Alternator Number 4 - Why?

[bonhamsurf]

Ever since I did the engine swap and added a turbo kit, my car runs through alternators like water. Granted I have a lot of extra electronics, but some of them were already in the car before I did engine swap and Turbo kit.

Items Already in Car before engine/swap turbo
- Double DIN DVD Player
- Small amplifier
- Zetoolman Subwoofer Box with JL Audio Sub Installed

Items added after engine swap/turbo
- 3 AEM Gauges (Boost, A/F, Fuel Pressure)
- iLift 6 sensor fully auto kit
- AEM Infinity
- LED Angel Eyes inside headlights

I've checked and read as many threads as I could find and tried, but can't seem to find a solution to my alternator issue. I'm 90% sure something keeps killing my Voltage regulator.

Any suggestions?
Thanks!

 

[RYU]

Have you ever installed a voltage meter and monitored the voltage drop under different driving conditions? I think we'd all just be guessing this point.

The stock alternator is a 100+amp alternator (120amp?) so it's pretty strong for most devices.

If we're guessing...
* High heat (how hot does the alternator get?)
* high power fuel pump or high amp radiator fan not wired properly
* missing or loose grounds

Alternators typically burn out because they are over stressed for long durations of time. Voltage regulator bad? Though this would have likely been changed with the alternator each time since I think it's built in. If any of your electronic devices are improperly wired and is causing a lot of resistance that would be a lot of load on your alternator and could cause premature wear.

More guessing... anyone?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, aftermarket pulley kit causing the alternator to spin too fast or too slow? LOL this is fun...

 

[bonhamsurf]

Stock pulley system except bottom one is the ATI Harmonic Balancer, but the problem was happening before the I installed the ATI Harmonic Balancer. I bought it as a possible solution to the problem.

 

[RYU]

Do yourself a favor and find a way to monitor your voltage while #4 is still working. Don't want to see you spend money for parts that don't need to be replaced (like the ATI damper). The ATI damper doesn't change the alternator speed.

 

[bonhamsurf]

Do yourself a favor and find a way to monitor your voltage while #4 is still working. Don't want to see you spend money for parts that don't need to be replaced (like the ATI damper). The ATI damper doesn't change the alternator speed.

I have Ininfity ECU and have been data logging all day, when it's running great and when it's having problems. When I install this spare Denso alternator, I'm going to keep data logging. I have to drop my engine in the next few months to replace the oil seals that are leaking, so hope to double check all grounds, etc. However, that's months out, so I'd like to fix the alternator issue before then.

 

[solidol]

Are you saying you can't dump voltage reading in your log? How old is your battery? Are you sure you're not running 'on alternator'?

 

[bonhamsurf]

Are you saying you can't dump voltage reading in your log? How old is your battery? Are you sure you're not running 'on alternator'?

Definitely not battery. It's pretty new and had it checked. I've put in 3 Optimum's trying to figure it out. Now I'm running a Kirkland battery. Works fine. For the log, I actually am waiting on my tuner to review the data. I'm not familiar enough with Infinity to understand everything yet. However, this was happening when I was running AEM EMS V1 (2nd revision). Something keeps killing alternators.

 

[solidol]

Definitely not battery. It's pretty new and had it checked. I've put in 3 Optimum's trying to figure it out. Now I'm running a Kirkland battery. Works fine. For the log, I actually am waiting on my tuner to review the data. I'm not familiar enough with Infinity to understand everything yet. However, this was happening when I was running AEM EMS V1 (2nd revision). Something keeps killing alternators.

Well nothing happens for no reason. If your alternator doesn't die because of mechanical failure then it's definitely over stressed. Voltage is one thing but you need to figure out your ave/max amp draw.

 

[bonhamsurf]

Well nothing happens for no reason. If your alternator doesn't die because of mechanical failure then it's definitely over stressed. Voltage is one thing but you need to figure out your ave/max amp draw.

I agree, need to find if it's a ground or it's simply having to overwork. I've heard some people mention a higher performance alternator. Has anyone had any experience or know who makes them?

 

[solidol]

I agree, need to find if it's a ground or it's simply having to overwork. I've heard some people mention a higher performance alternator. Has anyone had any experience or know who makes them?

I think someone in SoCal had local shop rewire oem alternator for higher output. Search on here and I'm sure you'll find the thread. It actually might have been Regan

 

[solidol]

And btw did you open and inspect what failed on all of those alternators? Was it voltage regulator? How did brushes look like? Looking at it may give you clues on what caused it to fail.

 

[bonhamsurf]

And btw did you open and inspect what failed on all of those alternators? Was it voltage regulator? How did brushes look like? Looking at it may give you clues on what caused it to fail.

I didn't, we have a company here on the island that rebuilds them. The last one that failed, I am 80% sure he said Voltage Regulator was bad. When I take this one back to them for testing, I will be sure to ask them what failed, and if they have in their records why the last one went bad.

 

[Old Guy]

Heat! The single biggest factor leading to the early demise of electrical and electronic equipment. High voltage can be a problem; however, if you had abnormally high voltages you would be toasting other stuff than just your alternator. Have a look at your exhaust plumbing leading to the turbo. Is any of it routed such that the alternator is directly exposed to the radiant energy from the exhaust manifold?

 

[bonhamsurf]

Heat! The single biggest factor leading to the early demise of electrical and electronic equipment. High voltage can be a problem; however, if you had abnormally high voltages you would be toasting other stuff than just your alternator. Have a look at your exhaust plumbing leading to the turbo. Is any of it routed such that the alternator is directly exposed to the radiant energy from the exhaust manifold?

Good question, I don't think so, but will look. I forgot to mention I'm running 3 Walboro 400lph fuel pumps in a Radium Engineering setup, 1 pump for surge tank, and other 2 pumps run my ID2000's injectors (1 for each fuel rail).

Has anyone ever had their alternator rebuilt to 200amps? I'm thinking about asking the rebuilders here to do this for me.

 

[solidol]

Good question, I don't think so, but will look. I forgot to mention I'm running 3 Walboro 400lph fuel pumps in a Radium Engineering setup, 1 pump for surge tank, and other 2 pumps run my ID2000's injectors (1 for each fuel rail).

Has anyone ever had their alternator rebuilt to 200amps? I'm thinking about asking the rebuilders here to do this for me.

Three walbros - small details to mention. Side question: what peak fuel pressure do you hit with this?

 

[bonhamsurf]

Three walbros - small details to mention. Side question: what peak fuel pressure do you hit with this?

42-43psi max fuel pressure. Normally stays 40-42psi when not pushing it

 

[solidol]

42-43psi max fuel pressure. Normally stays 40-42psi when not pushing it

Why do you need two pumps then? What am I missing? Sorry to derail the thread - my last off topic question. Thanks.

 

[RYU]

Why do you need two pumps then? What am I missing? Sorry to derail the thread - my last off topic question. Thanks.

Here we go... It's starting to unravel before our eyes. Holy cow... 3 fuel pumps... I wonder how much amperage that draws combined.

Maybe 2 alternators are needed? A 200amp alternator will probably present other problems. That's a lot of torque for the motor to turn. It might not even Idle properly.

 

[goldNSX]

One 400lhp needs 12 amp minimum and can draw up to 20 amps. So you're looking at quite a lot of additional current draw which seems to kill your alternator.

 

[solidol]

Here we go... It's starting to unravel before our eyes. Holy cow... 3 fuel pumps... I wonder how much amperage that draws combined.

Well the reason I asked is mostly because if I remember right Walbros rated at 40psi and ~13v; Surge tank pump aside single 400lph pump (with stated fuel pressure) will be able to support around 1000hp power output. Was it done to support some sort of failover? I think it was mentioned each pump supports single rail/bank;

What's your power level [MENTION=18804]bonhamsurf[/MENTION] ?

 

[bonhamsurf]

Why do you need two pumps then? What am I missing? Sorry to derail the thread - my last off topic question. Thanks.

I use 3 pumps, 1 for the surge tank, as I when I race, I don't want to fill the tank with super expensive E100 (yes it's expensive in Hawaii). Or even C16 (which is almost $30/gallon in Hawaii). Then I have the other 2 pumps running the fuel rails, one for each rail. I have the block and manifold from Cody Loveland's Pike's Peak 2012 Pike's Peak motor in it, so a very different manifold, and fuel rail system.

Here's a link to an article on Superstreet with some photos of the engine bay. This is from the August 2014 SuperStreet issue.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1408-1991-acura-nsx-lovefab-pikes-peak/

Since then I've upgraded the entire Turbo system to the GTX4088R, the ID2000's, triple fuel pumps, AEM Infinity and 2 Wastegates.

Well the reason I asked is mostly because if I remember right Walbros rated at 40psi and ~13v; Surge tank pump aside single 400lph pump (with stated fuel pressure) will be able to support around 1000hp power output. Was it done to support some sort of failover? I think it was mentioned each pump supports single rail/bank;

What's your power level [MENTION=18804]bonhamsurf[/MENTION] ?

With the upgrades mentioned above after the Superstreet issue, I am now currently at 673whp and 494wtq on 92 octane Pump Gas

 

[solidol]

I use 3 pumps, 1 for the surge tank, as I when I race, I don't want to fill the tank with super expensive E100 (yes it's expensive in Hawaii). Or even C16 (which is almost $30/gallon in Hawaii). Then I have the other 2 pumps running the fuel rails, one for each rail. I have the block and manifold from Cody Loveland's Pike's Peak 2012 Pike's Peak motor in it, so a very different manifold, and fuel rail system.

Here's a link to an article on Superstreet with some photos of the engine bay. This is from the August 2014 SuperStreet issue.
http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/1408-1991-acura-nsx-lovefab-pikes-peak/

Since then I've upgraded the entire Turbo system to the GTX4088R, the ID2000's, triple fuel pumps, AEM Infinity and 2 Wastegates.


With the upgrades mentioned above after the Superstreet issue, I am now currently at 673whp and 494wtq on 92 octane Pump Gas

Aha! Pretty nice. But still two Walbros 255 would do just fine and be way under stressed (fuel rails); I was hoping to see c30a block blown to produce over 1000hp #highhopes heh

 

[bonhamsurf]

Aha! Pretty nice. But still two Walbros 255 would do just fine and be way under stressed (fuel rails); I was hoping to see c30a block blown to produce over 1000hp #highhopes heh

LOL, actually Cody made 1056whp on my block with a bigger turbo, but since I'm not widebody and it's my daily driver, I am running a smaller turbo. Not worth the power if I can't get any traction since I don't have a widebody. I do have drag slicks, but only run those when drag racing.

- - - Updated - - -

My recent dyno. I actually have a flex fuel system installed, but didn't have time to set it all up before Tuner got to Hawaii. (Sucks living here, only good Tuner moved to mainland, so gotta wait on him to return). I have a barrel of E100, according to Cody and some other cars, I should make around 800whp on E100 (can't get E85 here).

 

[RYU]

If you've eliminated the obvious (inadequate or loose grounds, etc..) then your electronics are simply drawing way too much power.

That's about all my small brain will allow me to internet diagnose this. Best of luck with the fixes bonhamsurf. You're in uncharted territory when you try to make a 1000hp engine built for 270hp, a daily driver.

You can try to contact Danny in Las Vegas. He's got the only 1000hp (but his was WHP) I know of. He pretty much had to redo EVERYTHING on his setup.

 

[Old Guy]

Good question, I don't think so, but will look. I forgot to mention I'm running 3 Walboro 400lph fuel pumps in a Radium Engineering setup, 1 pump for surge tank, and other 2 pumps run my ID2000's injectors (1 for each fuel rail).

Has anyone ever had their alternator rebuilt to 200amps? I'm thinking about asking the rebuilders here to do this for me.

I am going to stick with my original observation that heat is the cause of the problem; however, its may be a combination of external heat from higher underhood temperatures plus internal heating of the alternator. If you look at modern alternators, they are much smaller than the alternators from 30 years ago. As an electrical engineer, I can tell you that there is no magic involved. They increase the wiring gauge to handle larger currents, increased the speed to make up for the fact that they have space for fewer wiring turns because they had to make room for larger diameter wire and reduced the amount of iron in the frame to make room for more wire.

A modern, compact 120 amp alternator will put out 120 amps; but, unlike an older 35 amp alternator, don't ask it to put out 120 amps on a continuous basis. The internal heating from continuously high current loading is probably cooking your alternator. Without going out to the garage to look at mine, I can't remember whether it has an internal or external fan. Since you are likely loading the nuts out of your alternator, you need to make sure that it is getting a good supply of cooling air. However, I expect the reality is that you will need to explore a much larger alternator if you are going to retain all the stuff that you have added to the car. I recommend against trying to upgrade the existing alternator as jamming larger diameter wire into the frame and turning it at a higher speed is just going to create heating problems. Go for an alternator with a higher current rating that is physically larger. I recognize that this may cause fitment issues.

There is nowhere near 100 or 120 amps of continuous current load in a stock NSX. Honda sized the OEM alternator to provide a reasonably long life with the typical electrical loads in the car. Significantly increasing the steady electrical load in the car is going to shorten the life of the alternator.