Am I Getting Ripped Off?

[JRobertScully]

2000 NSXT, 59,000 miles, perfectly maintained, wonderful car, no problems.
Until last month. Check engine light came on in July when planning a road trip. I took it to the dealership and also asked them to check out car prior to the road trip. They suggested checking all of the fluid levels and serviced clutch fluid, brake fluid, coolant. After $500+ bill, took 1200 mile trip to Outer Banks, car ran great. Two weeks after trip, driving home from work, I noticed white smoke out exhaust, and returned to the office (1/2 mile). Noted temp. gauge just going over half-way mark when I parked (first time I had ever seen that). Car drove fine. Checked coolant in morning and it was dry and car was towed to dealership. They told me I needed new head gaskets, quoted me $3800 fee to remove engine (which included new timing belt since the engine was out). Two-and-a-half weeks later was told to "sit down" so they could tell me the news, and that I needed new heads since they were warped and machining did not work. Said I would therefore require new heads at $5100 each. Told them I had never had a problem with coolant since 2000 until they "serviced" fluid levels at last visit. They deny any responsibility. Cannot fathom a perfectly maintained NSX suddenly overheating because of no coolant. $14-15000 bill. Any input or advice on what I should do would be greatly appreciated.
I am afraid of this dealership-do they know what they are doing? Its Apple Tree Acura Asheville, NC. President of NSX Car Club doubted the head gaskets leaked since the temp. gauge wasn't "burried at the top" and the car was still driving fine when I turned it off.

 

[TyraNSX]

Contact Steve Gooding in Raleigh & have car flat bedded to him. Do a search in southeast forum for his name, many positive remarks. stevegooding at bellsouth dot net. Whatever it is, it will cost less than the dealer. Good luck.

 

[davidf]

Something definatly stinks.

 

[otoro]

They suggested checking all of the fluid levels and serviced clutch fluid, brake fluid, coolant. After $500+ bill, took 1200 mile trip to Outer Banks, car ran great. Two weeks after trip, driving home from work, I noticed white smoke out exhaust, and returned to the office (1/2 mile). Noted temp. gauge just going over half-way mark when I parked (first time I had ever seen that). Car drove fine. Checked coolant in morning and it was dry and car was towed to dealership.

I think if the coolant was dry from the service, the car wouldn't have lasted 1200+ miles.

They told me I needed new head gaskets, quoted me $3800 fee to remove engine (which included new timing belt since the engine was out). Two-and-a-half weeks later was told to "sit down" so they could tell me the news, and that I needed new heads since they were warped and machining did not work. Said I would therefore require new heads at $5100 each.

The dealer should have required your permission before any type of 'machining' was performed. 2.5 weeks seems like a long time for a WP/TB service and new gaskets?

Not trying to play devil's advocate here, just trying to make sense of it all.

 

[DrVolkl]

Uh, it would be cheaper to buy a new engine.

Way cheaper. You're getting f'd. FYI, I've never heard of a stock 2000 NSX engine needing such extensive repair.

 

[swerve2007]

even if you had a head-gasket failure, only serious prolonged overheat will warp the heads. sound like whoever was doing the 'machining' f'ked up and they are passing it onto you.

 

[99NCNSX]

Contact Steve Gooding in Raleigh & have car flat bedded to him. Do a search in southeast forum for his name, many positive remarks. stevegooding at bellsouth dot net. Whatever it is, it will cost less than the dealer. Good luck.

+1 on the Steve Gooding recommendation. I would call Steve first and discuss this issue with him. He will probably provide some guidance on a strategy to resolve this. PM me if you need contact information.

By the way, Steve recently replaced some perfectly good heads on a '98 NSX with some modified heads (from 3.5 engine, I believe) for an owner in Pittsboro, NC. Last time I spoke with that owner he still had the heads available for sale.

 

[RFFG]

even if you had a head-gasket failure, only serious prolonged overheat will warp the heads. sound like whoever was doing the 'machining' f'ked up and they are passing it onto you.

Probably.

OP, best of luck.

 

[davidf]

I just realized this is your 1st post. Sorry it had to be an aweful one. Taking your car to a more reputable tech as suggested would be the ticket. I can only assume the engine is out and apart already. Thats alot of loose parts to gather up and move somewhere else only to have a huge tear down labor charge. Make sure you get everything. You may want to have a pro take a look at those heads ASAP for a second opinion.

 

[PDLNSX]

WOW, sorry to hear this story as I am planning on getting an NSX--I thought
these stories only happened at Porsche dealers.

There aren't too many NSX's running around with factory warranty. A lot less a year from now. I would guess ---a total off the wall guess--- no more than
150

 

[docjohn]

Op spend some time on this site looking at used engine prices,also look at some of the threads about other engine failures,leaking head gaskets ect...I think you will find you are getting doinked by this dealer if what you are describing is fact.

 

[TyraNSX]

What did you end up doing & what turned out to be the real problem?

 

[NSXclear]

I'm wondering if the dealer bleed the car correctly. The car can overheat if it is not bleed correctly.

But as some else pointed out, 1200 miles is a lot of miles. The system should have worked itself out by then and gotten the air out.

Or maybe one of your hoses had a small leak and you didn't notice. Did you check your coolant regularly?

 

[v5e_nsx]

If you're in California ---- GO TO B.A.R. (BUREAU OF AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR)

CHECK YOUR STATE TO SEE IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING SIMILAR TO BAR??

HEHEHE:smile:http://www.bar.ca.gov/

 

[NSXGMS]

I'm wondering if the dealer bleed the car correctly. The car can overheat if it is not bleed correctly.

But as some else pointed out, 1200 miles is a lot of miles. The system should have worked itself out by then and gotten the air out.

Or maybe one of your hoses had a small leak and you didn't notice. Did you check your coolant regularly?

Yes, that's been known to happen. If you don't know what you're doing when you flush the coolant system an air "bubble" can form and restrict coolant flow.

The OP could have been driving for quite a while with insufficient coolant. Not sure why the temp guage didn't reflect something odd but perhaps the thermostat could also be a problem and created the perfect storm.

Whatever the cause, the OP now has typical blown head issues and I agree there should have been no machining of heads before the OP was informed the heads were warped to the point of needing machining. It appears he gave no permission for the shop to do this and that's a big no-no.

Get the car out of there ASAP and pay for as little as possible. Just because it's an Acura dealership doesn't mean they know how to work on NSXs. Steve Gooding is more than capable.

As far as the heads, no, they're definitely not cheap from Acura. In fact, I'd call that price prohibitive. I know someone looking for one used and they're not that common. Better off finding a good used engine or if you're still willing spend $15K+ do a core swap w/ SOS for a stroker motor.

Good luck, OP.

 

[lightguy]

There are specialised companies which straighten warped heads.
The machinist at your dealer should have measured the heads prior to machining to see if they could be cut to within tolerances before turning the mill on. If not they should have been straightened them machined.
If you want to be a dick;
Tell them to sit down; since they proceeded without your knowledge or authorisation its their problem.

Do they make thick head gaskets to compensate for the material removal ?
Or if the heads are just out of compression tolerance but serviceable otherwise use the opportunity to put in forged low compression pistons.

 

[gsrboy]

Depending on how bad it is you can probably get it fixed but will need a thicker head gasket. Which can be made fairly cheap. Cometic can make it to your spec.

 

[tbromley]

GSRboy,

You sound like you are getting ripped. Good advice here - the guy that said to tell the dealer to sit down had it RIGHT! IF they proceded without your knowledge! IF

Second and really the first and best piece of advice was from 92NCNSX - Steve Gooding is the man in that area. 92 isn't steering you wrong and you will need another mechanic to take this on - once you have resolved the dealer issue. Steve can help you think about that. The fact that he may know someone with heads for sale is a HUGE break for you. Call STEVE as soon as you can.

The dealer has made some kind of error here. Be careful and get good advice from Steve ASAP!

Sorry to hear - but I would never have done anything without contacting the group on this type of serious issue first. Something happened at that dealer before you went on the trip after they "serviced" the car! They are covering up!!! Be very careful here - proceed with real programed response or this will not turn out well for you. You need someone to check this out - even if it means trying to get Steve to that dealership to see what's happening - pay the money to have an expert check this out for you.

Also great advice from NSXGMS - he understands this issue too. Get the car outa there!

 

[gsrboy]

lol just my opinion. Thats if theyre not going to pay for your heads or replace it. If I was stuck with it but had to machine it a bit. I would get thicker head gasket if I wasnt going to boost the car. It would last a good while and it is fairly cheaper than 2,000 per head. I even had a thicker headgasket on my ls-vtec turbo build pushing 460 on pump gas. Thats .087" compare to factory .030" it was a 5 layer thick head gasket and it worked fine. Just saying its a cheap alternative for him if he is stuck with it. However this is a NSX not a cheap honda, so you might want to get it fixed the right way... lol

 

[swbatte]

even if you had a head-gasket failure, only serious prolonged overheat will warp the heads. sound like whoever was doing the 'machining' f'ked up and they are passing it onto you.

Agree - and if you didn't give consent to their machining in the first place they are on the hook.

 

[TyraNSX]

Umm, post #2 is by me telling him to contact Steve Gooding & 99NCNSX seconded it.

GSRboy,

You sound like you are getting ripped. Good advice here - the guy that said to tell the dealer to sit down had it RIGHT! IF they proceded without your knowledge! IF

Second and really the first and best piece of advice was from 92NCNSX - Steve Gooding is the man in that area. 92 isn't steering you wrong and you will need another mechanic to take this on - once you have resolved the dealer issue. Steve can help you think about that. The fact that he may know someone with heads for sale is a HUGE break for you. Call STEVE as soon as you can.

The dealer has made some kind of error here. Be careful and get good advice from Steve ASAP!

Sorry to hear - but I would never have done anything without contacting the group on this type of serious issue first. Something happened at that dealer before you went on the trip after they "serviced" the car! They are covering up!!! Be very careful here - proceed with real programed response or this will not turn out well for you. You need someone to check this out - even if it means trying to get Steve to that dealership to see what's happening - pay the money to have an expert check this out for you.

Also great advice from NSXGMS - he understands this issue too. Get the car outa there!

 

[tbromley]

Sorry Tyra, right you are, so I thirded it...if that's a word or an action. I've talked with 92 on many an occassion and he's a "friend". I should have given you kudos as well. However it was about what I would do with that info that was actually the message I was trying to impart.

I'll do better next time.

 

[nis350]

I am curious as to how the cylinder heads were damaged? I would think that even with some air in the cooling system, the car would just run a bit hotter and it would take a prolong period of overheating to warp the heads to the point where they are not serviceable.

I believe the OP stated that the car didn't even overheat.....

Can the cylinder heads be damaged so easily?

 

[drew]

Can the cylinder heads be damaged so easily?

YES! Especially if the system is under-filled and has air pockets (bubbles). The coolant will still flow and the coolant around the sender will show OK, but the area with the air pockets will overheat and warp.

Air has some very poor heat transfer properties.

And yeah, 1200 miles is about right for this type of issue to arise. From the OP's testimony it appears the dealer botched the service.

Though, the only way you could prove it is to see how much coolant they billed you for, should be ~3.8 US gallons.

Drew

 

[nis350]

YES! Especially if the system is under-filled and has air pockets (bubbles). The coolant will still flow and the coolant around the sender will show OK, but the area with the air pockets will overheat and warp.

Air has some very poor heat transfer properties.

And yeah, 1200 miles is about right for this type of issue to arise. From the OP's testimony it appears the dealer botched the service.

Though, the only way you could prove it is to see how much coolant they billed you for, should be ~3.8 US gallons.

Drew

Wow... That's scary..

Is there any indication about air in the system? There must be some way to check it, I hope....