97+ NSX owners, how often do you change your oil?

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
However, I still think that when the auto manufacturer says to change your oil every six months, waiting a year before changing it is a very bad idea.

That's just it, not all the manufacturers say the same thing. My friend's Firebird manual says one year oil change intervals are okay under certain conditions. Honda's manual says differently. Are engine technologies so different that oil life varies that much between them?

I agree it's generally wise to follow the recommended service schedule. However IMO it's a waste of $$$ to change the oil every 3 months if the car is only driven 3000 miles/year, especially if the oil is synthetic (how quickly do contaminants build up in an engine that is not running?). You can burn a lot of money using the "better safe than sorry" mentality. I feel confident with my oil change frequency based on available information and personal experience. YMMV.

As I said, this topic is controversial

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[This message has been edited by PHOEN$X (edited 15 January 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

not all the manufacturers say the same thing. My friend's Firebird manual says one year oil change intervals are okay under certain conditions. Honda's manual says differently. Are engine technologies so different that oil life varies that much between them?

Honda engines are generally more reliable, and last longer, than Firebird engines. Whether that's because the technologies are different, or simply because the maintenance recommendations are different, I don't know; either way makes a good case for not following GM's advice on your NSX or treating your NSX like a Firebird.

Originally posted by PHOEN$X:
You can burn a lot of money using the "better safe than sorry" mentality.

$80 a year is not a lot of money. The $40 a year difference (between following Honda's advice versus leaving oil in your engine up to a year at a time) is even less.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[JaguarXJ6]

Originally posted by sjs:
What I’m not clear on is the degree to which the very high copper levels from the LS1 engine impact the TBN value. Without that problem would the TBN be even higher?

sjs, you have me wondering the same thing. I wrote off a message to Bry who's running the tests to ask the lab that question or respond if he already knows the answer.

Sunny

[This message has been edited by JaguarXJ6 (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by PHOEN$X:
You can burn a lot of money using the "better safe than sorry" mentality.

I should state that for me it has zero to do with the money. Not that I'm rich, but as nsxtasy said it doesn't add up to much. I just don't like the inconvenience of doing it and then disposing of the oil, and I won't have it done elsewhere. Tinkering with my cars is fun, changing the oil is drudgery.

 

[stevefromatl]

In my opinion, changing your oil is the most important thing you need to do to your car. To be safe I change mine every 2,000 miles with mobil 1 synthetic. I spare no expense when it comes to my nsx. I might not be able to eat for a few weeks, but my car will be perfect.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by stevefromatl:
changing your oil is the most important thing you need to do to your car.

I agree.

 

[Lud]

I take care of my cars, but I try to make sure I understand why I am doing something before I do it.

The reason manufacturers put time constraints on oil changes is not becaues the oil goes bad sitting in your car in the garage. It is because most cars that hit 6 months before they hit 3750 miles are being driven short distances on a regular basis.

Driving a short distance is very hard on your oil. 100 5-mile trips are much worse for your oil than 5 100-mile trips, which in turn is harder on your oil than a single 500 mile trip.

So, given this, the manufacturer recommends changing the oil at a set mileage OR time. They aren't going to write a 10-page essay covering all possible exceptions, they want it to be easy to understand and fit in a table.

If you have a pleasure car like the NSX and you drive it a couple times a month and usually take it on a long pleasure drive, there is no technical reason to change your oil early unless it just makes you feel good.

IF, however, you regularly take it for short drives, I would absolutely recommend changing the oil based on time.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Lud:
If you have a pleasure car like the NSX and you drive it a couple times a month and usually take it on a long pleasure drive, there is no technical reason to change your oil early unless it just makes you feel good.

IF, however, you regularly take it for short drives, I would absolutely recommend changing the oil based on time.

Lud,

I'm not sure I understand what you're recommending here in these two statements.

In your first statement, are you saying:

(a) if you're taking the car for long pleasure drives rather than on short trips to the convenience store, you can wait until you hit 7500 miles before changing the oil, even if that takes a couple of years to reach

or

(b) if you're taking the car for long pleasure drives rather than on short trips to the convenience store, even if you don't hit 7500 miles, you should still change the oil every six months, but there's no need to do it any sooner than that

With your second statement, are you saying

(1) if you're taking the car on short trips to the convenience store, you should change the oil at least every six months even if you don't hit 7500 miles within that period

or

(2) if you're taking the car on short trips to the convenience store, you fall into Acura's "severe driving conditions" category, and you should change your oil more frequently than every six months (even if you don't hit anywhere near 7500 miles)

Acura's recommendations are quite clearly for statements "(b)" and "(2)" but your statements could be interpreted either way, and a clarification would help.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by stevefromatl:
In my opinion, changing your oil is the most important thing you need to do to your car. To be safe I change mine every 2,000 miles with mobil 1 synthetic. I spare no expense when it comes to my nsx. I might not be able to eat for a few weeks, but my car will be perfect.

Like I said, why not every 1k, or every time you drive it? Hey, spare no expense. What makes 2k the magic number for you? Do as you like of course, but there is little doubt that you are accomplishing absolutely nothing. No offense, but personally I'd feel ridiculous.

I forgot to mention, keeping coolant in it is even more important, as in a good timing belt. Those can cost you a whole engine in short order rather than shaving a few miles off the far end which may never be reached.

The air filter is also very important and far more likely to cause problems. How often have you changed that? Have you eliminated the OEM unit for something that sounds or looks better?

BTW, how long to you let the car idle after starting it cold? If you really want to minimize engine wear then it should be quite awhile. If you really want to do it right you should have an electric pump or pressurized canister to prime the oil system before starting the engine. Have you done that?

I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but I really don’t understand the logic of 2k changes. You have long since passed the point of diminishing returns.


[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by sjs:
I should state that for me it has zero to do with the money. ... I just don't like the inconvenience of doing it and then disposing of the oil, and I won't have it done elsewhere. Tinkering with my cars is fun, changing the oil is drudgery.

For me, it isn't about money either but 1)impact to the environment, and 2)convenience. I usually have my oil changes done by Basch Acura, since I don't want to deal with it in the 110+ degree AZ heat. I don't trust any quick lube shop to do the job, as I've heard lots of horror stories (Mark even found problems with the pan gasket installation done by an Acura dealer). So, it's usually half a day and a 60 mile trip for me to get the oil change done.

 

[RyRy210]

I think there is some sort of confusion here. I drive less than 1,000 miles a month so I’m following the recommended time intervals in the owner’s manual. For my ’95 the intervals were 3 months for severe, and 6 months for normal. For my ’01, its now 6 months for severe, and 12 months for normal! However, I think that my ’95 and ’01 only differ in the time interval. I “think” the mileage interval is the same.

------------------
2001 NSX-T
- Bilstein Shocks
- '02 OEM Wheels

 

[Lud]

I'm saying (a) and (2). You should use Acura's definition of normal and severe driving conditions to determine your time/mileage maintenance requirements. I never recommended any specific time or mileage.

If you infrequently drive your NSX, but when you do drive it you typically take long drives, you are perfectly safe changing your oil by miles and ignoring time (within reason). This is because the oil does not appreciably deteriorate when it is just sitting in the car in the garage. Again, within reason. I am not suggesting anyone leave the same oil in there for years on end by any means, but 3 months is just overkill.

If you put few miles on the car, but most of those miles are from very short trips, you should change it based on time if you hit the time before the mileage. This is because short trips are very hard on the oil.

Since many people who hit time before mileage do so because they frequently take short trips, and that is more damaging to the oil, the manufacturers recommend changing based on a set miles/time schedule for everbody just to make it simpler. Thus the (b) recommendation from Acura and similar recommendations from other manufacturers.

Oil primarily deteriorates with use, and some types of use wear it out much faster than others. If you understand what causes it to deteriorate, you can adjust your oil change requirements to best suit your specific car's needs. For example, if you mostly track your car, I think you should change your oil more than every 3,750 miles. That is contrary to Honda's generalized recommendations as well, but I doubt many people would disagree.

If anyone is that concerned about oil and engine life, they should install a pre-oiler on their car. It will do a lot more good than even changing your oil every 10 days or 100 miles.

 

[JaguarXJ6]

sjs, the lab reported that the particulates had no effect on the total base number of the amount of acid/anti-wear additives present in the oil.

Here is a good resource on the subject.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

Sunny

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by Lud:
If you infrequently drive your NSX, but when you do drive it you typically take long drives, you are perfectly safe changing your oil by miles and ignoring time (within reason). This is because the oil does not appreciably deteriorate when it is just sitting in the car in the garage. Again, within reason. I am not suggesting anyone leave the same oil in there for years on end by any means, but 3 months is just overkill.

This fits my situation, and I agree with your philosophy. IMO it is a perfectly reasonable approach to oil changes.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by PHOEN$X:
IMO it is a perfectly reasonable approach to oil changes.

IMO, a year is too long for a car whose manufacturer's recommendation is every six months. And I would never buy a car that only had its oil changed half as often as the manufacturer recommended.

 

[stevefromatl]

Originally posted by sjs:
Like I said, why not every 1k, or every time you drive it? Hey, spare no expense. What makes 2k the magic number for you? Do as you like of course, but there is little doubt that you are accomplishing absolutely nothing. No offense, but personally I'd feel ridiculous.

I forgot to mention, keeping coolant in it is even more important, as in a good timing belt. Those can cost you a whole engine in short order rather than shaving a few miles off the far end which may never be reached.

The air filter is also very important and far more likely to cause problems. How often have you changed that? Have you eliminated the OEM unit for something that sounds or looks better?

BTW, how long to you let the car idle after starting it cold? If you really want to minimize engine wear then it should be quite awhile. If you really want to do it right you should have an electric pump or pressurized canister to prime the oil system before starting the engine. Have you done that?

I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but I really don’t understand the logic of 2k changes. You have long since passed the point of diminishing returns.


[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 16 January 2003).]

Let me remind you that I said "IN MY OPINION." That means you are entitled to your own opinion. I was just sharing my thoughts on the subject. I put 6000 miles on my car a year, so I change it about 3 times a year. The most common recommendation for all cars is 3,000 miles. I change my at 2,000 because I am very meticulous about my cars. Changing your coolant in your car or not warming it up is going to less damage over time as opposed to never changing your oil. Obviously if your coolant runs out that would be a problem, but I'm saying that if all you do is drive your car and put gas in it and do not do any other routine maintenance, not changing your oil will hurt it the most.

[This message has been edited by stevefromatl (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[Vytas]

I change my oil every 5K miles which is how much I drive the car per year. Use Mobil 1 10W-30.

Since I live about 80 miles away from my fellow NSXers and drive there every other week (if not more) to visit, I keep the interval based on mileage. I really don't drive on short trips around town so I don't see any reason to change it any sooner. It's almost all highway and track driving.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
And I would never buy a car that only had its oil changed half as often as the manufacturer recommended.

I'm not going to change the way I treat MY car because of what some future owner might or might not think. Some people are going to be more picky than others, but that's not going to prevent me from enjoying the car the way I want to.

Anyway, I think it's time to put this topic to bed, or at least move it to the Technical & DIY forum. I don't think we're going to change anyone's opinion here..

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[This message has been edited by PHOEN$X (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
IMO, a year is too long for a car whose manufacturer's recommendation is every six months. And I would never buy a car that only had its oil changed half as often as the manufacturer recommended.

My "normal maintenance" schedule clearly states that the manufacturer's recommended time interval is 12 months. It is only every 6 months for the "severe conditions" maintenance schedule.

I'd rather buy a car from someone who understood why they were doing various maintenance on the car, and who, using that knowledge, was able to vary their maintenance from the schedule when appropriate to meet their specific needs. For example, I certainly expect (and hope!) that you've been changing your oil more often than every 3,750 miles considering the amount you track your car.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by PHOEN$X:
For me, it isn't about money either but 1)impact to the environment, and 2)convenience. I usually have my oil changes done by Basch Acura, since I don't want to deal with it in the 110+ degree AZ heat. I don't trust any quick lube shop to do the job, as I've heard lots of horror stories (Mark even found problems with the pan gasket installation done by an Acura dealer). So, it's usually half a day and a 60 mile trip for me to get the oil change done.

I'm not sure why it takes half a day for a 60 mile trip, unless you're adding in time spent chatting with Jane and petting Dinah, but...

I would suggest you do what I do. I don't trust quick lube places either. However, any competent and qualified mechanic can do an oil change on an NSX. When all I need is an oil change, I go to an experienced mechanic a half mile from home. I used to bring the synthetic 10W30 until he started stocking it for me, and I still bring the OEM oil filter with me. It takes him 15-20 minutes and I'm gone from home less than 25 minutes. But neither his wife nor his dog is at the shop.

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
IMO, a year is too long for a car whose manufacturer's recommendation is every six months. And I would never buy a car that only had its oil changed half as often as the manufacturer recommended.

Originally posted by Lud:
My "normal maintenance" schedule clearly states that the manufacturer's recommended time interval is 12 months. It is only every 6 months for the "severe conditions" maintenance schedule.

That may be true for your '98, but it's not true for my '91.

Originally posted by Lud:
I'd rather buy a car from someone who understood why they were doing various maintenance on the car, and who, using that knowledge, was able to vary their maintenance from the schedule when appropriate to meet their specific needs.

I'd rather buy a car from someone who understands that the manufacturer makes recommendations based on their knowledge of the car's engineering and design, and uses those recommendations as a minimum interval. I would trust the manufacturer's knowledge more than some yahoo who's trying to save forty bucks a year or a couple hours of inconvenience and is trying to justify treating his car poorly by using "I know better than the manufacturer" as an excuse.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Lud:
So you don't change your oil more than every 3,750 miles?

I follow Acura's recommendations (3750 miles or 3 months) as a minimum frequency interval, usually based on time because I don't reach 3750 miles during the time interval.

How often do you change your oil, Lud?

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 January 2003).]

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
How often do you change your oil, Lud?

As often as needed to keep it in absolutely top operating condition. That varies considerably depending on how I am using the car.

Do you run multiple multi-day track events on the same oil?

Would you like to place a wager on the results of an oil analysis of old and new oil that has not been driven on? I'm sure we can get some from Steve J. who has all those cars in storage.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by stevefromatl:
...The most common recommendation for all cars is 3,000 miles...

That's a point with which I'd take issue. 3k is the most commonly used number by people who consider themselves to be meticulous about their cars, but I doubt that it is recommended by manufacturers for any cars under normal conditions and less than "most" even under more sever conditions. I also feel that the definition of "severe" conditions needs adjusting given current fuel and fuel delivery systems etc., but it has remained constant for decades.

Again, I mean no offense. These are just my opinions but I try to base them on something more than myths and fear of the unknown.

I’ll also say again that the choice of air filter is very much like oil changes and more likely to have serious consequences if inadequate.

 

[Lud]

sjs - The 3,000 mile recommendation is from the oil companies and quick-lube places. Go figure!

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Lud:
As often as needed to keep it in absolutely top operating condition. That varies considerably depending on how I am using the car.

Could you be more specific? Or are you trying to duck the question that you implied I was ducking?

Originally posted by Lud:
Do you run multiple multi-day track events on the same oil?

Yes. I don't believe you have to change oil before every track event. IMO that is overkill. I have sent my oil to be analyzed after multiple track events, and the results were just fine.

Originally posted by Lud:
The 3,000 mile recommendation is from the oil companies and quick-lube places.

The 3,000 miles / 3 months recommendation is the "conventional wisdom" that most mechanics recommend. However, as Consumer Reports and others have noted, that has been the conventional wisdom for many many years, and may be less relevant today with the advances in cars as well as oil.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 16 January 2003).]