Advice: Going Faster Scary?

Regarding the fear making you drive more cautiously on the track, I would say this is only something you can figure out in your own mind. I know that for me personally the fear aspect only really enters in when I am at the edge of my comfort zone in doing something I have not done before. For instance, this last year when I entered the One Lap of America in my Evo 8 and we were at Road America (someplace I had never been before), driving in a rain storm (I could hardly see), in the fog (ummm..where is the turn?), and going down the straight away at about 140 mph. It made me nervous the first two laps, but then I just made the mental decision to concentrate on DRIVING and NOT the fear of crashing. If you concentrate on the driving you will most likely be able to keep the 'incidents' to a minimum. It is all in your head. Just drive where you feel comfortable, and if you do not feel comfortable on the track then it is okay to not do it anymore. The last thing you want is to go out for a driving school and be freaking out and end up causing an accident. Just be confident and decide what is best for you. Good luck my friend. :)
 
Andrie Hartanto said:
I'm contemplating on EVO8. Recently married, I need 4 doors, and 4WD for those trips to tahoe will be nice.
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Good choice...if you have questions about that, PM me. I have owned one of those before.
 
...the other thing is that fear lets you know you are still alive....without at least a little of it you never know what overcoming fear feels like. :)
 
robfenn said:
Hi Guys,

Is the Miata the small Mazda roadstar? Its called something different in the UK..

They are great cars for learning how to drive properly, and things crucially happen at slower speeds. Over here you can pick second hand examples up for a few grand.

The NSX is a bit like jumping in the deep end, as your instructor says, once you have mastered the NSX, any road car will be easy. Take this as motivation, it may not be easy to drive fast but you are gaining valuble experience over the wimps who drive race prepped FWD cars.

With regards to your instructor, if he has realised you have become like this it would be good if he could demand more of you. Does he take you on hotlaps? If he can show you just what the NSX can do, maybe this will give you more confidence as well.

Good luck,

-Rob
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Yes, the Miata is the small Mazda roadster. It's an excellent tool that can teach you how to carry speed through a corner. Ask me how I know. :)

I only have two HPDE under my belt and know about this fear thing as I almost rolled the car last time out.
 
John McCain Racing said:
I agree! Make it a fun day and keeping the losses to a minimum is the way to go:-) I have done several HPDE and lap days and have gotten away with only killing one RM Racing Front Lip. I plan to get a "race car" next season so I can compete in SCCA Solo 1 and other race events and keep my girl without a dent or scratch!
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That poor lip was destroyed too! I was cracked in about 12 places...not to mention being held on with JB Weld anywayz! LOL....It was an interesting spin out...*I was in the car at the time*....good thing the owner of the track missed that one right? :wink:
 
fannsx said:
Can driving a go-kart give you similar experience and learning opprtunities?
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are you asking about the real go kart at the road course, (Rotex, shifter kart...etc)?? Or you are just talking about the indoor go kart that spawning everywhere lately??

I was a frequent indoor go kart tracker back when I wasn't ready for the track (financially & I didn't have a track worthy car at the time.). My answer to your question would be a "yes" and "no". For someone had no clue in driving a mid engine car and sensing the lateral movement... Those Indoor go kart is a really good practising device for both driving skills and physical training... As you found yourself can fiddle the kart to whichever direction you wanted and you ended up being among the top times of the day, you may start not taking it too seriously...

Just like any racing, even these indoor go karts have tricks, a special line through this particular corner, you may leaning your body weight in certain corner to create more grip or make tighten the line, different kart have different setup and engine output (it could be the best kart 10 mins ago, then next thing you know the 200 lbs kid put that kart straight to the wall before you hop on it.) all these make you chasing off the last tenth of a second being pointless. (yeah, I'm frustrated at times :rolleyes: ) That's the time that you realized that you won't learnt anymore from "playing" these indoor kart. I would still do it once in a while, especially your local track is closed in winter and you whole driving sense had been slowed down by the everyday stop and go driving... Did I also tell you it could be the best "weight lost" exercise?? Nothing make you want to lose 10 lbs more than when you being whipped by a lady at both the straight away and the corners, and you know she's right there at the wrong line.... :wink:

I guessed what I really wanted to say is that there's a lot more dealing with a street car than an indoor go kart. Suspension travels, shifting, road irregulars just to name a few...Even a nsx feels right at home at the race track, you might experienced less g, but the seat doesn't hold you as well, losing traction in a chunk of 3000 lbs aluminum at triple digit speed could not be as easily recovered as a 300 lbs kart (with your body weight) at 20mph... you are also dealing with a much faster steering ratio in the go kart then any car...( ok except formulars)
 
Fear will slow you down, at some point in your learning curve as a driver you must come to the mental thought process that an accident (possibly a totalled car) is a part of getting the absolute best performance/lap times from the driver/car combo...that's truly being on the edge and why most racing teams budget wrecked cars into their finances....even Michael Schumacher consistantly wrecks his race cars during practices and qualifiing + races (blantantly being driver error too). With the mentality of "maintaining" your vehicle from any incidents/harm, by default, you'll be dailing the intensity/time-at-the-limit down hence slower laps times/lower performance...there's always a trade-off. What most of us amateur racers try to ultimately find is the equlibrium of ; the most time at-the-limit -to- smallest margin of safety that our skills/car set-up will allow for us to race another day and not go bankrupt/hurt in the first event. :)
 
NSXTASY_MD said:
Fear will slow you down, at some point in your learning curve as a driver you must come to the mental thought process that an accident (possibly a totalled car) is a part of getting the absolute best performance/lap times from the driver/car combo...that's truly being on the edge and why most racing teams budget wrecked cars into their finances....even Michael Schumacher consistantly wrecks his race cars during practices and qualifiing + races (blantantly being driver error too). With the mentality of "maintaining" your vehicle from any incidents/harm, by default, you'll be dailing the intensity/time-at-the-limit down hence slower laps times/lower performance...there's always a trade-off. What most of us amateur racers try to ultimately find is the equlibrium of ; the most time at-the-limit -to- smallest margin of safety that our skills/car set-up will allow for us to race another day and not go bankrupt/hurt in the first event. :)
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Very good point, and well made. Plus, if you think about it, even 'holding back' and driving the NSX at 9/10th is still one heck of a good time. :biggrin:
 
Meeyatch1 said:
Very good point, and well made. Plus, if you think about it, even 'holding back' and driving the NSX at 9/10th is still one heck of a good time. :biggrin:
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Indeed, and you gotta remember that 9/10ths of the performance envelope of a car as capable as the NSX rarely coincides with 9/10ths of the abilities of the driver/owner...to be TRULY 9/10ths in an NSX (even in stock form) is very fast* ..more than what "most" owners can handle.
 
My advice is similar to Pete's. In addition, I'd add that as you build confidence, you'll begin to stress the car more including demands on the braking, suspension, and power train. Increase your service intervals, and build a good relationship with a local tech to monitor your car. In addition to the car, you'll also begin to stress your body with higher g-force loading.

The key, in my opinion, is to ensure that the consistency in the car will exist as you push it further allowing you to build confidence. In my experience, the brakes/brake cooling, suspension bushings, and driver support are the top three areas needing improvement on the car that become a bottleneck as you build speed.

The NSX, as high performance as it is, is still a street car that was built with street car trade-offs. This will be even more apparent on cars with 15 year old braking components, suspension bushings, etc.

Building trust in the car and your abilities is definitely a rewarding experience. Good luck :)

Cheers,
-- Chris
 
Thanks for the continuous help and comments, everyone!!! :smile:


2slow2speed said:
BTW: Did you do all the events with the Silver NSX or some in the old car and some with the new?

Just wondering if there is something more than just nerves or aprehension that is affecting your on track performance.

Ken
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Hi, Ken,

I have done about 10 days with the Midnight Pearl one (95T) and 5 days with the Silver one (91Coupe). The previous owner of the silver one had equipped the car with Tein suspension (10/10 setup). I ran the 95 w/ stock yokohama and currently run the 91 w/ S03.
 
TigerNSX said:
Hi, Ken,

I have done about 10 days with the Midnight Pearl one (95T) and 5 days with the Silver one (91Coupe). The previous owner of the silver one had equipped the car with Tein suspension (10/10 setup). I ran the 95 w/ stock yokohama and currently run the 91 w/ S03.
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Hmm.. I recall hearing that your car is a car from a former NorCal guy, maybe I heard wrong...

A couple of things to keep in mind, when you went from your car to the Silver coupe there were probably many many variables that were changed all at once.

It's always possible that you are not as comfortable driving the new car as your old car.

This might be due to changes in the handling characteristics of the car, between new and old. Maybe the new car does not communicate as much, perhaps it does not have as much grip as the old one, etc.

I'm not sure if you ever posted what kinds of spins you had with your car. Spins due to lift throttle oversteer, spins due to power oversteer, spins due to putting 2 wheels off, wet pavement, differences in surfaces painted vs asphalt, etc. Spins at low speeds or spins at high speeds, etc. Spins caused by just too much speed and reaching the limits of adhesion of the tires while turning, etc.

I think that you probably need to sit down and try to analize what caused those spins. If it was simply driver error then you just need to make it a habit of not doing that error again.

If you spun without any warning or driver error or bad condtions then it's usually an indication of equipment that is not giving you enough feedback to do the corrections or even faulty equipment. By equipment I mean components on your car like suspension, sway bars, tires, tire pressures, control arms, etc.

Get someone who is knowledgeable with the NSX to drive your car, and let him decide if the car handles properly for an NSX. I usually ask Andrie to drive my car when I feel that the car is acting up, and it's always good to have input from another driver who knows the NSX well.

With the many mods it's always possible that an improperly modified NSX might actually handle worse than a stock NSX.

The only way that you will get your confidence back is by starting to eliminate the variables that are affecting your confidence. If it's the car then get the car sorted out, if it's you, then make a mental note and work on the bits that can possibly be causing you problems.

By now that you have 15 track events, you should be able to visualize how you drive a given track even if you are not on track, imagine in your mind how you would run the track and see if you can pinpoint exactly what is causing you problems. It can always be that you have picked up some bad habits unconciously along the way, but instructors should be able to catch those and work with you to correct them.

I still think that more track time will make the difference, but making sure that you are working with good equipment should be a good thing to check in the off season.

Send me a PM with a bit more information about your car, and lets compare notes.

Ken
 
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Peter Mills said:
2slow2speed said:
Get someone who is knowledgeable with the NSX to drive your car, and let him decide if the car handles properly for an NSX.

Tiger:
I'll volunteer. First decent date in April ( Lime Rock) or May (WGI SCDA).
Senior Member
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Dear Peter,

Thank you so much for your willingness to help. That would be really helpful.
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2slow2speed said:
Hmm.. I recall hearing that your car is a car from a former NorCal guy, maybe I heard wrong...

A couple of things to keep in mind, when you went from your car to the Silver coupe there were probably many many variables that were changed all at once.

It's always possible that you are not as comfortable driving the new car as your old car.

This might be due to changes in the handling characteristics of the car, between new and old. Maybe the new car does not communicate as much, perhaps it does not have as much grip as the old one, etc.

I'm not sure if you ever posted what kinds of spins you had with your car. Spins due to lift throttle oversteer, spins due to power oversteer, spins due to putting 2 wheels off, wet pavement, differences in surfaces painted vs asphalt, etc. Spins at low speeds or spins at high speeds, etc. Spins caused by just too much speed and reaching the limits of adhesion of the tires while turning, etc.

I think that you probably need to sit down and try to analize what caused those spins. If it was simply driver error then you just need to make it a habit of not doing that error again.

If you spun without any warning or driver error or bad condtions then it's usually an indication of equipment that is not giving you enough feedback to do the corrections or even faulty equipment. By equipment I mean components on your car like suspension, sway bars, tires, tire pressures, control arms, etc.

Get someone who is knowledgeable with the NSX to drive your car, and let him decide if the car handles properly for an NSX. I usually ask Andrie to drive my car when I feel that the car is acting up, and it's always good to have input from another driver who knows the NSX well.

With the many mods it's always possible that an improperly modified NSX might actually handle worse than a stock NSX.

The only way that you will get your confidence back is by starting to eliminate the variables that are affecting your confidence. If it's the car then get the car sorted out, if it's you, then make a mental note and work on the bits that can possibly be causing you problems.

By now that you have 15 track events, you should be able to visualize how you drive a given track even if you are not on track, imagine in your mind how you would run the track and see if you can pinpoint exactly what is causing you problems. It can always be that you have picked up some bad habits unconciously along the way, but instructors should be able to catch those and work with you to correct them.

I still think that more track time will make the difference, but making sure that you are working with good equipment should be a good thing to check in the off season.

Send me a PM with a bit more information about your car, and lets compare notes.

Ken
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Ken, Thank you so much for your wonderful and thorough response. I will send you a PM shortly.

Thank you.
 
Great advice from all. I'll add my own, entering my 4th season of driving events with various clubs.

When this has happened to me, it was a combination of fatigue and trying to be fast. Fatigue often goes unrecognized due to the excitement of the moment. As all here know, the physical, psychological and emotional stresses are substantial. For me, the first sign is that I begin to grip the wheel a bit more tightly than usual and my shoulders begin to hunch up. That leads me to fatigue more. What should be and usually is fun, stops being so.

My other mistakes occur when I try to "drive faster" - leads me to begin to make mistakes I wouldn't otherwise. Usually happens when I am fatigued and not driving as well as I know I can and feel like I need to "make up time" or "pick up the pace". As if there is a prize in the end ...

When I begin to notice either of these things (and I do, just as you have), I pull into the pits, end that session and take a break. Sometimes I take the rest of the day off (the area surrounding WGI is stunning as I learned after taking the rest of a day off). If and when I then decide to go out again, my only intent is to be as smooth as possible, not be fast, not be perfect, not get upset if I waive everyone else by - just to be smooth. Of course I need not explain what results from being smooth. As was said in an earlier post, there is always someone faster and better, so I just try to be smooth.

I'll be at NHIS on April 18th and WGI on May 13, 14, 15. I am in Providence, RI and would be happy to meet up with you before or at one of the tracks.
 
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Re: The inner game

Seems to me that there's an "inner game" problem that's underlying the concerns of the original post. All new track drivers (and racers) experience the anxiety of not knowing (sensing) when the car is approaching it's limit at any particular point on the track. Ross Bentley addresses this fundamental problem often in the 4 Speed Secrets books he's written. If you're inclined to do some homework inside your head and explore the many diverse ways to cross train for better car control and confidence, give these books a try. They're paper back, thin, easy to read and re-read again. He keeps you focused on your performance, not times or comparison to others.
 
NSXLuvr said:
I agree with Kenji. You should look for a cheap miata or something similar.

I am in the same boat. The tracks in Texas are fairly safe. Most of time when I spin, all it does is get the car dusty or muddy. However, I sure would hate to crunch my NSX. So, a friend of mine and I are looking for Spec miata. We are going to start out with HPDE's. When/If our skills improve, and IF we have time then we are planning on moving forward with SM SCCA racing.
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This is a cool thread. I went through the same thought process a few months ago. As I get quicker at the track this becomes more of an issue. My Dad always used to say “It’s the swimmers that drown” and in the same vain it’s the experts that wreck not the beginners. I don’t think rolling my NSX would be good from a safety point of view and even if I walked away without a scratch I can’t really afford it financially. On the other hand I could get a Miata for 2 or 3 grand and spend another 2 grand for seats harnesses and a roll cage. I think it would be safer and although I would not be super happy about smashing it up, I think I could walk away and not feel too bad.
As someone else said Karts are a good option too.
This may seem stupid but my biggest problem is convincing the wife I need another car. I’m already getting an earache for the NSX. If I told her I need a Miata for the track she would go through the roof. I just dumped $5k into the NSX this last week for a clutch and a service and she does not even know but it’s kind of hard to hide another car. My eldest Son is 13 now so in another few years I might be able to buy him a Miata and do a deal on the side.
 
Peter Mills said:
Paul:
I'll be at WGI on May 13-15 with GVC BMW. Look forward to meeting you.
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GREAT ! My favorite track and it will be my first time there with the Esprit.

I have some in-car video I shot there when with SCDA in my BMW 850CSi. Can put up the link to my imagestation account if anyone is interested. You have to join ImageStation to download, but at least it is free.
 
SugrueNSX said:
I don’t think rolling my NSX ... I can’t really afford it financially. On the other hand I could get a Miata for 2 or 3 grand and spend another 2 grand for seats harnesses and a roll cage.
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I have toyed with the same idea on many a day, but then for me it would be hard to justify having a car such as the 850CSi, Esprit or NSX. To me, while nice road rides and certainly have the "Wow" factor, they really are in their realm on the track and as you know, few things are as rewarding as taking your "baby" out and kicking some butt. I know I wouldn't be able to justify (even to myself) ever bringing the Esprit to the track if I had a track-dedicated car. Maybe if/when I get tired of my current ride I will simply go for a straight track car.
 

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