Another interesting piece of info on the Spoon R

[BD]

First off, whether you take this seriously or not, it's up to you.


I had interesting conversation with a very close friend today who is well connected with JDM companies such as Spoon and 5Ziggan. I learned some interesting “facts” about the Spoon R.

Honda had about 50 NSX chassis left and they wanted to move them. Spoon was offered the chassis and they accepted the deal. The rumor has, Mugen took some too (Mugen RR??).

However, there were parts Honda refuse to produce more of, so Spoon had to use some of their after market parts as well as gathering used parts to complete this type R (Yes, there are old NSXs in Japan that were scrapped for soda cans and still have their parts available).

Since few in Japan shown interest in buying a new NSX made by some one other than Honda, Spoon decided to market this car differently by presenting/creating the cars as LHD Type R for US. In fact, they didn’t even know if they can find a buyer for their project.

To keep their cost down, C30A was chosen as the main engine instead of C32B; apparently, Honda has more C30A engine available. Also Spoon had to market the car with their own A/M parts such as brakes to make this package more attractive even though some people still desire NSX-R footware.

If I remember correctly, when the car was advertised, not all NA2 Type R parts were available for the Spoon R.

My friend also mentioned after witnessing the first two cars they made, the panels did not line up properly, and the entire car was assembled at Spoon factory, not Honda.

As previously indicated by other Primers, Spoon like to push for new cars, but if you have a car here in the States, they can convert it too as much as possible.

There was other stuff not worth mention.

Basically, the impression I got from my friend was that the car's fit and finish is really not up to the Honda standard. I do hope that is not the case as they improve the workmanship when the orders start to pile in.

I'm curious what Mugen is going to do with RR model since they acquired some chassis too. I trust Mugen just as much as Honda as a company.

As for my personal thoughts, I just want them to be able to sell NSX-R parts at a more realistic price. The uniqueness of owning a NSX-R look a like is a thing of the past, why not offer genuine NSX-R parts through a proper channel?

 

[Jetpilot3]

As for my personal thoughts, I just want them to be able to sell NSX-R parts at a more realistic price. The uniqueness of owning a NSX-R look a like is a thing of the past, why not offer genuine NSX-R parts through a proper channel?

The minute someone takes this comment seriously (SOS, Spoon, Mugen, Dali, etc) they will make a killing due to demand.

I for one would love to make my Imola one of the few if only Type R Replicas but the cost is so prohibitive. We all want the performance and functionality but when it means paying the equivalent of another NSX then its not feasible.

Big name Type R items that we all want:

1. Seats
2. Wheels
3. Suspension

If the price came down we'd all be laughing and so would the vendor(s) selling it.

 

[BD]

They key question is are they going to be able to sell them for less than the price in Japan.

Keep in mind that NA2 NSX R Parts in Japan is priced:
Wheel: 800,000 yen
Suspension: 360,000 Yen
Seats: 1,200,000 Yen

The regular NSX parts are in line in terms of pricing as USDM cars.

So if they get the sell the regular NSX-R parts cheaper in the US, does that means we get to "export" those parts to Japanese buyers?:biggrin:

I don't think that will happen; however, I think they will make it more accessible.

 

[Silver F16]

What Vance said is consistent with what I learned about the Spoon NSX. I think Vance is doing the right thing by putting together your own NSX-R thru bolt ons.

For all those interested, I want to reiterate that assembling a production car from scratch is no easy feat even for Spoon.

Honda, as with all manufacturers has a pain staking elaborate processes and equipment for sub and final assembly.

Spoon is getting a painted chassis from Honda and getting parts some of which are not new. As indicated, some of the chassis is old. The trick of final assembly is huge. Running wire harnesses, aligning body panels, fitting interior trim, carpet. I'm sure spoon knows how to put together drivetrain, brakes, and suspension, but what about all the other systems on production cars where attention to detail is paramount.

Spoon's expertise is on building race cars, not building production cars. Any auto company's production process and procedure are extremely extensive and don't easily discount why these process exists. They are there to ensure miticulous attention to all assembly details. Does Spoon have all these process and procedures? A race car assembler has minimal concern for NVH that may concern a production car. Same for things such as how the body panels line up and how the interior trimming are put together. Honda uses Decron coated screws for many assembly panels to prevent dissimilar metal corrsion. Does Spoon uses these speciality screws? Are all components assembled to the proper torque spec as specified. There are literally hundreds or thousands of bolt or screws that are torqued to pre-determined spec. All these tools at the factory have pre-established torque values. Does Spoon use these torque values on all the assembly processes? Are the wire harness routed in the same location and mounted in the same manner as Honda's specification to prevent vibration induced failure or squeaks and rattles? These are just examples. There are many more.

The point is, Auto assembly is extremely process driven to ensure upmost quality to meet exacting standards. Go work for an Automaker or see an entire production line and see the elaborate process and equipment and have someone explain to you why it needs to be done in that manner with that equipment and you'll understand. Just because Spoon knows how to put together a racing NSX, does not mean it knows how to put together a production NSX to the same exacting standards as Honda's. Not withstanding the variables of using some old parts. For all this, just remember the only warranty that is available is a 2 year warranty on engine and transmission. There is no warranty on anything else. This is not to say don't buy the Spoon NSX. Rather, one should better understand Spoon's process, perhaps see it in person hence they can align their expectation for their $120K+ vehicle.

 

[swerve2007]

^^^+1
there is a huge diff between a race car and a production one that needs to live for years without squeeks and rattles.

 

[WingZ]

Hmm interesting as Spoon is saying the opposite of your source Vance

Honda is building the entire thing and then it goes to Spoon where they add their own enhancements. What parts were refused? You don't have to take the Spoon brakes or suspension if you don't want them and that's straight from Spoon. They'll do the entire thing as an NSX-R GT unless requested otherwise.

You can choose either 3.0 , 3.2 or a 3.5 and Honda is building the engine not Spoon. I'm still trying to get info on the 3.5 as it's not a Spoon bored out engine it comes from Honda as 3.5

Also Spoon is only doing five cars as that's all Honda had for them to get at this point.

Phase 2 Which would be the conversion of current US cars hasn't even started yet as until the five cars are sold that's on hold.

No offense Vance but your sources facts are in direct contradiction to what Spoon is saying. Also since the NSX replacement was canceled NSX-R demand has gone up causing a 30-40% in the asking price in Japan of the original 3.2 from the factory and Spoon is getting requests for info on their car in Japan and a few other countries.

The red car shown in the vid doesn't seem improperly assembled. Here are pics sent to me from Spoon when they had the car on display at the 2009 TAS.

 

[WingZ]

What Vance said is consistent with what I learned about the Spoon NSX. I think Vance is doing the right thing by putting together your own NSX-R thru bolt ons.

For all those interested, I want to reiterate that assembling a production car from scratch is no easy feat even for Spoon.

Honda, as with all manufacturers has a pain staking elaborate processes and equipment for sub and final assembly.

Spoon is getting a painted chassis from Honda and getting parts some of which are not new. As indicated, some of the chassis is old. The trick of final assembly is huge. Running wire harnesses, aligning body panels, fitting interior trim, carpet. I'm sure spoon knows how to put together drivetrain, brakes, and suspension, but what about all the other systems on production cars where attention to detail is paramount.

Spoon's expertise is on building race cars, not building production cars. Any auto company's production process and procedure are extremely extensive and don't easily discount why these process exists. They are there to ensure miticulous attention to all assembly details. Does Spoon have all these process and procedures? A race car assembler has minimal concern for NVH that may concern a production car. Same for things such as how the body panels line up and how the interior trimming are put together. Honda uses Decron coated screws for many assembly panels to prevent dissimilar metal corrsion. Does Spoon uses these speciality screws? Are all components assembled to the proper torque spec as specified. There are literally hundreds or thousands of bolt or screws that are torqued to pre-determined spec. All these tools at the factory have pre-established torque values. Does Spoon use these torque values on all the assembly processes? Are the wire harness routed in the same location and mounted in the same manner as Honda's specification to prevent vibration induced failure or squeaks and rattles? These are just examples. There are many more.

The point is, Auto assembly is extremely process driven to ensure upmost quality to meet exacting standards. Go work for an Automaker or see an entire production line and see the elaborate process and equipment and have someone explain to you why it needs to be done in that manner with that equipment and you'll understand. Just because Spoon knows how to put together a racing NSX, does not mean it knows how to put together a production NSX to the same exacting standards as Honda's. Not withstanding the variables of using some old parts. For all this, just remember the only warranty that is available is a 2 year warranty on engine and transmission. There is no warranty on anything else. This is not to say don't buy the Spoon NSX. Rather, one should better understand Spoon's process, perhaps see it in person hence they can align their expectation for their $120K+ vehicle.

Silver where did you learn these things about the Spoon car? Also what are these used parts?

I only ask so that if this speculation/second hand info that you and Vance are putting out here ( which I honestly don't have a problem with ) is valid we have some way of confirming it and making before making a decision to buy one.

Thanks!

 

[Silver F16]

I've had several dialogues with Edmun and the information he provided initally was sketch, probably because he didn't have all the answers. When I followed up and probed further, he was able to confirm that parts came from Honda NOT ASSEMBLED. The bare chassis is shipped to Spoon for assembly. Honda does paint the chassis prior to shipping to Spoon. Furthermore, he indicated chassis are from 1992 and up.

When I said old parts, I was referring to the 1992 chassis. I don't want us to confuse the difference between old and used.
However, Honda-tuning was the first to post that Spoon is using some used parts. You have seen this post below.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113152&page=2

What Honda-tuning posted is consistent with the information I gathered. And it seems like Vance's source is also consistent.

 

[A.S. Motorsport]

I contacted Mugen about the RR,
I spoke with a some people from the Marketing & Export at Mugen,

They said the Mugen RR was just a show car (i'm guessing marketing/PR),
And that they head no plans of producing anything from the RR Concept car.

 

[Silver F16]

I also inquired if the engine are NSX-R engines from Honda or regular NSX engines blueprinted by Spoon.

It appears they are not NSX-R engines from Honda, although it will have the NSX-R ECU. The difference lies in the balancing and blueprinting done by Honda versus Spoon.

I do not know Spoon's process for balancing. However, Honda balances NSX-R engines are done prior to the engine being assembled. I don't know how Spoon would do this unless they tear apart the engines.

Pistons and connection rods tolerance are half that of regular NSX engines. "Crankcase-side and engine block-side main journal diameters are measured, and those having the same bearing metal thickness are combined to increase metal clearance precision and reduce friction". Bearings with the same metal thickness are combined for assembly to the same engine.

Basically, parts like Cranks, pistons, and rods with similar clearnances and weights matched together in the same engine. In addition, tolerance of engine components are dramatically minimzie to ensure the spining engine revs freely with minimal power robbing off balanced oscillations. This is blueprinting. I do not believe Spoon does the blueprinting since the non-NSXr engines does not have tighter tolerance to begin with.

Balancing on the other hand is drilling off metal on the counterweights. Spoon does this as it is also done on the Honda NSX-R engine only after it is blue printed.

You can read all about Honda's process for NSX-R engine here. It is a very painstaking process

http://world.honda.com/NSX/technology/t5.html

 

[WingZ]

I've had several dialogues with Edmun and the information he provided initally was sketch, probably because he didn't have all the answers. When I followed up and probed further, he was able to confirm that parts came from Honda NOT ASSEMBLED. The bare chassis is shipped to Spoon for assembly. Honda does paint the chassis prior to shipping to Spoon. Furthermore, he indicated chassis are from 1992 and up.

When I said old parts, I was referring to the 1992 chassis. I don't want us to confuse the difference between old and used.
However, Honda-tuning was the first to post that Spoon is using some used parts. You have seen this post below.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113152&page=2

What Honda-tuning posted is consistent with the information I gathered. And it seems like Vance's source is also consistent.

Agreed details from Edmun were initially sketchy but he does have much better info now that the first car is completed.

Well since the chassis has just been sitting in storage there no wear on it as it's never been painted or had any weight applied to it other than construction.

What Honda-Tuning said was that the door panels looked like they came off an old worn out 91 ,but he started his whole topic by saying that they were in the "process of assembling" so it's possible ( Honda-Tuning did not ask ) that those panels were in so as not to get the NA2 R panels dirty. These cars have the NA2 interior that is the rubber matte or whatever that material truly is on all the interior panels. You can go in 42 secs on this vid and see they're not worn out
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G_qL_5WoI8g&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G_qL_5WoI8g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Actually to me Vances source sounds like people who were saying the hood didn't fit properly on the youtube vid because it was left ajar and not completely closed.

I posted pics in my first reply did you see any ill fitting panels there? This is a pretty large purchase so people here ( myself included ) want to make sure that stuff like this is addressed before a purchase. It's good to have people who are skeptical so as not to get blindsided , however as the predominate NSX online community we need to be responsible in that information we put out is indeed factual.

Since Vance says these are indeed facts I'm sure he can back it up as he doesn't bash stuff unnecessarily that I've ever seen.

I agree whole heartedly that making a race car vs making a production car is indeed different but the people doing this have more intimate knowledge of the car than most shops here not to mention the fact that they have a strong enough relationship with Honda to do this.

The Spoon car has added race enhancements such as over 3000 reinforcements made to the body to strengthen the chassis. I've never heard of tuners here doing such a thing not to say they haven't but I haven't heard of it so I still don't think that tuners here know the car as well as say Spoon or Mugen for that matter when it comes to building them.

The car sounds like it's going to be super durable and much more capable than the NSX-R due to more extensive weight loss and an intimate focus on over coming the OEMs weaknesses that were found while racing it.

 

[WingZ]

I also inquired if the engine are NSX-R engines from Honda or regular NSX engines blueprinted by Spoon.

It appears they are not NSX-R engines from Honda, although it will have the NSX-R ECU. The difference lies in the balancing and blueprinting done by Honda versus Spoon.

I do not know Spoon's process for balancing. However, Honda balances NSX-R engines are done prior to the engine being assembled. I don't know how Spoon would do this unless they tear apart the engines.

Pistons and connection rods tolerance are half that of regular NSX engines. "Crankcase-side and engine block-side main journal diameters are measured, and those having the same bearing metal thickness are combined to increase metal clearance precision and reduce friction". Bearings with the same metal thickness are combined for assembly to the same engine.

Basically, parts like Cranks, pistons, and rods with similar clearnances and weights matched together in the same engine. In addition, tolerance of engine components are dramatically minimzie to ensure the spining engine revs freely with minimal power robbing off balanced oscillations. This is blueprinting. I do not believe Spoon does the blueprinting since the non-NSXr engines does not have tighter tolerance to begin with.

Balancing on the other hand is drilling off metal on the counterweights. Spoon does this as it is also done on the Honda NSX-R engine only after it is blue printed.

You can read all about Honda's process for NSX-R engine here. It is a very painstaking process

http://world.honda.com/NSX/technology/t5.html

Good point but since they're a race shop blue printing and balancing is something they're very specific about as well. Their reputation will be on the line and with a great amount of pride with these cars so I'm sure they will use an exacting process.

Whereas Honda had to make thousands were talking five. It's not a rush process as they take 90 days to build. With three months they have the time to do it right.

Ichishima believes his people are skilled and up to the task or he wouldn't have undertaken it.

Thanks for the links too:biggrin:

 

[BD]

Actually to me Vances source sounds like people who were saying the hood didn't fit properly on the youtube vid because it was left ajar and not completely closed.

Perry, keep in mind that the source "quote" was a friend I know for long time who has dealt and still dealing with the JDM venders.

As for the story from Spoon that Honda is putting the car together, I actually don't buy that because I doubt Honda will want to be liable for something they don't intend to continue.

However, does that mean Spoon as a company will not have access to Honda's facilities to complete this car? I don't know. I like to think Honda will offer assistance to them since it is going to be badged as NSX with legit Honda parts.

I'm interested in this car but I doubt I can afford it. The source told me that he is waiting for the actual US car to be presented before making the decision because he really wanted a Type R, not some home made pretender.

As for the engine, I doubt Honda will prebuilt a 3.5 before ship them out. 3.5 in Japan is know to come from TODA, Mugen and other specialty companies.

That's all I can say, not bashing to praising, just passing the word to you guys.

 

[WingZ]

Perry, keep in mind that the source "quote" was a friend I know for long time who has dealt and still dealing with the JDM venders.

As for the story from Spoon that Honda is putting the car together, I actually don't buy that because I doubt Honda will want to be liable for something they don't intend to continue.

However, does that mean Spoon as a company will not have access to Honda's facilities to complete this car? I don't know. I like to think Honda will offer assistance to them since it is going to be badged as NSX with legit Honda parts.

Must've if one car is completed and the second is being assembled.

I'm interested in this car but I doubt I can afford it.

Quit playing!:biggrin:

I'll have to sell my NSX if I get the Spoon and really don't want to as I've had the old girl since new and spent quite a bit although nowhere near what you and some of the others have done. I really want to kept it though.

The source told me that he is waiting for the actual US car to be presented before making the decision because he really wanted a Type R, not some home made pretender.

As for the engine, I doubt Honda will prebuilt a 3.5 before ship them out. 3.5 in Japan is know to come from TODA, Mugen and other specialty companies.

Drool. I want the 3.5 bad but would Spoon being using an engine from their competitors? Better to just go with the 3.0 and 3.2.

Man a 3.5 tuned to the NSX-R ECU would just be to awesome

That's all I can say, not bashing to praising, just passing the word to you guys.

Appreciate you letting us know as I really like to make an informed purchase and for this price I'd like to make sure I ask as many questions as I can.

 

[BD]

Jason show me the red Spoon NSX-R video at the Tokyo AS, they're using after market Spoiler (No LED) and the vent bucket is from KITE garage.

They should have used OEM parts at the show.

 

[White92]

I've got a question that I can't seem to find anywhere. Is this car street legal? The pictures I've seen don't show airbags.

 

[White92]

I just got off the phone with Edmun to clarify the airbag issue. I'm still confused, but here's basically what he says. The NSX-R did not have airbags and that this is not a "new model" subject to the DOT (National Highway Safety) approval requirement. .

I'm confused on this part. The NSX-R was never sold here. To be sold here in the U.S. wouldn't it need to go through crash testing and have all the safety equipment? Is this not correct?

 

[BD]

I believe Spoon will take care of the registration issues. NSX is still a NSX.

The car is not a new model. Perhaps to be sold under kit car? The revival of the old Shelby Cobra, Cizeta, and Arial Atom don't have AB I believe. Even some of the Ferrari models did not offer air bags till the early and mid 1990's

I'm sure they will have a way to exempt the AB or have at least driver side AB since it was an option in Japan and the one Honda shipped to England was a fully equipped car.

Check this out.

http://jalopnik.com/350064/tesla-roadster-to-get-federal-air-bag-exemption-drive-slowly

http://www.leftlanenews.com/relief-ferrari-430-gets-airbag-exemption.html

 

[White92]

I believe Spoon will take care of the registration issues. NSX is still a NSX.

The car is not a new model. Perhaps to be sold under kit car? The revival of the old Shelby Cobra, Cizeta, and Arial Atom don't have AB I believe. Even some of the Ferrari models did not offer air bags till the early and mid 1990's

I'm sure they will have a way to exempt the AB or have at least driver side AB since it was an option in Japan and the one Honda shipped to England was a fully equipped car.

Check this out.

http://jalopnik.com/350064/tesla-roadster-to-get-federal-air-bag-exemption-drive-slowly



http://www.leftlanenews.com/relief-ferrari-430-gets-airbag-exemption.html

I asked Edmun if it's to be sold as a kit car. He said "no". I trust him, but I'm concerned about the fact that he keeps saying "you should be ok." That's alot of money to spend on a statement like that.

 

[AR]

If the parts are Route KS I feel sorry for the bodyshop personnel, the fitting leaves a lot to be desired. If you look at the crash Spoon, it looks like GRP, not CF. I doubt that Honda would make NSX-R GT parts in GRP.

 

[Silver F16]

In my dialogue, he indicated that they are unsure about the details of the title and registration of the vehicle. Reason he lacked details was because they have not done one yet.

He indicated that they do have the export paperwork.

So it sounds like it is approved for export but the title and registration is still a mystery.

 

[CL65 Captain]

OK, so what's up with Spoon not making a rear brake caliper? Don't understand that if they are making a front. I noticed on the Spoon race NSX that they crashed that it had a Spoon front caliper (blue) and AP racing rear caliper (sliver).

This whole Spoon thing sounds more like a half-ass pieced together deal. I would rather buy a NSX coupe and drop it off at SOS and tell them to make a R with a blank check. You would still come out thousands $ ahead. Yes, it wouldn't be a real type R using real type R parts, but neither is the Spoon.

 

[WingZ]

OK, so what's up with Spoon not making a rear brake caliper? Don't understand that if they are making a front. I noticed on the Spoon race NSX that they crashed that it had a Spoon front caliper (blue) and AP racing rear caliper (sliver).

This whole Spoon thing sounds more like a half-ass pieced together deal. I would rather buy a NSX coupe and drop it off at SOS and tell them to make a R with a blank check. You would still come out thousands $ ahead. Yes, it wouldn't be a real type R using real type R parts, but neither is the Spoon.

Hey Cap I'm curious as to why you and a couple others think SOS can make a Type R?

 

[White92]

Hey Cap I'm curious as to why you and a couple others think SOS can make a Type R?

I think he meant a Type R replica. I've made similar comments as well. For the money, I'd rather get whatever car I wanted, then ship it off to SOS or someplace else. Yes, it would be just another modified car with some NSX-R parts, but so is the Spoon car in my opinion.

 

[WingZ]

I think he meant a Type R replica. I've made similar comments as well. For the money, I'd rather get whatever car I wanted, then ship it off to SOS or someplace else. Yes, it would be just another modified car with some NSX-R parts, but so is the Spoon car in my opinion.

Well but Spoon is offering more OEM stuff than SOS can get a hold of is why I ask. SOS can't offer anything close to what Spoon is selling at this point or are they? I checked the website and I don't see a lot of NSX-R stuff