ALB & TCS lights on

[duke]

Need some adive on this.Please.
It happened for the third time. I am driving normally, suddenly I feel a kind of shock (like when you're out of fuel)and thirty seconds later my ALB & TCS light go on. I stop the car & the engine, start again but the lights stay on. The first two times it happened I went immediatly to my dealer & he examined the car but couldn't find anything wrong.So he replaced the 20A fuse & the problem was solved. He gave me some spare fuses. So today it happened again, but when the warning lights were on I lost power, like the car didn't want to move. After twenty seconds it drove back like it has to, but still the lights were on. So I replaced the fuse & it was ok.
Can anyone tell me what is happening ?
In our rainy country it is not safe to drive without ALB and TCS.
thanks

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[nsxman]

What model year is your NSX, and can you report the number of the fuse that you have been replacing?

[This message has been edited by nsxman (edited 02 December 2001).]

 

[duke]

nsxman, my car is a '91 with 32 K miles, imported from Canada with 7K on it.
I replaced fuse ALB 2.3 ( 20 A).
Thanks for your reply.


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[nsxman]

Duke:

I have memories of a similar occurrence in an early production 91. Unfortunately, my memory is stale because it happened over ten years ago, and the problem was quite difficult to diagnose. If you can supply some more information, I may have some records that might assist your dealer.

1. During the first and second instances when the warning lights came on and you took the vehicle to the dealer, did the dealer "jump" the service connector in the passenger side foot well? Did he record the error codes from the computer? Do you know what codes were found?

2. During failure number three, I interpret your comment that you lost power while you were in motion. Is this correct?

3. Does "losing power" mean the engine quit (died) or was it still running, albeit poorly.

4. Was fuse ALB 2,3 "blown" (open circuit), or were you merely pulling it out and replacing it with a fresh one.

5. What is the vehicle id number (VIN?

Let me know and I'll see if I can give you some hints.

For your information, fuse ALB 2,3 supplies power to the traction control memory and to the ALB system. Taking it out and reinserting it may be equivalent to "rebooting" a computer that has become locked because of an operating system fault or other system failure.

The TCS and ALB are inter-related which makes diagnosis a pain. For example, the systems share the speed sensors at each wheel for input data.






[This message has been edited by nsxman (edited 02 December 2001).]

 

[duke]

nsxman, thanks for the information.
1/the dealer did not check the computer. He just replaced the fuse. Ther was no error code of course. Led adviced me to check the computer first before replacing it. That's what I will do.
2/I lost power while running ( like as if you are 'forcing' the TCS to work) but the engine didn't 'die', it just runned poorly for about 30 seconds. Then the power was back.
3/ the vin nr is ....MT800138.
Thanks

 

[nsxman]

Duke:

I thought that maybe your problem was related to an 91 NSX I owned. However, now I am not so sure. Nevertheless, your VIN is low, so maybe there is a similarity.

The ALB and TCS warning lights came on twice, simultaneously, with the attendant "jolt" you reported. On the third instance, the engine and dash lights went completed dead. Then, mysteriously, after about a half-hour, the car started and the dash lights worked, however, both the TCS and ALB lights were illuminated.

It took four trips to the dealer (September/90 through May/91) to diagnose and find the problem.

Nevertheless, here is what I was told, at that time, during those service visits.

1. Early and later production 91 NSX's had different grounding systems. As you know, there is a preponderance of aluminum used in the NSX. Typically using the chassis as a master ground system (as in a steel body car) is problematical in the NSX because aluminum does not conduct electricity as well as steel, and a surface oxide forms on aluminum which does not conduct electricity. It was originally conjectured that this was the problem with my vehicle -- a bad ground, somewhere.

2. Many telephone calls were made to the Acura "Tech Line" in California. The first recommendation that they made was to update the engine ground. (Acura Op Code 737099-066-D99.

3. This did not fix the problem, and in fact after this repair, the engine and dash went completely dead as noted above.

Back to the dealer it went. An original ground strap that was supposed to be removed during No. 2 above, was removed. The service order also said an "open" circuit was fixed (the open circuit was unidentified).

Regretfully, the Acura service repair codes were not listed on the service order for the removal of the ground strap and the repair of the open circuit.

Anecdotally, I later spoke with the NSX Technician in California and he reported to me that the NSX test vehicle at his disposal had the same missing ground strap as my vehicle. He was quite surprised.

I later sold the vehicle, so I have no idea whether the problem was conclusively repaired.

Checking those computer codes is a good first step, although in my case, there was no uniformity in what the computer reported.

Good luck.




[This message has been edited by nsxman (edited 06 December 2001).]

 

[DanO]

Originally posted by nsxman:
Typically using the chassis as a master ground system (as in a steel body car) is problematical in the NSX because aluminum does not conduct electricity as well as steel

Hold on here. One would have a hard time finding a non-precious metal that conducts electricity better than aluminum as I believe that aluminum has about twice the conductivity of copper by weight and is common in electrical transmission lines.

...and a surface oxide forms on aluminum which does not conduct electricity.

And rust doesn’t form on steel?

Maybe if there were a steel ground strap bolted to the NSXes aluminum body frame then some form of electrolysis may occur and an “oxide” barrier may form between the two metals. Though I'd be surprised if Honda designed the NSX to have a steel grounding strap anywhere in the car. Do you know where this strap is (was) located?

DanO

[This message has been edited by DanO (edited 06 December 2001).]

 

[nsxman]

It is acknowledged that aluminum is a better conductor of electricity versus steel. As for your comments about metal conductivity in general, here are some numbers:

The resistivity of aluminum is 2.62 x 10 (-6 power) ohm-cm. For copper it is 1.72 x 10 (-6 power) ohm-cm. Thus, copper is a better conductor of electricity.

Using the chassis of the NSX as a master ground is problematical because the oxide of aluminum has a high dielectric constant. Although you could have quoted the entire sentence in my response to Duke, I acknowledge that the sentence was poorly written.

The fact of the matter is -- as the NSX manual so clearly describes -- that unless special precautions and fasteners are used, a high resistance joint can exist where a conducting joint is required. This is typically not a major problem in a steel chassis.



[This message has been edited by nsxman (edited 06 December 2001).]

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

You may just want to polish your battery posts. Similar thing happened to me on another car when the posts were covered by too much oxidation. Although, I would expect all the warning lamps to come on if the car was being 'repowered'. Definitely sounds electrical though.

-- Chris

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www.ScienceofSpeed.com - Click for more info

 

[Vytas]

Originally posted by nsxman:

Anecdotally, I later spoke with the NSX Technician in California and he reported to me that the NSX test vehicle at his disposal had the same missing ground strap as my vehicle. He was quite surprised.

Some early '91 NSXs did not have a ground strap from the engine to the firewall. My 91 NSX is #991 and it has no ground strap. I've seen other '91 NSXs with higher VIN numbers that already have a ground strap. I take it Honda determined there was a need for it. No TSB was issued for the older cars to have the ground strap added. I have no problems with the car (39K miles) and have no intention of adding one if it originally didn't come with the car.

Vytas



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"The value of life can be measured by how many times your soul has been deeply stirred." - Soichiro Honda

 

[duke]

nsxman, I think you have a point there.
I suppose you could be right, because it happened every time in rainy wether.
At least I know where to begin.

 

[nsxman]

Duke:

Chris makes a good point about the battery. Certainly, it is easy to check.

Let us know how things turn out.

 

[duke]

ok, I just got it back from the technician.
We spend about 3 hours looking for what could cause this problem. Finally he found
a wire that was damaged under the steering
console.When I bought the car, I had a
anti-carjacking system with GPS installed.
The installer used this bunch of wires to connect with the electric part of this system.He probably fixed these wires to tight, so after a long while it got damaged.
Now this is fixed. I hope that was the only
cause.

 

[nsxman]

Congrats Duke...

Your experience confirms an aged rule: Check the other guy's work first.