Alonso has seat fitting for Honda F1

[TC]

F1-live is reporting that Fernando Alonso spent an entire day at Honda's Brackley factory this week and even had a seat fitting. Brawn + Alonso might be just what Honda F1 needs to become competitive in the next 1-2 years.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071129170331.shtml

 

[ak]

wow.

 

[drivingnirvana]

As a Honda F1 Racing Team supporter I'm glad to read so...

 

[Ponyboy]

As a Honda F1 Racing Team supporter I'm not glad to read so.

Alfonso's concept of "team" has got more holes than a number 9 sponge. The plus side is he'll quit after the 2nd race if the RA108 isn't competitive.

 

[TC]

Alfonso's concept of "team" has got more holes than a number 9 sponge.

I think his concept of a team is right-on. In nearly every team sport, there is a pecking order of players. In football, the QB and back-up QB don't get equal treatment or playing time. Most teams have the concept of a starting lineup, and nearly all winning teams revolve around one lead player - Jordan, Schumacher, Montana, etc.

The ultimate job of a team is to win, and Alonso did that twice at Renault. Schumi did that at Ferrari 5 times in a row. McLaren's "fair and even" approach hasn't resulted in a championship in many, many years. And when they did last win a driver's championship, Hakkeninin was clearly favored internally over Coulhard.

 

[ak]

I think his concept of a team is right-on. In nearly every team sport, there is a pecking order of players. In football, the QB and back-up QB don't get equal treatment or playing time. Most teams have the concept of a starting lineup, and nearly all winning teams revolve around one lead player - Jordan, Schumacher, Montana, etc.

The ultimate job of a team is to win, and Alonso did that twice at Renault. Schumi did that at Ferrari 5 times in a row. McLaren's "fair and even" approach hasn't resulted in a championship in many, many years. And when they did last win a driver's championship, Hakkeninin was clearly favored internally over Coulhard.

I'm sure Button won't be happy with this move.(If it implies that he has to be second to Alonso) Heck, he's already pissed with Honda for the lack of performance this year.

 

[TC]

I'm sure Button won't be happy with this move.(If it implies that he has to be second to Alonso) Heck, he's already pissed with Honda for the lack of performance this year.

He may not be happy if Alonso comes onboard. Nor will Rubens, who will either lose a seat altoghether, or get shipped down to the Honda JV team at SA. But if Honda starts winning, isn't that what matters?

Also, Button and Rubens share blame for Honda's lack of performance. Race drivers need to be able to understand what the car is doing and communicate that to engineering. Guys like Schumacher and Mario Andretti did/do what very well. I think Alonso is also very good at that. Renault went from mid-pack to winning team with Alonso - with one of the smaller budgets. Is it 100% coincidence that McLaren went from a season without a single win to consistent winner (and podium finisher) when Alonso came onboard? And that Renault simultaneously dropped down the standings?

Button had his chance to make Honda his team - they are not only not winning, but getting worse. He bears some of the blame.

 

[NSXrunner]

Button had his chance to make Honda his team - they are not only not winning, but getting worse. He bears some of the blame.

+1 Dont forget a season or two ago Button wanted out of Honda if he whines enough he might finally get his wish.

 

[Ponyboy]

I think his concept of a team is right-on...

Wow. If "team" concept means blackmailing your employer to give you preferred status, then yes. Which you knew upon signing the contract that they expressly wouldn't do. If "team" concept means going behind your agent to secure a deal with another team, then sure that's a wonderful team concept. And if you'd like me to add more to the list just let me know.

I know what your getting at but the football analogy is a bad one. You don't have two quarterbacks trying to win at the same time in football - you do in F1.

The ultimate job of a team is to win, and Alonso did that twice at Renault. Schumi did that at Ferrari 5 times in a row. McLaren's "fair and even" approach hasn't resulted in a championship in many, many years. And when they did last win a driver's championship, Hakkeninin was clearly favored internally over Coulhard.

McLaren is one of the most successful teams in F1 (11 DCs and 8 CCs) and Kimi very nearly won the DC a few years ago. I'd say equal status has done fairly well for them.

FWIW, apparently has denied Alonso was in Brackley and state that they've already announced their 2008 driver lineup back in July.

 

[Ponyboy]

Also, Button and Rubens share blame for Honda's lack of performance.

That's ludicrious - the blame goes up and down the organization. The RA107 was the worst car in the field. A sh&t box with a good engine is still a sh&t box. Look at the trap speeds at any of the circuits and you'll see the RA107 at or near the bottom. The problem was aero - bad design with an incorrectly calibrated wind tunnel thrown in for good measure. Unless you want Jense and Rubeninho to become aero engineers, it's ludicrious to pin the blame solely on them.

Alonso is a definitely a talented driver but the single tire supplier is credited as the difference maker in the McLaren and Renault seasons. Macca engineers claimed a huge increase in downforce with just the switch to Bridgestone tires while others seemingly lost it.

 

[TC]

Wow. If "team" concept means blackmailing your employer to give you preferred status, then yes. Which you knew upon signing the contract that they expressly wouldn't do. If "team" concept means going behind your agent to secure a deal with another team, then sure that's a wonderful team concept. And if you'd like me to add more to the list just let me know.

Go for it, because what you've listed above doesn't have to do with his concept of an F1 team. Given that Alonso's agent is also the head of Renault F1 (Flavio), then there would have been a huge conflict of interest in having Flavio represent him in discussions with any other team. Alonso proceeded to win the championship during his "exit" year at Renault, so I don't know what more you can ask of him.

As for "blackmail" I'm not sure what you're referring to. Clearly, McLaren had all kinds of disfunctions, many of which did not have to do with Alonso. Alonso joined McLaren a year before Hamilton was named a driver, Montoya was already on the way out and everyone knew where Kimi was going. So I would bet that Alonso had an understanding with Ron Dennis that he was going to be the top dog.

I know what your getting at but the football analogy is a bad one. You don't have two quarterbacks trying to win at the same time in football - you do in F1.

The term "quarterback controversy" is very applicable to the the driver problems at McLaren this year - an issued caused by management/coaching not clearly stating who is the starter and who is the backup. The same is true in many other positions - not all backs get equal ball time, not all receivers get equal passes, etc. Some players are there to make it possible for the lead players to score/win.

McLaren is one of the most successful teams in F1 (11 DCs and 8 CCs) and Kimi very nearly won the DC a few years ago. I'd say equal status has done fairly well for them.

Sure, but McLaren hasn't always been even-Steven with its drivers. If memory serves, the first year Hakkenin won the driver's championship, Coulhart pulled over from the lead position on the last turn of the last lap of the first race of the season to let Mikka by.

 

[TC]

That's ludicrious - the blame goes up and down the organization. The RA107 was the worst car in the field. A sh&t box with a good engine is still a sh&t box. Look at the trap speeds at any of the circuits and you'll see the RA107 at or near the bottom. The problem was aero - bad design with an incorrectly calibrated wind tunnel thrown in for good measure. Unless you want Jense and Rubeninho to become aero engineers, it's ludicrious to pin the blame solely on them.

Isn't that what "share blame" means, that the drivers share blame along with the engineers? To clarify my original post, I meant that the Honda F1 drivers were not blameless for Honda's poor season.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Who you gonna believe?

F1-live is reporting that Fernando Alonso spent an entire day at Honda's Brackley factory this week and even had a seat fitting.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64169
I dunno, is anyone else thinking the BS is getting much deeper than usual? I'm still laughing at the double speak and spin coming out of Red Bull and now this..............

 

[NSXrunner]

I heard he had a seat fitting for a NASCAR team. :tongue: :biggrin:

 

[Ponyboy]

Go for it, because what you've listed above doesn't have to do with his concept of an F1 team.

Has everything to do with his concept of "team." There is no "team" at all. His idea of do anything and everything, moral and immoral to get your way is not the definition of a team player.

Research the beginnings of Stepneygate and you'll find what I'm referencing re: blackmail.

So I would bet that Alonso had an understanding with Ron Dennis that he was going to be the top dog.

Not sure that's a good assumption, given that Ron Dennis has always stated his drivers had equal status and equal cars.

The term "quarterback controversy" is very applicable to the the driver problems at McLaren this year - an issued caused by management/coaching not clearly stating who is the starter and who is the backup. The same is true in many other positions - not all backs get equal ball time, not all receivers get equal passes, etc. Some players are there to make it possible for the lead players to score/win.

Ehh, it's just a bad analogy. You've got two drivers wanting to win. The drivers have equal cars and equal opportunity to win. That's always been RD's philosophy. If you don't like it, don't sign with McLaren. And certainly don't threaten to release potentially damaging information to the FIA unless you get your way.

Sure, but McLaren hasn't always been even-Steven with its drivers. If memory serves, the first year Hakkenin won the driver's championship, Coulhart pulled over from the lead position on the last turn of the last lap of the first race of the season to let Mikka by.

There are no team orders in F1! Mika and DC had agreements between themselves in certain races. IIRC, Jerez and the Austrialian GP are examples of this.

 

[enigma]

Initially I was angry, but after reading that Honda is denying the rumors makes me feel a little bit better...

I swear, if Alonso joins Honda, winning or not, I will no longer be a Honda fan. I cannot stand him.

 

[BD]

Has everything to do with his concept of "team." There is no "team" at all. His idea of do anything and everything, moral and immoral to get your way is not the definition of a team player.

Not saying Alonso is a Saint, BUT pertty much every championship winning drivers enjoyed the number one status. What Alonso was not aware of was the fact that Hamilton is just as good. How would you treat the situation if you were Ron Dennis? It is an unfortunate event Ron Dennis probably thought Alonso will be a good driver for Hamilton to learn from.... Little did he know...

Rewind 19 years, similar issues happen with the same team but under Honda power, Senna and Prost did not fair well on the same team, so what did Honda/McLaren do? Choose the younger of the two and brought in a good point scorer (Berger), with that combo, they secured two additional drivers and contractor's titles.

Honda's problems in recent years is that no championship caliber drivers will sign with them. It will change if Alonso is willing.

Therefore,

If Honda sign Alonso, it may be a blessing in disguise. As of personal opinion, it will be the best thing ever happen to the current generation Honda F1 team. Regardless what public's feeling towards him, along with Ross Brown, they bring vas knowledge from three championship caliber teams (Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren).

This is about winning. 300 million USD spend with only 6 points to show is not some thing I like to see as a Honda fan. If they do get Alonso and still fail with Ross Brown in charge, then I would loose my faith in this brand.

 

[Juice]

Throw me in with the Alonso "hater" crowd. I'm not a big fan of RB, but damn - I really hate Alonso! What a backstabbing little bitch. He is definitely a great driver, but he sure seems to suck at being a team player. Doesn't his picture appear next to EGOCENTRICC in Wikipedia??

As for who is to blame, almost every person within Honda's F1 ranks admits that they developed a piss poor car that was so far off the pace that they gave up and moved on to the next chassis prior to half-season. And then there was the shotgun approach to management that the team took that sent disgruntled shockwaves throughout the engineering staff weekly. The only blame that the drivers have is losing interest in the team after they were told that the car would never be competitive and to wait until next year! A year in F1?? A whole damn season sucking ass?? What the hell is the chance of promise of return the following year? You see how well the "wait until next year" approach worked out for Scott Speed.

If next year Alonso is sitting on pole and Button is sitting 6 spot on the grid, and they are both in a Honda, I'll eat my words. But it will never happen - not a chance!

 

[Ponyboy]

If next year Alonso is sitting on pole and Button is sitting 6 spot on the grid, and they are both in a Honda, I'll eat my words. But it will never happen - not a chance!

On the positive side: if Alfronso does join Honda F1, it'll be a tad enjoyable watching him get lapped by Hamilton over and over.

 

[TC]

If next year Alonso is sitting on pole and Button is sitting 6 spot on the grid, and they are both in a Honda, I'll eat my words. But it will never happen - not a chance!

Even if they get Alonso, chances are that he and Ross Brawn will not be able to leap Honda from the back of the grid to the front for the 2008 season. The design of the 2008 Honda F1 challenger has long been set and there isn't time left before the start of the 2008 season for any kind of major rework. Mid-pack is about the most we can reasonably expect for 08.

 

[BD]

Even if they get Alonso, chances are that he and Ross Brawn will not be able to leap Honda from the back of the grid to the front for the 2008 season. The design of the 2008 Honda F1 challenger has long been set and there isn't time left before the start of the 2008 season for any kind of major rework. Mid-pack is about the most we can reasonably expect for 08.

Even though this Alonso rumor is still a rumor, I welcome the idea since all other top notch drivers are signed with other teams.

Don't forget, it took Ferrari 4 (1996 to 1999) years before they won the championship with Ross Brown in charge, and Honda does have much greater resources than the old Ferrari from the 1990's.

I must admit, F1 has been very boring sport in the recent years - until last season. The drama was rather entertaining.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: I'd like to wish it, but Fred ain't got it.

Even though this Alonso rumor is still a rumor, I welcome the idea

I would too if I thought Fred was big enough to make Honda a long term project as I believe Ross has. But, these past few months have suggested that he's more into short term gain (money and passing notoriety) or worse yet, trying to salvage his career path, than leaving a memorable F-1 legacy. :frown: Signing Fred for a year may contribute to Honda's development but only in a small way...........since it would be at the expense of team morale becasue Ross "backed" his current drivers. I hope Ross doesn't allow this to happen. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BD]

Re: I'd like to wish it, but Fred ain't got it.

But, these past few months have suggested that he's more into short term gain (money and passing notoriety) or worse yet, trying to salvage his career path, than leaving a memorable F-1 legacy.

For at 25 years old guy with already two world championship under his belly, I don't believe there will be any thing to salvage. The reason? Look at MS, he cheated over and over for his 7 titles, and no one talk about it any more. I bet you in 10 years, all people will talk about is who won what, and FA will still be in F1 driving for a top team. He will not be a Jacq Villneuve.

Regardless what he did at McLaren (which no one really know 100%), he is a worthy champ who beat MS fair and square for two titles. He's already in the history book.

He is the type of driver Honda used to employ, and they can definitely use his service.

 

[TC]

Re: I'd like to wish it, but Fred ain't got it.

I would too if I thought Fred was big enough to make Honda a long term project as I believe Ross has. But, these past few months have suggested that he's more into short term gain (money and passing notoriety) or worse yet, trying to salvage his career path, than leaving a memorable F-1 legacy. :frown: Signing Fred for a year may contribute to Honda's development but only in a small way...........since it would be at the expense of team morale becasue Ross "backed" his current drivers. I hope Ross doesn't allow this to happen. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with Vance - no one outside of McLaren really knows what went on internally. To say Fred is not a team player because all of the crap around his tumultous year there isn't fair. He worked out fine at Renault, clearly evidenced by the fact that the team wants him back. Lewis clearly loves McLaren, however, Juan Paublo and even Kimi said they could understand Fred's frustration with Ron Dennis. Just like in any company, sometimes a person and the company don't mesh. That doesn't mean that that person isn't a good employee elsewhere, or that company isn't a good employer. Fred and McLaren just didn't work out.

In terms of morale, there is no better team morale booster than winning, especially for Honda. With all of the money, personnel, technology, corporate resource and corporate pride invested, and they could only beat Spyker and SA - morale has to be at rock bottom. I don't see how Fred could make the situation any worse. And I do think he can help tremendously.

 

[ak]

It seems like Alonso wants to join Ferrari in 09 really badly and thus only wants 1 year deal for 08. I doubt too many teams are into that idea. I really don't get why he doesn't just go back to Renault??