"A date which will live in infamy"

[Joel]

It just dawned on me what today was.
Is there anybody in here who was even alive, much less remember living through the day of Dec 7, 1941?! This event would be like Sept. 11th for me.
____________________________________________

Pearl Harbor Anniversary Marked by Tributes

PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii — With U.S. troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, Americans marked the anniversary today of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor with a salute to the nation's resilience 63 years ago.

"It was a day when weaker souls would have surrendered," Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii, said of the Dec. 7, 1941, attack that thrust the United States into World War II. "It was a day that gave real meaning to our name the United States of America."

He added: "Today, the obstructions and challenges are many -- the ugly voices of hatred and the unconscionable actions of terrorism around us intending to make us afraid."

Inouye, a Japanese-American recipient of the Medal of Honor, spoke to more than 1,000 people gathered at the USS Arizona Memorial visitor center to commemorate the attack.

Just 17 and living in Honolulu at the time of the attack, Inouye lost his right arm serving in Europe as a member of the Army's distinguished 442nd Regimental Combat Team, made up almost entirely of Japanese-Americans.

"The story of this day must be repeated, not only to recall the threat and destruction, but it's important to remember the resilience and the unwavering spirit of the American people," he said.

A moment of silence at 7:55 a.m. marked the exact time when the Japanese bombs began to fall, killing more than 2,000 Americans. Hawaii Air National Guard jets flew overhead in the missing-man formation.

On the eve of the anniversary, a dwindling number of survivors returned to the site of their most haunting memories to honor the 429 dead from the USS Oklahoma, which capsized after being struck by Japanese torpedoes. The Oklahoma suffered the second-highest number of Pearl Harbor casualties behind the USS Arizona, which lost 1,177 crewmen.

A new permanent exhibit on the Oklahoma at the USS Arizona Memorial opened to the public today. Survivors of the USS Oklahoma are pressing for a permanent memorial.

In all, about 2,390 people were killed in the surprise attack

 

[Joel]

War memories still stir many

By William Cole
Advertiser Staff Writer

A moment of silence at 7:55 a.m. — the moment the attack began — was punctuated today by four F-15 fighters soaring above the open-topped memorial in a missing-man formation.
About 35 Pearl Harbor survivors and their families today attended the 63rd commemoration of the surprise attack along with more than 150 military members, veterans and invited guests.

The destroyer USS Chung-Hoon passed in review, veterans dropped flowers into the well of the memorial for those lost and echo Taps was played by a 19-piece band.

It was fighters and bombers of a different sort that came winging in on that morning, raining death on a Sunday in Hawai'i and launching the United States into World War II.

Sixy-three years later, it is still an emotional journey for survivors like Marvin Kaufmann, 83, who lives near Vancouver, Wash.

Kaufmann was aboard the USS Whitney, a destroyer repair ship off Ford Island.

"I watched the whole thing," he said. "I watched the Arizona explode. I happened to look over there and there were three gigantic explosions."

Kaufmann had sailed over on the Arizona from California, and on a previous visit to the memorial, he noticed the names of the 14-member band that had entertained the troops from California.

"I looked up and saw all those guys' names and they were such good musicians and every one of them is down here," he said, gesturing to the rusted hulk below. "I have to swallow a little bit."

Yuell Chandler, now 86, was a sergeant in the Army at Fort Kamehameha at the mouth of Pearl Harbor. The Royal Kunia man remembers a Japanese aircraft crashing nearby, killing three to four men on a the dock.

After all these years, Chandler said the emotion is still there.

"I've tried my damnedest to forget it," he said. "I saw all these guys piled up like cordwood, being shipped in coffins."

Five battleships and three other ships were sunk or beached and 13 other ships were damaged. More than 2,000 sailors lost their lives in the attack, along with several hundred other service members and civilians.

Vice Adm. Gary Roughead, deputy commander of U.S. Pacific Command, the keynote speaker, drew comparisons between the aging fighting men of a bygone era and the young soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan today.

"The intrepid spirit and tenacity of heart displayed that December day is deeply ingrained in today's forces who even as we speak fight to bring liberty and freedom to people deserving and thirsting for just that," Roughead said.

Ansil L. Saunders, 86, from Wahiawa makes the trip to either the Arizona Memorial or the Visitors Center every Dec. 7. On that date in 1941, he was in the Navy at the Aiea Landing.

"We had a birds-eye-view of all of battleship row," he said. "We were so busy we didn't have much time to worry about anybody else."

He said he had a lot of mixed feelings when the smoke lifted after the attack.

"I was angry, but right at the time I didn't know who to be angry at," Saunders said.

He never held a grudge against the Japanese people.

"It wasn't the Japanese people per se. It was their military — those are the ones I got mad at, not the people themselves," Saunders said.

He comes out every year because he feels a sense of obligation to the shipmates who aren't here anymore.

Louis W. Nockold, 82, came in from Newport Beach, Calif., with his wife, daughter and a friend for the service. On Dec. 7, 1941, he was on the USS Honolulu, a light cruiser tied up in the shipyard. A bomb exploded on the pier next to the ship but no one was killed.

He, too, is a survivor and like a lot of the other aging vets in more ways than one.

Estimates are that more than 1,100 World War II veterans die each month. The last year has brought a host of health problems for Nockold, that led to the loss of his leg.

"I just feel so damned fortunate to be here," Nockold said from a wheelchair. "I just feel good that I was able to make it one more time."

 

[nsxtasy]

Is there anybody in here who was even alive, much less remember living through the day of Dec 7, 1941?! This event would be like Sept. 11th for me.

There are certain events which are so memorable, that most folks who lived through them remember for the rest of their lives exactly where they were at the time that they heard the news.

For those alive in the 1940s, Pearl Harbor and the day FDR died are such events.

In the 1960s, it was when JFK was shot and when man walked on the moon.

In the 1980s, it was the Challenger disaster.

In the first decade of this century, it's the September 11 attacks.

I'm sure there will be other events in the future. It's just impossible to anticipate what they might be. (Part of the memorability factor is just how shocking those events were at the time; events that can be easily predicted are not likely to qualify.)

 

[Eric C.]

As I looked up and down my street today I was struck by the fact that I was the only house flying a flag... :frown:

 

[4AU4LIFE]

I realized what day it was. My grandfather was there the day before the BIG day. I didn't know how much of a wealth of knowledge he was and had until I grew up a bit and really began to talk at length with him. He didn't like to talk much about it but would if you asked him.
Man, I miss him. :frown: :frown:

 

[Eric C.]

My great uncle was at pearl on the West Virginia...I'm glad not to be speaking German or Japanese right now thanks to them and alot of young men who never got a chance to grow old.

 

[Eric5273]

As much as I like to celebrate one fraud portrayed on the American public and then compare it to another, I will decline. December 7, 1941 is not a day to be celebrated at all. It was a very dismal event in American history that we should be ashamed of. Obviously we should mourn those who needlessly lost their lives, but that's about it. This is my favorite Pearl Harbor article. It was written on the 59th anniversary, December 7, 2000, in a Hawaiian newspaper:

December 7, 1941: A Setup from the Beginning
December 7, 2000
Robert B. Stinnett
Honolulu Advertiser

As Americans honor those 2403 men, women, and children killed—and 1178 wounded—in the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on December 7, 1941, recently released government documents concerning that “surprise” raid compel us to revisit some troubling questions.

At issue is American foreknowledge of Japanese military plans to attack Hawaii by a submarine and carrier force 59 years ago. There are two questions at the top of the foreknowledge list: (1) whether President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his top military chieftains provoked Japan into an “overt act of war” directed at Hawaii, and (2) whether Japan’s military plans were obtained in advance by the United States but concealed from the Hawaiian military commanders, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel and Lieutenant General Walter Short so they would not interfere with the overt act.

The latter question was answered in the affirmative on October 30, 2000, when President Bill Clinton signed into law, with the support of a bipartisan Congress, the National Defense Authorization Act. Amidst its omnibus provisions, the Act reverses the findings of nine previous Pearl Harbor investigations and finds that both Kimmel and Short were denied crucial military intelligence that tracked the Japanese forces toward Hawaii and obtained by the Roosevelt Administration in the weeks before the attack.

Congress was specific in its finding against the 1941 White House: Kimmel and Short were cut off from the intelligence pipeline that located Japanese forces advancing on Hawaii. Then, after the successful Japanese raid, both commanders were relieved of their commands, blamed for failing to ward off the attack, and demoted in rank.

President Clinton must now decide whether to grant the request by Congress to restore the commanders to their 1941 ranks. Regardless of what the Commander-in-Chief does in the remaining months of his term, these congressional findings should be widely seen as an exoneration of 59 years of blame assigned to Kimmel and Short.

But one important question remains: Does the blame for the Pearl Harbor disaster revert to President Roosevelt?

A major motion picture based on the attack is currently under production by Walt Disney Studios and scheduled for release in May 2001. The producer, Jerry Bruckheimer, refuses to include America’s foreknowledge in the script. When Bruckheimer commented on FDR’s foreknowledge in an interview published earlier this year, he said “That’s all b___s___.

Yet, Roosevelt believed that provoking Japan into an attack on Hawaii was the only option he had in 1941 to overcome the powerful America First non-interventionist movement led by aviation hero Charles Lindbergh. These anti-war views were shared by 80 percent of the American public from 1940 to 1941. Though Germany had conquered most of Europe, and her U-Boats were sinking American ships in the Atlantic Ocean—including warships—Americans wanted nothing to do with “Europe’s War.”

However, Germany made a strategic error. She, along with her Axis partner, Italy, signed the mutual assistance treaty with Japan, the Tripartite Pact, on September 27, 1940. Ten days later, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum, a U.S. Naval officer in the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), saw an opportunity to counter the U.S. isolationist movement by provoking Japan into a state of war with the U.S., triggering the mutual assistance provisions of the Tripartite Pact, and bringing America into World War II.

Memorialized in McCollum’s secret memo dated October 7, 1940, and recently obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, the ONI proposal called for eight provocations aimed at Japan. Its centerpiece was keeping the might of the U.S. Fleet based in the Territory of Hawaii as a lure for a Japanese attack.

President Roosevelt acted swiftly. The very next day, October 8, 1940, the Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. Fleet, Admiral James O. Richardson, was summoned to the Oval Office and told of the provocative plan by the President. In a heated argument with FDR, the admiral objected to placing his sailors and ships in harm’s way. Richardson was then fired and in his place FDR selected an obscure naval officer, Rear Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, to command the fleet in Hawaii. Kimmel was promoted to a four-star admiral and took command on February 1, 1941. In a related appointment, Walter Short was promoted from Major General to a three-star Lieutenant General and given command of U.S. Army troops in Hawaii.

Throughout 1941, FDR implemented the remaining seven provocations. He then gauged Japanese reaction through intercepted and decoded communications intelligence originated by Japan’s diplomatic and military leaders.

The island nation’s militarists used the provocations to seize control of Japan and organized their military forces for war against the U.S., Great Britain, and the Netherlands. The centerpiece—the Pearl Harbor attack—was leaked to the U.S. in January 1941. During the next 11 months, the White House followed the Japanese war plans through the intercepted and decoded diplomatic and military communications intelligence.

Japanese leaders failed in basic security precautions. At least 1,000 Japanese military and diplomatic radio messages per day were intercepted by monitoring stations operated by the U.S. and her Allies, and the message contents were summarized for the White House. The intercept summaries were clear: Pearl Harbor would be attacked on December 7, 1941, by Japanese forces advancing through the Central and North Pacific Oceans. On November 27 and 28, 1941, Admiral Kimmel and General Short were ordered to remain in a defensive posture for “the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act.” The order came directly from President Roosevelt.

As I explained to a policy forum audience at The Independent Institute in Oakland, California, which was videotaped and telecast nationwide over the Fourth of July holiday earlier this year, my research of U.S. naval records shows that not only were Kimmel and Short cut off from the Japanese communications intelligence pipeline, so were the American people. It is a coverup that has lasted for nearly 59 years.

Immediately after December 7, 1941, military communications documents that disclose American foreknowledge of the Pearl Harbor disaster were locked in U.S. Navy vaults away from the prying eyes of congressional investigators, historians, and authors. Though the Freedom of Information Act freed the foreknowledge documents from the secretive vaults to the sunlight of the National Archives in 1995, a cottage industry continues to cover up America’s foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor.

 

[Joel]

There are certain events which are so memorable, that most folks who lived through them remember for the rest of their lives exactly where they were at the time that they heard the news.

In the 1980s, it was the Challenger disaster.

I remember THAT day. January 28, 1986. This date will stick with me forever. I was coming in from recess in 6th grade. With tears pouring, the teachers turned on the TV and the rest of us sat in silence. We couldn't believe what we were seeing. It looked like a hollywood movie. It wasn't.

Later on, that same sinking feeling resurfaced when Columbia disintegrated during entry. I couldn't believe I was re-living that moment again 17 years later. :frown:

 

[Eric C.]

I sure the Japanese raping of the far east had nothing to do with any US decisions....
Almost anyone who knows the facts...more then 1 article you read...could tell you that war was almost assured in the early 30's with Japan. Only the time and place were in doubt. Indeed the Japanese thought we would sue for peace as opposed to fight. Hmmm the PC crowd and the re writing of history... :tongue:

 

[Joel]

Eric5273,

I don't know if you're trying to start a politically heated discussion--again--but am I getting you right? Are you saying FDR welcomed an attack on Pearl Harbor?

 

[blknsxnoc]

I sure the Japanese raping of the far east had nothing to do with any US decisions....

Sorry Eric,

I'm not following you here.. Based on the government's dedication to Isolationism and Non-Intervention that existed at the time, I would guess that conditions in the Far East were of little if not of any concern to US foreign policy...

 

[Eric C.]

Actually FDR was consumed by the Japanese threat...as for the desire to be isolationist and not intervine while Japan raped and plundered...there you have have us letting them bring the fight to us...

 

[Eric5273]

Are you saying FDR welcomed an attack on Pearl Harbor?

I'm not saying anything. Just posting an article written a couple of years ago by an author who has written a NY Times best seller on the subject and is considered to be an expert on the subject of Pearl Harbor.

Why do you care about my opinion? Everyone should read stuff on their own and form their own opinions. From your question, I'm guessing you are not familiar with the McCollum memo. I think the article above explains very clearly what the McCollum memo is -- this document was released around 1995 through the Freedom of Information Act. So rather than ask my opinion, or take this author's opinion as fact, do yourself a favor -- enter "McCollum memo" into your google search engine, read some of the articles or essays that come up, which will likely give varying opinions on the subject, and then come to your own conclusion.

Or you can simply do what most people do -- just dismiss the entire memo and all the recently released evidence and not let the facts cloud your judgement. :tongue:

As far as my opinion, I am clueless as to why we celebrate this as if it were a holiday. It was a dismal day in American history and one we should be ashamed of. Whether you believe that it was due to utter incompetence of one of our nation's top generals (the theory put forth by FDR's commission) or it was actually encouraged (the more recent theory) -- either way it was a disgrace that so many people had to die, yet we celebrate it. I wonder if the Germans celebrate the fire-bombing of Dresden.

 

[gheba_nsx]

In the 1980s, it was the Challenger disaster.

I am too young for the 70s and before, but for the 80s I remember in particular the Tiananmen Square protests in China, the fall of the Berlin wall and the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. It is interesting how some thousand miles of distance change the perception of things even between very similar population and culture (US and Europe).

I always considered the Challenger minor stuff (afterall flying in a spaceship is something dangerous and problems on the long term can be expected) and I did not know that in the US it was a crucial event. Probably the media didn't give it a lot of resonance outside the US.

 

[cmhs75]

How about the event of USA getting kicked out of Vietnam,

Wasn’t that a totally unexpected event?


Especially with all the odds against Vietnam,

Is there a memorial for this day?

 

[LJSB]

I knew and had some very good friends that were at Pearl Harbor on the "day of infamy" but luckily survived. They went on to fight in WWII and happily survived that too. Sadly, they are now gone. I think of them on this holiday and thank my lucky stars we had them here when we needed them. Some did not care for Roosevelt as a President and blamed the war that they fought on him but they knew he wasn't the fellow shooting at them, diving their planes in the side of their ships.

Freedom of speech is like a public toilet where everyone has something to "contribute".
The ones with diarrhea of the mouth and make the biggest "stink" look down on the janitors who have to clean up, making the public toilet possible. They don't thank the janitors or realize how lucky we are to have them.
These "patrons" grow up with their mommy's wiping their butt, patting them on the head, sending them back to to play telling them they are brilliant and wonderful. They become adults that think what comes out of them is something more than it is.

I will now flush, wash my hands and walk out the door. :wink:
Next time I'll just hold my breath.

 

[nsxtasy]

I am too young for the 70s and before, but for the 80s I remember in particular the Tiananmen Square protests in China, the fall of the Berlin wall and the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. It is interesting how some thousand miles of distance change the perception of things even between very similar population and culture (US and Europe).

I always considered the Challenger minor stuff (afterall flying in a spaceship is something dangerous and problems on the long term can be expected) and I did not know that in the US it was a crucial event. Probably the media didn't give it a lot of resonance outside the US.

I think you are missing the point.

I remember the Tianamen Square protests, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, too. Those events were well covered by the press in the United States, just as the current election crisis in the Ukraine has been front page news here for the past several weeks. However, the first two of those events were not sudden, and therefore, not as shocking, as the others mentioned, and the full extent of the Chernobyl disaster was not immediately known until later, so it, too, was not shocking.

Shocking events are those with a sudden, unexpected announcement, not those which evolve over a period of time.

I don't think the shocking nature of these events is due to the extent to which they are covered by the news media. However, there may be a tendency for events closer to home to be more shocking than those far away. I suspect that events such as the JFK assassination and the September 11 attacks were just as shocking to those hearing the news in Europe and elsewhere as they were to those in the States, whereas others, such as FDR's death and the Challenger disaster, were not.

How about the event of USA getting kicked out of Vietnam,

Wasn’t that a totally unexpected event?

No, not at the time that it actually occurred, over a period of time.

However, the fact that you bring it up makes me suspect that you do so not to question whether it belongs in this category, but rather, because you seem to exult in the failures of the United States (such as in your recent "joke" which has since been deleted). Every nation has its successes and failures, and lately, the United States has been experiencing more of the latter. However, the many successes of the United States prior to the 21st Century far outweigh our recent bungling, and any objective observer, even one who is not American, will readily recognize that.

 

[Casper91]

Freedom of speech is like a public toilet where everyone has something to "contribute". The ones with diarrhea of the mouth and make the biggest "stink" look down on the janitors who have to clean up, making the public toilet possible. They don't thank the janitors or realize how lucky we are to have them.

These "patrons" grow up with their mommy's wiping their butt, patting them on the head, sending them back to to play telling them they are brilliant and wonderful. They become adults that think what comes out of them is something more than it is.

I will now flush, wash my hands and walk out the door. :wink:
Next time I'll just hold my breath.

Well said!!

I'm not saying anything. Just posting an article written a couple of years ago by an author who has written a NY Times best seller on the subject and is considered to be an expert on the subject of Pearl Harbor.

You imply an opinion by the type of articles you post. Therefore you are saying something.

As much as I like to celebrate one fraud portrayed on the American public and then compare it to another, I will decline. December 7, 1941 is not a day to be celebrated at all. It was a very dismal event in American history that we should be ashamed of.

I beleive the current language I've been hearing for December 7th is "a day of rememberance".

And a "Celebrated" Holiday" is define as: 1.perform with appropriate rites. 2. honor with ceremonies.

 

[akira3d]

Somehow I missed this thread yesterday...I thought I'd add a couple of pictures I took while visiting Pearl Harbor a couple of months ago. This was my first visit to the Arizona Memorial, a visit I found to be an unexpectedly profound and haunting experience. In the full resolution version of the bottom picture, you can actually read the names on the wall.

I've always been fascinated by the events surrounding this day and WWII, perhaps moreso since I'm a natural born U.S. citizen of half-Jewish and half-Japanese descent. My dad and his family were interred during the war...in Canada. I don't think anyone "celebrates" this day. The point of such days is to remember the lives lost and recognize the conditions that led to such an event in the hopes that such events won't be repeated.

I was sick in bed yesterday, so I watched episodes 6-10 of Band of Brothers (which I had taped when it originally aired on HBO, but, for whatever reason, had not finished watching). Seemed an appropriate way to spend the day.

 

[Ponyboy]

I am clueless as to why we celebrate this as if it were a holiday...I wonder if the Germans celebrate the fire-bombing of Dresden.

Dude, you are way WAY WAY off again. Pearl Harbor is not celebrated. It, and lives of US soldiers it represents, is remembered as a tribute to lives lost and as a historic event that ushered in US involvement in WWII. It is thought upon solemnly and with respect. How can you not understand that? You're callousness is offensive. Seriously.

 

[Patdeisa]

Eric5273- that's an interesting article. However, it doesn't change the fact that many lives and ships were lost.

On November 27 and 28, 1941, Admiral Kimmel and General Short were ordered to remain in a defensive posture for “the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act.” The order came directly from President Roosevelt.

My interpretation is if the Commander-in-Chief said to stay in defensive posture, it would mean to be prepared for an attack. There were also a reports of unknown approaching aircraft that were mistaken for allied aircraft, but the reports were dismissed by superiors.

Regardless if there was any warning or not, the soldiers, sailors, and civilians at Pearl Harbor were caught off-guard, and it was a tragic and significant day for America's military, and our brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers deserve to be remembered for their service.

 

[Eric5273]

How about the event of USA getting kicked out of Vietnam,

I'm thinking that if a lot of people had died one one or two major attacks during the last few days we were there, then this would probably be put in the same context as 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. It seems as more of a memorial of the dead than a memorial of the event itself, which in all 3 of these cases was due to intentional actions made by disgraceful leaders of ours. What bothers me about these things is that the propoganda machine invents its own version of history in order to make these events appear somewhat patriotic as if we should be proud that they happened, rather than be ashamed of the terrible leadership which allowed these things to happen.

Regardless if there was any warning or not, the soldiers and sailors at Pearl Harbor were caught off-guard, and it was a tragic and significant day for America's military, and our brothers and fathers deserve to be remembered for their service.

Obviously I do not have a problem with making a memorial for the dead. But it seems that every December 7th there are tons of patriotic programs on television which make this event out to be glorious in nature, rather than telling the cold hard truth of why this event had to happen. Getting to the bottom of the truth does not disgrace the dead. Continuing to spread lies about this event does.

 

[LJSB]

I'm thinking that if a lot of people had died one one or two major attacks during the last few days we were there, then this would probably be put in the same context as 9/11 or Pearl Harbor. It seems as more of a memorial of the dead than a memorial of the event itself, which in all 3 of these cases was due to intentional actions made by disgraceful leaders of ours.

The logic is incredible.

 

[Eric C.]

Dresden was nothing compared to what the Nazis did to Antwerp or Rotterdam or London or Stalingrad or well do I need to go on... Dresden was a 2 day event!!! Eric5273 your anti american slant is as obvious as your lack of historical facts...I'm pretty sure you have NOT been to Dresden or seen any death camps...I suggest you go and see just what you seem so "ashamed" of...in the mean time I'd read up a little on the facts not just what you want them to be...
pbassjo, drinks are on me if you are in my neck of the woods...I couldn't agree more.

 

[1BADNSX]

Eric5273, I have read your worthless babble for too long now and held my tongue. I have missed it if you have had any competent posts to add to the NSX forum and that is hard to do when you post more than twice a day. Please go elsewhere and get your pleasures on some political forum, and spare us (the folks that try to contribute constructively to this forum) your very one-sided views. Yes, I am sure this is the response you wanted. Give me what I want and go away.

Bob