KSXNSX]

The best thing about MAC is the advertising. They do a great job of making you think you want one.

Quite the contrary for me. I hated the Mac advertising, and for years I just saw it as a cheap gimmick. For those years, I was loyal to my IBM Thinkpad.

What eventually got me was being able to walk into an Apple store, and try a Mac.

First, it was the user interface; the doc, the dashboard features, etc. I loved it, but it wasn't enough to get me to switch over.

Then, it was when I got a chance to play with the new Macbook Pros. The multi-touch trackpad really got me.

Then I started to read more and more about what each system has to offer, and the Apple is clearly superior (for me) in all aspects except for price.

The Apple store was really a brilliant move, enabling most if not all features on their computers.

 

[lrsudog]

I don't really have a dog in the hunt on this one, since I use both the Windows and Mac OS for work, and my work generally requires owning a Mac system, but...


I do find it amusing that one of the arguments being used here against the Mac is that it generally costs much more but does not necessarily provide much greater functionality....

...From a group that owns NSXs rather than say, Corvettes.

 

[Malibu Rapper]

I don't really have a dog in the hunt on this one, since I use both the Windows and Mac OS for work, and my work generally requires owning a Mac system, but...


I do find it amusing that one of the arguments being used here against the Mac is that it generally costs much more but does not necessarily provide much greater functionality....

...From a group that owns NSXs rather than say, Corvettes.

It's the same reason we don't own Ferraris and Lambos. :tongue:

 

[Arshad]

OS X root access can be and has been compromised before so that doesn't stop viruses.

It's not a question of whether root can be compromised. The point is that under XP EVERYTHING is wide open. Anyone can go in and wipe out everything or take over anything with nothing preventing it.

Under OSX, by default, the root account isn't even enabled and even turning it on is non-intuitive so it's not something you'd do by accident. This at the very least prevents the obvious malicious kernel hacks. Having enforceable user/group permissions is helpful -- it's not foolproof, but it's better than being wide open.

Similarly, by default things like file sharing, SSH, HTTP incoming ports are all disabled.

On the flip side, of course there are still plenty of buffer overflow, code injection and other techniques to elevate privileges. And unlike Windows, Apple has not done a good job of putting in a signed driver infrastructure, sandboxing, etc.

Bottom line is that it's not hard to write a virus for the Mac... but it's also not as trivial as writing one for Windows. At the end of the day, I haven't run any kind of anti-malware/spyware or virus SW on my Mac in the past 14 years. I wouldn't even imagine running a Windows based machine without that.

 

[lrsudog]

It's the same reason we don't own Ferraris and Lambos. :tongue:

Is there a computer that looks even better than a Mac and costs even more, but doesn't work half the time?

 

[KSXNSX]

Is there a computer that looks even better than a Mac and costs even more, but doesn't work half the time?

 

[Malibu Rapper]

It's not a question of whether root can be compromised. The point is that under XP EVERYTHING is wide open. Anyone can go in and wipe out everything or take over anything with nothing preventing it.

It'd probably be only fair in this case to compare OS X to Microsoft's latest released OS right? With Vista they fixed a lot of these issues but it took a toll on overall ease of use. I already stated before that OS X was the first system to be hacked during the CanSecWest conference.

Bottom line is that it's not hard to write a virus for the Mac... but it's also not as trivial as writing one for Windows. At the end of the day, I haven't run any kind of anti-malware/spyware or virus SW on my Mac in the past 14 years. I wouldn't even imagine running a Windows based machine without that.

The clever viruses use exploits to infect systems. Every OS has an exploit and your Mac was prone to exploits that Apple already patched or is prone to ones yet to be discovered. The reason why you didn't get infected over the years has more to do with security by obscurity.

I have several boxes that don't run anti-malware on them. It all depends how you use your computer. Browse free porno sites with a vulnerable browser and you're toast. Download keygens, play with pirated torrents and pay the price.

 

[KSXNSX]

Browse free porno sites with a vulnerable browser and you're toast.

 

[Arshad]

It'd probably be only fair in this case to compare OS X to Microsoft's latest released OS right? With Vista they fixed a lot of these issues but it took a toll on overall ease of use. I already stated before that OS X was the first system to be hacked during the CanSecWest conference.

Absolutely. Unfortunately as you said with Vista, they went the opposite extreme and killed user friendliness. It's hard to come up with a good balance.

As far as the CanSecWest exploits, these are ones that they come up with ahead of time. In fact that particular exploit was discovered by that guy a year earlier. So who got exploited first is meaningless. What was more relevant out of this conference was that it was absolutely clear that OSX does not have a lot of the same basic security features that Windows offers to protect against malicious apps with respect to memory protection.

The clever viruses use exploits to infect systems. Every OS has an exploit and your Mac was prone to exploits that Apple already patched or is prone to ones yet to be discovered. The reason why you didn't get infected over the years has more to do with security by obscurity.

I don't buy that -- that's a very small part of it. There's a lot of Mac's out there. An order of magnitude more than let's say the old Commodore Amiga. And yet viruses were pretty rampant on the Amiga... simply because it was a big joke to write a boot-block virus on there so everybody and their mother did it. As I said, there are PLENTY of exploits and holes under OSX. I've got a security background and I've done my fair share of experimentation under various OS's, including OSX, so no argument from me there. Bottom line is that it's more than just security through obscurity. There's a large enough base that the first big virus to come out will get a lot of noteriety so there's plenty of incentive to write one. Regardless of what the reason is, I haven't had to run other crap in the background sucking up my CPU cycles and disk access, and I doubt I'll have to do it in the near future either.

I have several boxes that don't run anti-malware on them. It all depends how you use your computer. Browse free porno sites with a vulnerable browser and you're toast. Download keygens, play with pirated torrents and pay the price.

Let me give you an example. A couple of years ago we setup an XP box here behind our corporate firewall. Walked away from the machine during installation. Came back after a while and there were malware popups all over the screen. I didn't even TOUCH the machine after installation, let alone browse dubious websites. Bottom line is that out of the box, XP is wide open. If you're not running some kind of protection on there then you're not connected to an open network or you're just a masochist. Vista is a lot better, but they've made it so painful that nobody wants to use it.

 

[NSXrebel]

The best thing about MAC is the advertising. They do a great job of making you think you want one.

Obviously not great enough if it hasn't worked on you. Yet. :wink:

I get these kind of comments all the time from my customers. They love the Mac, but when it's time to actually get some work done instead of just dicking around, they run Windows :biggrin:.

Name a specific job that the average user does that can't be done on a Mac. You keep saying "time to actually get some work done", what kind of work are you talking about? Both can do Office, emailing, video/photo/audio editing, web browsing, etc..

depends on what you are doing if you play games get the dell if not then get the mac. If you want to save money get the dell if not get the mac. That's really the only cases. the whole mac vs pc thing is dumb because a mac is a pc and has the same chipset. people really mean osx vs windows.

If you want to play games, get neither, and build your own gaming box. PC games suck anyways, it's all about consoles

I'm about to get another lap top. I don't want to spend too much though given all the good deals going around and that I'll just need it for work. Don't need 50 million gigs either, 40 would be more than enough. I do like bigger monitors though; looking to spend 1000-1500 depending on what I get. Win7 will be the OS. Any recommendations? My current dell needed a lot of repairs while it was still under warranty but it's been a champ otherwise.

It needed a lot of repairs, but it's still a champ? :biggrin: Windows 7 is not even officially out yet btw.

I do find it amusing that one of the arguments being used here against the Mac is that it generally costs much more but does not necessarily provide much greater functionality....

...From a group that owns NSXs rather than say, Corvettes.

werd

It's not a question of whether root can be compromised. The point is that under XP EVERYTHING is wide open. Anyone can go in and wipe out everything or take over anything with nothing preventing it.

Under OSX, by default, the root account isn't even enabled and even turning it on is non-intuitive so it's not something you'd do by accident. This at the very least prevents the obvious malicious kernel hacks. Having enforceable user/group permissions is helpful -- it's not foolproof, but it's better than being wide open.

Similarly, by default things like file sharing, SSH, HTTP incoming ports are all disabled.

On the flip side, of course there are still plenty of buffer overflow, code injection and other techniques to elevate privileges. And unlike Windows, Apple has not done a good job of putting in a signed driver infrastructure, sandboxing, etc.

Bottom line is that it's not hard to write a virus for the Mac... but it's also not as trivial as writing one for Windows. At the end of the day, I haven't run any kind of anti-malware/spyware or virus SW on my Mac in the past 14 years. I wouldn't even imagine running a Windows based machine without that.

Thank you Arshad for explaining it.

Is there a computer that looks even better than a Mac and costs even more, but doesn't work half the time?

No, but there are alot that cost less and work even less than half the time. :biggrin:

It'd probably be only fair in this case to compare OS X to Microsoft's latest released OS right? With Vista they fixed a lot of these issues but it took a toll on overall ease of use. I already stated before that OS X was the first system to be hacked during the CanSecWest conference.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/03/29/mac-shot-first-10-reasons-why-cansecwest-targets-apple/

The clever viruses use exploits to infect systems. Every OS has an exploit and your Mac was prone to exploits that Apple already patched or is prone to ones yet to be discovered. The reason why you didn't get infected over the years has more to do with security by obscurity.

I have several boxes that don't run anti-malware on them. It all depends how you use your computer. Browse free porno sites with a vulnerable browser and you're toast. Download keygens, play with pirated torrents and pay the price.

You don't need to be browsing porno sites to get a virus. The average user doesn't know how to setup their computer to where they don't "need" an antivirus. You sir, are not the average user. What's your email address btw? :biggrin:

 

[NetViper]

Obviously not great enough if it hasn't worked on you. Yet. :wink:

No, but I REALLY REALLY want an iPhone!:biggrin:

 

[Malibu Rapper]

As far as the CanSecWest exploits, these are ones that they come up with ahead of time. In fact that particular exploit was discovered by that guy a year earlier. So who got exploited first is meaningless. What was more relevant out of this conference was that it was absolutely clear that OSX does not have a lot of the same basic security features that Windows offers to protect against malicious apps with respect to memory protection.

I agree. The technical details behind how it was done though carry less weight than the symbolism of the Mac being pwned first. Apple with their clever advertising irresponsibly tells users that they won't get viruses and tries to make them think that they are more secure.

I've got a security background and I've done my fair share of experimentation under various OS's, including OSX, so no argument from me there. Bottom line is that it's more than just security through obscurity. There's a large enough base that the first big virus to come out will get a lot of noteriety so there's plenty of incentive to write one. Regardless of what the reason is, I haven't had to run other crap in the background sucking up my CPU cycles and disk access, and I doubt I'll have to do it in the near future either.

I still do have a security background and appreciate your expertise in this discussion. Some people hold the same opinion as yourself and some have the same as mine. We'll just disagree on this point.

Let me give you an example. A couple of years ago we setup an XP box here behind our corporate firewall. Walked away from the machine during installation. Came back after a while and there were malware popups all over the screen. I didn't even TOUCH the machine after installation, let alone browse dubious websites. Bottom line is that out of the box, XP is wide open. If you're not running some kind of protection on there then you're not connected to an open network or you're just a masochist. Vista is a lot better, but they've made it so painful that nobody wants to use it.

Yes, out of the box XP is very vulnerable. XP is an OS that was geared for ease of use and productivity. It's so easy and wide open that people still prefer XP to more secure OSes like Vista or even OS X. If you've administered systems at corporations, you'll know that unless you make your systems wide open, you'll get a ton of calls at the helpdesk. Hence desktop users are given root level credentials at most corporations.

One of my clients had me setup his home computer, it's actually running XP. He has a simple wired router and I have it setup for automatic updates. At the law office, his computer is always the most pristine and fast running computer because he limits himself to just using what is on the computer. His internet usage is business only. He doesn't install any software, ever. At the office, I've never gotten any malware or virus entries in the logs from his box. The secretaries who are always goofing off help pay my bills by surfing the malicious sites and installing malware. But his computer at home is treated the same way, no antivirus and it's 5 years old and healthy as a horse. Still runs speedy!

You don't need to be browsing porno sites to get a virus. The average user doesn't know how to setup their computer to where they don't "need" an antivirus. You sir, are not the average user. What's your email address btw? :biggrin:

nsxrebel @ yahoo.com Anyhow, I am not the average user, correct. But I thought it would be a good segway to bring up another point in the Mac v PC debate. A lot of really technical people consider Mac users to be dumb and being technically challenged. In fact, I've found Mac users to be more technical than the average PC user. So much so that they become arrogant. Your average Windows user is actually pretty lame, trust me. But the other day at Fry's I saw an Apple bigot try to talk a lady into buying a Mac. He tried telling her that they are immune to viruses and such and she told him that in all her years of using Windows she never once got a virus. At any rate, he was trying to be persuasive as he could and struggled to get her to buy a Mac. I just smile and bite my tongue in these situations...

I still love Windows 7! Don't forget to download the RC!

 

[NSXrebel]

nsxrebel @ yahoo.com Anyhow, I am not the average user, correct. But I thought it would be a good segway to bring up another point in the Mac v PC debate. A lot of really technical people consider Mac users to be dumb and being technically challenged. In fact, I've found Mac users to be more technical than the average PC user. So much so that they become arrogant. Your average Windows user is actually pretty lame, trust me. But the other day at Fry's I saw an Apple bigot try to talk a lady into buying a Mac. He tried telling her that they are immune to viruses and such and she told him that in all her years of using Windows she never once got a virus. At any rate, he was trying to be persuasive as he could and struggled to get her to buy a Mac. I just smile and bite my tongue in these situations...

I still love Windows 7! Don't forget to download the RC!

Yahoo mail sucks

I just finished burning a Windows 7 install disk. Will be installing over Vista, which was meh. Will report back later tonight.

 

[lazynok]

I still love Windows 7! Don't forget to download the RC!

7100 here and loving it!

I installed OS X on a different hard drive last night and wow... I don't know how people use that...

 

[NSXrebel]

7100 here and loving it!

I installed OS X on a different hard drive last night and wow... I don't know how people use that...

Windows 7 still looks like Vista to me. It does seem to work better though. Meh, I'll be sticking with OSX, works for me. :smile: