Acura may be ready for a V8 according to AutoWeek

[Arnis]

http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/FREE/61211003/1057

I know the rumors about a V-8 or V-10 in the next NSX have been thrown around quite a bit. Here is something that at least looks a little more official as of today. Autoweek is claiming that Acura has announced that a V-10 will be in the 2009 NSX.

 

[neurobound]

http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061211/FREE/61211003/1057

I know the rumors about a V-8 or V-10 in the next NSX have been thrown around quite a bit. Here is something that at least looks a little more official as of today. Autoweek is claiming that Acura has announced that a V-10 will be in the 2009 NSX.

Thanks for the post - but be aware that Honda officially announced that the NSX successor would definitely have a V-10. Almost a year ago - or two?

 

[Arnis]

Sorry for the repost. All I remember reading was lots of rumors but nothing official. I must have missed the post or my memory is just going :redface:

 

[DrVolkl]

Thanks for the post - but be aware that Honda officially announced that the NSX successor would definitely have a V-10. Almost a year ago - or two?

There is no such thing as "definitely" when it comes to the NSX. But you're right, they're leaning towards it for sure.

"I'm pushing for it," he said. "That is our direction." Acura is often criticized for not offering V8 engines with any of its cars. Ikeno said V8s are only being considered for Acura, and none would appear in the Honda lineup.

 

[Silver F16]

While a V8 will be much welcomed, I doubt it would be very "special". By that, I mean a 180 degree crank V8. With that crank configuration and that firing order, the engine will sound like a Ferrari or like any Jap 4 banger sport bike. That type of engine would be very revvy and a very sporting sound.

Instead, this will likely be a workforce V8 with 360 crankshaft configuration to be used in RL, Honda Truck, Acura SUV. And quite possibly used on a HSC or another Acura sports car slotted below the V10.

Nothing wrong with that 360 crank V8, if you like the rumble rumble of American muscle cars.

Here's a good read on pro and cons of different V8 engine configurations.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm#V8

 

[neurobound]

There is no such thing as "definitely" when it comes to the NSX. But you're right, they're leaning towards it for sure.

"I'm pushing for it," he said. "That is our direction." Acura is often criticized for not offering V8 engines with any of its cars. Ikeno said V8s are only being considered for Acura, and none would appear in the Honda lineup.

Interesting. Just to add to the completeness of quotes that I'm referring to:

July 20th, 2005
http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c050720_a.html

"< NSX successor >
We are now focused on the development of a new model to succeed the NSX for a new era. We would like to debut a new super sports car equipped with a V10 engine in 3 to 4 years. Please look forward to seeing the NSX successor."

December 20th, 2005
http://world.honda.com/news/2005/c051220.html

"With the successor model of NSX to be equipped with a V10 engine at the top of the line-up, each Acura model will have distinctive technologies including the outstanding advanced technology of SH-AWD which was introduced with RL. We will further grow Acura as a global luxury brand focused on advanced technology ahead of the times. "

You're right, definite was the wrong word to use, but I've yet to see any mention of a v8 from honda when discussing the NSX successor. I just tire hearing rumors of front-engine mount designs, v8-engines being talked about like they hold as much weight as the V-10 spec, that has on multiple occations been specifically mentioned by Honda.

 

[THEREDNSX]

The sales reps at the Hall Acura in Newport News, Virginia are confirming the V-10engine upgrade. I also suspect that there may be an engine option for the next generation. Hall Acura stated that the cost of the 2009 NSX would start somewhere in the mid to high 90's and then cap out at or slightly above 130K.
Start filling you Piggy Banks now! :smile:

Food for thought! You say a New NSX is out of reach at six figures! Not exactly!
If you just got to have one and don't mind paying for a car for 12 years; there is a way! But I warn you now, only go that route if it is to be your Leisure Vehicle. And if you're that wild and crazy I would highly recommend a buying new one, a warranty and service contract to cover all 12 years financed, and that you borrow no more than 60k. Now you have world class exotic car for the price (monthly expense) of new 350z. An NSX will easily last 12 years if you’re not hammering it every day and it holds its value better any car in it’s class (as well as most other classes to according to Consumer reports). Key word “Leisure Vehicle” and garaged with a 5000-6000 mile per year limit (it’s your car drive it if you want to).

How much can you save in 3 years? I don’t plan on borrowing anything anywhere near 60K! And I’m keeping my old one; so forget it!:biggrin:

 

[NSXGMS]

The sales reps at the Hall Acura in Newport News, Virginia are confirming the V-10engine upgrade. I also suspect that there may be an engine option for the next generation. Hall Acura stated that the cost of the 2009 NSX would start somewhere in the mid to high 90's and then cap out at or slightly above 130K.

I think they know that because of the Honda statements above...

No offense pal but please, please--everyone understand that dealership sales reps have NO idea what's going on at HQ in Japan. It just isn't happening. Let's see--no news on the net, TV, paper or radio about any official statements from Honda whatsoever except the two blurbs above from 7/2005 & 12/2005. Where are they getting their info?

And BTW, what's the motivation for any company to tell their dealers about cars that aren't even official yet? If I were in charge I'd consider that a distraction to my workers. I would want my salespeople to focus on cars that either do exist or will definitely exist soon.

Mike from Bridgewater Acura (The Kid) is a sales manager for a dealer that sold a fair amount of NSXs. He's one of the most frequent contributors here. If dealers were being told anything substantive he would surely be letting us know. But remarkably, not a peep from him on the subject. And it's not because he's shy. I don't know but something tells me Honda isn't dishing out real company secrets to it's dealer sales reps...who better to keep confidential corporate info on the QT.

Sure, Mike hears things. But he knows that anything other than an official statement from Honda is crap. Mag articles, spy shots, cousins who work in Honda's design studios in LA--all CRAP. 100% of those BS "first look" articles in Motor Trend, etc. are designed to SELL RAGS. If you think there's one iota of fact in any of them you're high.

Heard this one lately: "Honda reveals NSX successor to be front-engined V-10 based on the RL." Yep, you've seen that. Except a front-engined car WON'T be an NSX successor--period. Oh, and did they mention it's not all-aluminum? Or a 2-seater? So how is it like the NSX at all? Sounds like a fancy RL... Any way to work "NSX successor" in there...

I'm not trying to publicly flog ya THEREDNSX but I'm trying to hopefully guide you away from bad info. Everyone needs to stay patient for an indefinite amount of time. The most accurate info we have, and it truly is the most accurate, is Honda saying there will be an NSX successor and it will have a V-10 and the estimated timeframe is late 2008-early 2009. Putting the pieces together if we don't hear anything by mid-2007, based on Honda's past history of developing/marketing vehicles it's safe to say late 2009-early 2010 is the new timeframe.

But that's all, and I do mean ALL, we know.

 

[THEREDNSX]

I agree that the dealer reps do not have conclusive information on the next version of the NSX but the HSC concept car is being used to formulate the NSX’s successor, or is the HSC unveiled at the 2003 Toyko Motor show in Japan not an official statement from the manufacture. The only question I have is what makes anyone the expert on someone else’s car company. Honda CEO Takeo Fukui stated last year that the replacement NSX would in fact have a V-10 and that the car would be released in the 2007 to 2009 time frame. There again please correct me if I shouldn’t listen to anything coming from Honda CEO Takeo Fukui. The NSX successor now has lineage and will be respected as a world class Super Car by even the most critical car enthusiast. As for the V-8; pure speculation on my part; Honda has offered America power options for a while now; so why not a V-8 or V-10 option. When it’s all said and done, I could be wrong about everything and it still wouldn't matter because if there’s to be a successor to the NSX; we know that it will be an excellent car that will be worth every penny.

P.S. Isn’t the Honda FCX Concept the car that was based on the RL platform? Anyone!

 

[NSXGMS]

I agree that the dealer reps do not have conclusive information on the next version of the NSX but the HSC concept car is being used to formulate the NSX’s successor, or is the HSC unveiled at the 2003 Toyko Motor show in Japan not an official statement from the manufacture. The only question I have is what makes anyone the expert on someone else’s car company. Honda CEO Takeo Fukui stated last year that the replacement NSX would in fact have a V-10 and that the car would be released in the 2007 to 2009 time frame. There again please correct me if I shouldn’t listen to anything coming from Honda CEO Takeo Fukui. The NSX successor now has lineage and will be respected as a world class Super Car by even the most critical car enthusiast. As for the V-8; pure speculation on my part; Honda has offered America power options for a while now; so why not a V-8 or V-10 option. When it’s all said and done, I could be wrong about everything and it still wouldn't matter because if there’s to be a successor to the NSX; we know that it will be an excellent car that will be worth every penny.

P.S. Isn’t the Honda FCX Concept the car that was based on the RL platform? Anyone!

The comments from Fukui were that an NSX successor, with a V-10, would be debuted in 3-4 years from mid- 2005. I'm not sure how that translates to 2007 or even 2008 really...

The "HSC concept" is dead. That was introduced as a concept only in 2003. Honda never made any allusion to actually producing that car. IMO the HSC needed to be introduced in 2001-2002 and actually released in 2002-2003 to be successful, not introduced in 2003. I think the impending debut of the Ferrari F430 in 2004 had a lot to do with the scrapping of the HSC project, personally. I've commented on that previously as part of Honda's day-late, dollar-short philosophy concerning the NSX and their overall failure to market and evolve the NSX.

As far as the V-8 it doesn't make sense to develop a V-8 specifically for a de-tuned NSX when the V-10 is being developed as the main powerplant (which we can confirm through official comments). They probably won't be able to share that block with the Ridgeline (or equivalent) so it would be NSX-specific. I don't see two separate engines being developed from the ground up for the notoriously unprofitable NSX project. It's more likely we'll see a highly tuned V-6, possibly the same motor slated for the HSC, for any "de-tuned" models of the next NSX.

Notwithstanding I do, however, think Honda missed the boat by not developing the S2000 blocks into a workable ~500hp V-8. It could have been one of the greatest engines ever, IMO.

 

[neurobound]

I think they know that because of the Honda statements above... The most accurate info we have, and it truly is the most accurate, is Honda saying there will be an NSX successor and it will have a V-10 and the estimated timeframe is late 2008-early 2009. Putting the pieces together if we don't hear anything by mid-2007, based on Honda's past history of developing/marketing vehicles it's safe to say late 2009-early 2010 is the new timeframe.

But that's all, and I do mean ALL, we know.

Very very well said.

 

[NSXrebel]

The "HSC concept" is dead. That was introduced as a concept only in 2003. Honda never made any allusion to actually producing that car. IMO the HSC needed to be introduced in 2001-2002 and actually released in 2002-2003 to be successful, not introduced in 2003. I think the impending debut of the Ferrari F430 in 2004 had a lot to do with the scrapping of the HSC project, personally. I've commented on that previously as part of Honda's day-late, dollar-short philosophy concerning the NSX and their overall failure to market and evolve the NSX.

And how do you know the HSC concept is "dead"? Did your local salesman tell you that?

 

[NSXGMS]

And how do you know the HSC concept is "dead"? Did your local salesman tell you that?

I don't need to justify it's non-existence. Show me evidence it's still on the table and I'll change my mind...:wink:

 

[nsx1]

And how do you know the HSC concept is "dead"? Did your local salesman tell you that?

I don't need to justify it's non-existence. Show me evidence it's still on the table and I'll change my mind...:wink:

I thought NSXrebel was asking a fair question.

To my understanding, a "Dream Car" is one that the manufacturer never plans on producing, but a "Concept Car" is for different purposes. A Concept Car can be a showcase of upcoming technologies, upcoming designs, or to gauge consumer interest of upcoming models, etc. Granted, some Concept Cars never do make it to production, perhaps because of a lack of consumer interest, etc. But on the other side, look at the PT Cruiser... it was first introduced as a "Concept Car". The production version was almost exactly identical. Right now, GM has a Concept Camaro and Chrysler a Concept Challenger. I wonder how close they will be to the real production versions.

Honda may have stated that the HSC was never intended for production... I don't know. But if they did, then that evidence would be the answer to NSXrebels question.

 

[NSXGMS]

I thought NSXrebel was asking a fair question.

To my understanding, a "Dream Car" is one that the manufacturer never plans on producing, but a "Concept Car" is for different purposes. A Concept Car can be a showcase of upcoming technologies, upcoming designs, or to gauge consumer interest of upcoming models, etc. Granted, some Concept Cars never do make it to production, perhaps because of a lack of consumer interest, etc. But on the other side, look at the PT Cruiser... it was first introduced as a "Concept Car". The production version was almost exactly identical. Right now, GM has a Concept Camaro and Chrysler a Concept Challenger. I wonder how close they will be to the real production versions.

Honda may have stated that the HSC was never intended for production... I don't know. But if they did, then that evidence would be the answer to NSXrebels question.

I'm not sure why my comments were interpreted as saying concept cars categorically don't make it to production or are not indicative of a future directions. I stated the HSC was never anything more than a concept at any point. Honda made no official statement regarding it's production future, ever.

To suggest that the HSC is still a project Honda is developing is baseless. Aside from lack of any official statement it hasn't been displayed in years. All we really got from Honda on the car were specs which at the time was a just passable ~3.5L, ~350hp V-6. It appeared in 2003 that it was likely to be built as the NSX successor. Even I thought it was more likely that not. But that was when the NSX was still being produced and before the C6 Z06, 997 TT, Gallardo and F430.

As far as I and everyone else can tell the HSC is dead. There are no signs of life. Yes, at one point, it seemed close to production. But that was nearly 4 years ago. It's not going to happen.

 

[THEREDNSX]

Hmmm!

How 'bout that 2008 Acura V-10?

 

[Liquid]

Am I the only one that wishes Honda/Acura was moving towards developing a 4-4.5L V-8 rather than a 5L+ V-10? As a company, they have never been about having the biggest displacement or most cylinders, they have been about doing innovative things to raise the potential of compact, smaller engines. Moving in the V-8 direction would also likely lead to other benefits such as better fuel economy, less weight, etc. I have also read about concerns with the durability of the V-10 design and I also think the V-8 has more applicability across their product line than the V-10.

But everyone seems to think more cylinders = better.

 

[NSXGMS]

Am I the only one that wishes Honda/Acura was moving towards developing a 4-4.5L V-8 rather than a 5L+ V-10? As a company, they have never been about having the biggest displacement or most cylinders, they have been about doing innovative things to raise the potential of compact, smaller engines. Moving in the V-8 direction would also likely lead to other benefits such as better fuel economy, less weight, etc. I have also read about concerns with the durability of the V-10 design and I also think the V-8 has more applicability across their product line than the V-10.

But everyone seems to think more cylinders = better.

No, you're not. The only allure to a V-10 is it's "exotic" factor. Well, there's a reason only three manufacturers have developed a V-10--it's a inherently difficult engine to produce and support. Of the three V-10s in production two are new and one is just a displacement beast that isn't comparable to the others or what Honda intends.

The BMW and Audi V-10s simply have not been around long enough to show they will actually last over the long term. Who knows? Honda could easily squeeze 500-550hp from a 4.5-5.0L V-8. Why would they even want to develop a 5.0L V-10? BTW, I don't think anyone really even cares that the M5 & 6 and the Gallardo have a V-10. How many cars do you think they sell strictly because of the V-10? Probably not many.

Developing a V-8 is just much more logical. Developing a V-10 just seems to be going against Honda's roots in terms of maximizing efficiency and in so many other ways. Not to mention Honda's not even thinking about either until recently. Why don't they just buy their V-8s from Toyota already... The way this is going Nissan will have a V-8 before Honda...ooops...they already do. :frown:

 

[ericwgnsx]

Honda and Acura are perceived by many as being behind the curve and not as serious of a luxury marque because they only have a v-6 available. The reality is, as one 'primer stated: more cylinders = better. That is the reality.

At the same time, I guess it would look foolish in the eyes of the public for Honda to be on this high-profile "green" kick, and then at the same time introduce a V-10.

 

[NSXGMS]

Honda and Acura are perceived by many as being behind the curve and not as serious of a luxury marque because they only have a v-6 available. The reality is, as one 'primer stated: more cylinders = better. That is the reality.

At the same time, I guess it would look foolish in the eyes of the public for Honda to be on this high-profile "green" kick, and then at the same time introduce a V-10.

This V-10 is not going to bring Acura to Lexus status or allow them to sell more trucks than Toyota. Toyota doesn't have a V-10 and probably will never develop one. Why? They aren't lost in space like Honda is right now.

 

[sahtt]

Let's face it, 400hp, V8, 3200lbs, etc. is great and all, but the NSX needs that something special. The bar has been raised several times since 1991. It needs to stand out against better performing chevy's, cheaper Skylines [and supras?], and more exotic lambo's and ferrari's.

How could Honda convince the world the new NSX is back and is going to make just as much presence as the first NSX did, therefore being an acceptable 2nd generation. How can they display their passion and dedication to this project and are dead serious about reinforcing and continueing the exotic factor/smart buy combination we still admire today?

I think with a V10 they could do it. The gallardo might be more elite, the ferrari better curves, the porsche more heritage, the corvette unmatchable raw V8 performance, but Honda has the corvette's asset of durability/reliablity [compared to the others listed there is no question even the 911 maint. cost wise], yet confidently sit in the parking lot with the exotics with the V10.

If Dodge can do it, for " 's" sake Honda can.

However, all hopes of a 3200lbs car should be seriously reevaluated under the circumstances. Price will go up as well. A 3200lbs V8, or a 3350lbs V10, I'd probably honestly take the V10 just because a V8 will never have the same feel near idle as a V10 or V12. Now if the V10 is 300lbs heavier due to the engine, increased chassis rigidity, beefier drivetrain, etc. AND 15k$ more.. no thanks [probably more realistic].

 

[NSXGMS]

Let's face it, 400hp, V8, 3200lbs, etc. is great and all, but the NSX needs that something special. The bar has been raised several times since 1991. It needs to stand out against better performing chevy's, cheaper Skylines [and supras?], and more exotic lambo's and ferrari's.

How could Honda convince the world the new NSX is back and is going to make just as much presence as the first NSX did, therefore being an acceptable 2nd generation. How can they display their passion and dedication to this project and are dead serious about reinforcing and continueing the exotic factor/smart buy combination we still admire today?

I think with a V10 they could do it. The gallardo might be more elite, the ferrari better curves, the porsche more heritage, the corvette unmatchable raw V8 performance, but Honda has the corvette's asset of durability/reliablity [compared to the others listed there is no question even the 911 maint. cost wise], yet confidently sit in the parking lot with the exotics with the V10.

If Dodge can do it, for " 's" sake Honda can.

However, all hopes of a 3200lbs car should be seriously reevaluated under the circumstances. Price will go up as well. A 3200lbs V8, or a 3350lbs V10, I'd probably honestly take the V10 just because a V8 will never have the same feel near idle as a V10 or V12. Now if the V10 is 300lbs heavier due to the engine, increased chassis rigidity, beefier drivetrain, etc. AND 15k$ more.. no thanks [probably more realistic].

I don't disagree with any of this. At this point I would just like to see anything but I would rather have the V-12 than a V-10. The reason there are so few V-10s is because they are inherently difficult engines to design and support. The jury is still out on both the BMW and the Audi V-10 and will be for a very long time as the cars in which the V-10s are contained will probably see less than 5K miles per year for many years. It's safe to say if Honda develops a V-10 it will be the most driven V-10 ever.

The Chrysler V-10 that powers the Viper is apples and oranges compared to any V-10 Honda will develop. That engine puts out 62.5 hp/L. That engine is operating at a level nowhere near the BMW, Audi or potential Honda V-10. Anyone can make a V-10 last forever at 62.5 hp/L.

To me, the V-10 is just a novelty Honda has talked themselves into. Why does anyone need to manufacture V-10s? It's not like Honda is paving the way for anything with a V-10. It's not a legitimate innovation like Ti conrods or Al construction. There's no benefit--there's no point. The V-10 isn't the future of automobiles. F1 has dropped it--they may or may not ever go back to it. It's just a frivoulous undertaking. It's development for the sake of development. I don't believe in that. If you have a legitimate innovation, develop it. Otherwise, stick to what works--especially if you're getting your butt handed to you by your competitors.

The bottome line is they need a V-8 no matter what they think and how many V-10s, V-12s or whatever else they decide to build but don't need. Anything they can do with a V-10 they can do with a V-8. Honda is capable of 120 hp/L. A 480 hp 4.0L V-8 would make everyone happy. That engine would not disappoint.

The longer they fail to develop a V-8 the longer Toyota and Nissan will have the upper hand.

 

[sahtt]

I don't disagree with any of this. At this point I would just like to see anything but I would rather have the V-12 than a V-10. The reason there are so few V-10s is because they are inherently difficult engines to design and support. The jury is still out on both the BMW and the Audi V-10 and will be for a very long time as the cars in which the V-10s are contained will probably see less than 5K miles per year for many years. It's safe to say if Honda develops a V-10 it will be the most driven V-10 ever.

The Chrysler V-10 that powers the Viper is apples and oranges compared to any V-10 Honda will develop. That engine puts out 62.5 hp/L. That engine is operating at a level nowhere near the BMW, Audi or potential Honda V-10. Anyone can make a V-10 last forever at 62.5 hp/L.

To me, the V-10 is just a novelty Honda has talked themselves into. Why does anyone need to manufacture V-10s? It's not like Honda is paving the way for anything with a V-10. It's not a legitimate innovation like Ti conrods or Al construction. There's no benefit--there's no point. The V-10 isn't the future of automobiles. F1 has dropped it--they may or may not ever go back to it. It's just a frivoulous undertaking. It's development for the sake of development. I don't believe in that. If you have a legitimate innovation, develop it. Otherwise, stick to what works--especially if you're getting your butt handed to you by your competitors.

The bottome line is they need a V-8 no matter what they think and how many V-10s, V-12s or whatever else they decide to build but don't need. Anything they can do with a V-10 they can do with a V-8. Honda is capable of 120 hp/L. A 480 hp 4.0L V-8 would make everyone happy. That engine would not disappoint.

The longer they fail to develop a V-8 the longer Toyota and Nissan will have the upper hand.

I also agree with your post in totality. If Honda goes with the V10, it will only be for the NSX and they'll still have to develop a V8 for any real acura performance sedan platform. That's a lot of work to complete in a couple years [they should have done it 5 years ago].

Lexus researches each variation of their V8's anywhere from 6-10 years before release.

 

[Liquid]

I totally agree with NSXGMS on every point.

Honda is not breaking ground with the V-10, merely following the footsteps of other competitors. If the argument is to break new ground or be different than the competition, the V-12 would be the way to do so. I almost put this into my previous post that I would rather see them go with a V-12 than a V-10 if they weren't going to produce a V-8.

But beyond that, there are HUGE benefits to the company by leveraging the development cost and organizational investment in a V-8 across multiple platforms rather than a one off V-10. The V-10 makes such little sense to even the casual enthusiast, I really wonder if this is a master smoke and mirrors job by Honda to conceal the development of their V-8.

 

[Spooler]

What I wonder is...

So they make the car...maybe V-10 FR or mid V-8. Shock the world with new techology etc, sell the first year or two....Then What?

Will they be dedicated enough this time around to build on the design and keep it current?

This is something Honda does with there top sellers but it just doesn't seem to be in there make-up to do the same with there sports models...after all there are only two. The other brands OTOH, are totally dedicated to there models and upgrade accordingly.

No matter how good the new car may be, with so many great cars out there already, it will never match the impact of the original. The first car served it's purpose admirably..maybe just leave it at that. Unless Honda truly dedicates itself to being a sports car company , what's the point?

Pains me to say this but...I don't think they should build anything.

spooler