What "people"?
This is silly. There's no problem with the 3.0 block being weak. The 3.2 block is not stronger, just a larger bore.
These "people" are talking out of their hats.
91-94 NSX or 81-87 Lotus Esprit
- Thread starter Lotus_Esprit
- Start date
What "people"?
This is silly. There's no problem with the 3.0 block being weak. The 3.2 block is not stronger, just a larger bore.
These "people" are talking out of their hats.
I always wanted a Lotus Esprit. I love the look of the car (which does not look like a Delorean, I think). Seeing it in the James Bond movie sealed the deal.
But I couldn't get away from the horror stories about the electrical system. I could afford to buy one, but I don't think I'll ever be able to afford to own one.
Finally, when I got a chance to drive one, the realization: I don't even fit in the car. With the seat all the way back, my knees were bumping against the steering wheel, and my head against the roof.
The NSX solves all of the problems of the Esprit while sacrificing none of the looks and power. If only James Bond had driven one...
But I couldn't get away from the horror stories about the electrical system. I could afford to buy one, but I don't think I'll ever be able to afford to own one.
Finally, when I got a chance to drive one, the realization: I don't even fit in the car. With the seat all the way back, my knees were bumping against the steering wheel, and my head against the roof.
The NSX solves all of the problems of the Esprit while sacrificing none of the looks and power. If only James Bond had driven one...
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- 14 September 2004
- Messages
- 185
I am only a fan of the older Esprits, anything esprits past 87 to me is trash.
this kind of old school esprits i like, same thing goes for the datsun 240Z which i also like very much. im a person who likes the older car looks.
this kind of old school esprits i like, same thing goes for the datsun 240Z which i also like very much. im a person who likes the older car looks.
I think you have misunderstood most of the very sound advice you have been given.
By and large, the members of this site are not brand whores. We love all types of cars and appreciate the attributes of other vehicles. I grew up admiring the early 80s Esprit Turbos.
Many of us have owned and continue to own a variety of high performance automobiles and have aspirations of additional vehicles (including additional NSXs).
You have received the opinions you asked for. The consensus in this thread is that the NSX is the superior choice. There are a number of objective reasons that have been offered as well as some subjective ones.
Frankly, I think most automotive enthusiasts would agree the NSX is superior to the 81-87 Esprit, so your surprise and objection to the reaction of an NSX forum to your post asking for their opinion is difficult to understand.
Make no mistake, the NSX inspires passion and stirs the emotion and soul of its driver. I have no doubt that Lotus afficionados are passionate and I don't begrudge them their passion or attempt to say who loves their car more. I do object to anyone who assumes that the NSX cannot Inspire (pun intended) because it is a Honda.
Yes, some have made jokes about Lotus reliability. That is a legitimate concern in buying an Esprit.
I frankly believe the notion of a budget Esprit is likely an illusion and the cheap ones will cost you far more in the end versus a well-kept higher-priced example.
You get what you pay for in all things, NSX or Esprit.
I wasn't joaking about LOTUS equals "Lots Of Problems Usually Serious." Ask me how I know...
I know. I am just trying to be diplomatic while still making the point. :biggrin:
The NSX... lol...
I don't remember a 240ZX! :tongue:
My Datsun 280Z is a great car, but it's OLD and things BREAK and wiring SUCKS. Old school usually means "needs help often". Classic looks. Classic problems.
I've never touched an NSX, but the Honda nameplate is enough for me because reliability of an auto is of the highest order on my mind and is the most important facet of car.
If a car cannot start and move, then it has failed its primary purpose.
LOTUS = lots of trouble usually serious *
* the elise v.2 with the toyota engine i have heard is reliable.
but nothing lotus that is older than that will be even remotely reliable.
I parked my 92 beside an Esprit of the era you're looking at. I have to say that my car made the Lotus look very dated, and the interior in the Lotus looked like it was coming apart. Maybe that's just the English build tolerances showing, but it didn't look right.
If I were interested in getting a Lotus for its racing pedigree, an Elise would be a great choice, and if you wait, I'm sure you could find one eventually.
As far as the handling of the two go (NSX vs Lotus), I'll guarantee that you will have to spend so much time behind the wheel of an NSX before you get anywhere near seeing the car understeer, that you'll think it's the greatest handling car of all time. Unless you do something stupid. The NSX will do more than most of its owners have the stomach for.
An Esprit just strikes me as an expensive choice. There's a guy on here; Prime name is Ody He's owned one or two Esprits and he's owned both a NA1 and NA2 NSX. PM him and ask him what he thinks.
If I were interested in getting a Lotus for its racing pedigree, an Elise would be a great choice, and if you wait, I'm sure you could find one eventually.
As far as the handling of the two go (NSX vs Lotus), I'll guarantee that you will have to spend so much time behind the wheel of an NSX before you get anywhere near seeing the car understeer, that you'll think it's the greatest handling car of all time. Unless you do something stupid. The NSX will do more than most of its owners have the stomach for.
An Esprit just strikes me as an expensive choice. There's a guy on here; Prime name is Ody He's owned one or two Esprits and he's owned both a NA1 and NA2 NSX. PM him and ask him what he thinks.
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- 10 November 2002
- Messages
- 1,124
I agree with this statement 115%. At the beginning and end of the day, I want a car that starts and runs and doesn't give me another problem to worry about. To me, a car has to be a real car, ie, operate reliably in the real world. Heat, cold, rain, even snow occasionally (I try to avoid driving in the snow but snow doesn't try to avoid me.) First and foremost, the NSX is a Honda and is very reliable.
I have owned my NSX for more than five years, and in that time it has been as far south as Miami and as far north as Niagara Falls. I took a trip last year that was 13 hours one way. (Ever see a Lotus with out of state plates, even once? You probably won't unless the owner lives near the state line, because the Lotus isn't dependable enough to be driven out of state.) During that trip everything about the car performed flawlessly - it always performs flawlessly, in climate-controlled comfort. As they say, the NSX is what you get when you crash a Lexus into a Ferrari. Right now, the NSX is my only car, as my daughter is now driving my other car. I have a 1994 with 126kplus miles and the 3.0 liter engine. I don't abuse the car, but I don't baby it, either. I drive fast, with occasional sprints to triple digits. (The other day I was driving around the Washington, DC beltway, thinking, if I get pulled over right now, that will be a ticket for 30mph over the speed limit. Maybe I should slow down.)
I have never heard or read the "weak block" comment about a 3.0, and I have been on NSXprime as long as I have owned the car and I read a lot. I don't know who you have been talking to - whoever made that comment has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
When you drive an NSX, you think about spending your money on upgrades and accessories. Not that you really need them, because you get a lot to start with, but there are some things that can be done to trick them out more. Although I have never owned or driven a Lotus, I had a little italian convertible once. I didn't think about spending my money on upgrades, I thought about spending money on keeping the POS of running. After that POS, I swore never again would I buy some junky unreliable funky foreign car.
The NSX isn't perfect - it is excellent, but not perfect. There are some things that occasionally break or give problems. Defective snap rings in early manual transmission cars are probably the most common big problem - to avoid this be sure any NSX you purchase has had the repair already done or is outside of snap ring range. Timing belts are expensive to replace - make sure any car you consider has had this done. I have never heard of one breaking but they should be replaced when due. Engine gaskets that leak oil are not uncommon, but most are easy to have replaced. There are also small problems which are common, like stereo components that need to be rebuilt, coil packs that need to be replaced (all six are relatively expensive, but you can install them yourself, so easy that even I can do it), leaking taillight gaskets (inexpensive to repair), the occasional bad speed sensor (inexpensive repair if you do it yourself), power antennas that need repair (easy to repair or replace). Most of these small problems pale in comparison with the British engineering you will face on the Lotus.
I personally don't care if anyone thinks the NSX is an "exotic", because to me exotic just means "unreliable". First and foremost, the NSX is a Honda and is reliable, and that is what matters most. If you buy a Lotus I am almost certain you will have a miserable experience with it, similar to my experience with that little italian convertible.
The NSX is relatively more expensive to purchase, but will be less expensive and a far greater pleasure to own over the short or long term. Older NSXs are as good as newer NSXs, just older. The older cars will require more frequent repairs, usually minor repairs, normally nothing too bad. For an older NSX I recommend finding a competent NSX-savvy independent mechanic (a little hard to find) and avoiding the dealer if at all possible. Insurance isn't any more expensive than any other car for me.
I'm not trying to beat you up about this, I am trying to steer you away from a mistake that can be avoided if you start thinking rationally instead of emotionally. I made a similar mistake with that little italian convertible - I thought that little two-seater convertible was "cool" so I suspended logic and bought it. What a nightmare - I could tell you some stories about that POS that would crack you up. I ended up abandoning that car, because I couldn't afford to own it. I could afford to buy it but couldn't afford to own it. I didn't have another car at that time, with no prospects of being able to get one any time soon, but having nothing was better than having that car.
Having said all that, your screenname IS Lotus_Esprit. If that car is what moves you, you should get one. You state that they are relatively inexpensive. (I think that this will be somewhat like receiving a "free" boat. There is nothing more expensive than a free boat.) If you DO decide to get an Esprit, be sure to drive a hard bargain. If my instincts are correct, most Esprit owners will be willing to make you a deal. Just be sure to have a real car to drive when the Lotus won't start.
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- 10 November 2002
- Messages
- 1,124
For a side-by-side comparison, have a look at these two. I chose the oldest NSX model and the newest Lotus Esprit model you cite, similar mileage, both cars in red to have the most similar cars to compare. The NSX is far and away the better car, in every respect. The Esprit doesn't even come close. The engine creeps me out just looking at it, and the interior looks like plywood with leather stapled to it. I could come up with a list of more than 100 things that are better on the NSX.
1987 Lotus Esprit
1991 Acura NSX*
Again, I'm not trying to beat you up about this, I want you to avoid a serious mistake. You should be able to find a perfectly satisfactory NSX 3.0 for less than $30,000 if you shop around.
*I like the answer to the first question (at the bottom) that was asked about the NSX. The seller gave an honest response, nothing wrong with that.
1987 Lotus Esprit
1991 Acura NSX*
Again, I'm not trying to beat you up about this, I want you to avoid a serious mistake. You should be able to find a perfectly satisfactory NSX 3.0 for less than $30,000 if you shop around.
*I like the answer to the first question (at the bottom) that was asked about the NSX. The seller gave an honest response, nothing wrong with that.
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I found the following on the site www.espritfactfile.com, one of several Esprit fan sites. It is a bit long but very telling. I also should say I have always loved the looks of the Esprit. Seeing it in a James Bond movie was icing on the cake. I love the wedge shaped body. I also think the Elise and Exage are ugly as sin. They look like kit cars.
From the site (these are not my words)
Can I Really Afford an Esprit
I don't want to discourage you, but most people think they can afford a Lotus when they really can't. A Lotus usually requires one of two (usually both) very important expenditures from its owner: 1) deep pockets to take it to the dealer to feed it its periodic diet of extremely expensive parts and service; 2) patience and dedication (along with a certain degree of mechanical skill) to do the repairs and/or maintenance yourself. Both of these demand that you have a certain level of passion for the marque. Most people simply wouldn't put up with the hassle. There-in lies the problem. It's a vicious circle that's perpetuated by people who lack the Lotus passion (or as I call it - disease).
So you wonder why you see some of these cars for sale for so cheap? Here's part of the reason that happens:
1) Many people buy the car because they like how it looks and are surprised at how "affordable" they are compared to other exotics. "Wow! a 1987 Lotus Esprit for only $15,000US!"
2) They show it off to their friends, take it on a few dates, and generally have a good time with it for a while.
3) Disappointment sets in when they realize that:
a) they can't always rely on the car as their only vehicle because it is impractical for carrying anything but the most minimal amount of groceries.
b) British reliability (electrical gremlins, engine fires, roof leaks, etc.) means the car may be out of commission for a while or permanently.
c) Parts, unlike in other British sportscars, are in limited supply and cost an exorbitant amount of cash.
d) Accessibility to various engine components involves dismantling of 20 unrelated components that just happen to be in the way.
e) The nearest dealer is over 100 miles away.
f) People at the parts counter ask stupid questions like "Lotus? Who makes that?"
4) When something breaks, they don't have the money, time or passion to fix the car themselves or get it fixed by the proper repair facility.
5) They let the car sit while they save up for parts or tend to "more important" things.
6) They buy another car to get them to and from work and the supermarket.
7) Friends, spouses, fiancées and others make fun about how the Lotus never runs or how often things appear to go wrong.
8) One day they decide to make a cheap "makeshift" repairs just to get the car going again instead of repairing it properly. This is the stage where they start evolving into the PO (previous owner) or DPO (dreaded previous owner) that we like to use as the scapegoat on the Lotus List for much of what ails our cars.
9) The cheap repair causes something else, seemingly unrelated, to break or makes the car more unreliable. Or, heck, maybe something else breaks on its own, totally unprovoked. Perhaps simply by virtue that it has the words "Pektron Inverter" or "Lucas" on the side of the part.
10) After much disappointment that the car isn't as reliable or takes much more maintenance than a Camry, they sell the car at a loss.
11) This major depreciation affects many things. People get the perceptions the cars are junk, because the only examples they are commonly exposed to have been ill-maintained. This lowers the market value. Toss in the SUV market frenzy to the mix and prices plummet further.
12) You buy the car and start wondering why the heck there's a wiring harness held together with twisty-ties that say "Hefty" on them and the tailpipe is suspended by a coat hanger.
If you don't believe any of this is true, ask anyone on the Lotus List the story about the "Curse of Chuque"!
Most of the uninitiated public thinks that all Esprits must be over $100,000US. After all, they are exotic supercars just like Ferraris and Lamborghinis and everybody knows how expensive those are. Frankly, I kind of like the fact that people think this. Not because of any kind of bragging rights or status thing, but because it keeps a great number of people without the Lotus passion from buying the cars because they assume they're too expensive. My take is that those who really do have the passion will have enough motivation to do a little research and discover the truth: a Lotus may be inexpensive, but it ain't cheap! But, because they are infected with the Lotus virus, it all seems worthwhile...
This is why the greatest Lotus slogan is:
"Lotus, For the few who know the difference..."
Finally, if you think your 1988 Mustang's parts are expensive, you're not ready for the shock of Esprit parts. For example:
Wheel lug bolts $17 each
Suspension bushings $19 to $50 each
Spark plugs $27 each
Small window decals $80 each
Throttle Position Sensor $150
Clutch Disc $200
Pressure plate $200
Set of brake pads (1 axle) $225
Steering wheel $700
Alloy wheels $750 each
Non-assisted steering rack $800
Flywheel $1,500
ECM $2,000
Esprit (Renault) gearbox $16,000
910 (4-cyl turbo) Engine $42,000
I'm sure there are many more expensive, ridiculously priced parts as well. These are the only ones I can recall off the top of my head. Parts prices add up quickly because these parts are more fragile than on other cars. These parts are designed for high performance, not reliability.
From the site (these are not my words)
Can I Really Afford an Esprit
I don't want to discourage you, but most people think they can afford a Lotus when they really can't. A Lotus usually requires one of two (usually both) very important expenditures from its owner: 1) deep pockets to take it to the dealer to feed it its periodic diet of extremely expensive parts and service; 2) patience and dedication (along with a certain degree of mechanical skill) to do the repairs and/or maintenance yourself. Both of these demand that you have a certain level of passion for the marque. Most people simply wouldn't put up with the hassle. There-in lies the problem. It's a vicious circle that's perpetuated by people who lack the Lotus passion (or as I call it - disease).
So you wonder why you see some of these cars for sale for so cheap? Here's part of the reason that happens:
1) Many people buy the car because they like how it looks and are surprised at how "affordable" they are compared to other exotics. "Wow! a 1987 Lotus Esprit for only $15,000US!"
2) They show it off to their friends, take it on a few dates, and generally have a good time with it for a while.
3) Disappointment sets in when they realize that:
a) they can't always rely on the car as their only vehicle because it is impractical for carrying anything but the most minimal amount of groceries.
b) British reliability (electrical gremlins, engine fires, roof leaks, etc.) means the car may be out of commission for a while or permanently.
c) Parts, unlike in other British sportscars, are in limited supply and cost an exorbitant amount of cash.
d) Accessibility to various engine components involves dismantling of 20 unrelated components that just happen to be in the way.
e) The nearest dealer is over 100 miles away.
f) People at the parts counter ask stupid questions like "Lotus? Who makes that?"
4) When something breaks, they don't have the money, time or passion to fix the car themselves or get it fixed by the proper repair facility.
5) They let the car sit while they save up for parts or tend to "more important" things.
6) They buy another car to get them to and from work and the supermarket.
7) Friends, spouses, fiancées and others make fun about how the Lotus never runs or how often things appear to go wrong.
8) One day they decide to make a cheap "makeshift" repairs just to get the car going again instead of repairing it properly. This is the stage where they start evolving into the PO (previous owner) or DPO (dreaded previous owner) that we like to use as the scapegoat on the Lotus List for much of what ails our cars.
9) The cheap repair causes something else, seemingly unrelated, to break or makes the car more unreliable. Or, heck, maybe something else breaks on its own, totally unprovoked. Perhaps simply by virtue that it has the words "Pektron Inverter" or "Lucas" on the side of the part.
10) After much disappointment that the car isn't as reliable or takes much more maintenance than a Camry, they sell the car at a loss.
11) This major depreciation affects many things. People get the perceptions the cars are junk, because the only examples they are commonly exposed to have been ill-maintained. This lowers the market value. Toss in the SUV market frenzy to the mix and prices plummet further.
12) You buy the car and start wondering why the heck there's a wiring harness held together with twisty-ties that say "Hefty" on them and the tailpipe is suspended by a coat hanger.
If you don't believe any of this is true, ask anyone on the Lotus List the story about the "Curse of Chuque"!
Most of the uninitiated public thinks that all Esprits must be over $100,000US. After all, they are exotic supercars just like Ferraris and Lamborghinis and everybody knows how expensive those are. Frankly, I kind of like the fact that people think this. Not because of any kind of bragging rights or status thing, but because it keeps a great number of people without the Lotus passion from buying the cars because they assume they're too expensive. My take is that those who really do have the passion will have enough motivation to do a little research and discover the truth: a Lotus may be inexpensive, but it ain't cheap! But, because they are infected with the Lotus virus, it all seems worthwhile...
This is why the greatest Lotus slogan is:
"Lotus, For the few who know the difference..."
Finally, if you think your 1988 Mustang's parts are expensive, you're not ready for the shock of Esprit parts. For example:
Wheel lug bolts $17 each
Suspension bushings $19 to $50 each
Spark plugs $27 each
Small window decals $80 each
Throttle Position Sensor $150
Clutch Disc $200
Pressure plate $200
Set of brake pads (1 axle) $225
Steering wheel $700
Alloy wheels $750 each
Non-assisted steering rack $800
Flywheel $1,500
ECM $2,000
Esprit (Renault) gearbox $16,000
910 (4-cyl turbo) Engine $42,000
I'm sure there are many more expensive, ridiculously priced parts as well. These are the only ones I can recall off the top of my head. Parts prices add up quickly because these parts are more fragile than on other cars. These parts are designed for high performance, not reliability.
Uhhhm,nobody in thier right mind buys a version 2 esprit as regular transportation lol.You buy it as a gift to yourself because you like it.That is what car collecting is all about emotion-passion, reliable trouble free transportation is not the key factor.The nsx will do both if your heart is in it.Most people who buy old exotics have many other more utilitarian vehicles:wink: BTW the nsx is heavier than that old esprit which I think was around 2700 lbs.A stock nsx will easily outhandle that esprit on skidpad and autox,but that is not why you buy one.
if you do choose an early turbo model better be very handy at head gasket changes- one every 15-25k miles guaranteed.
Wow, the louvers really date that car, and totally kill the look. I'm still an Esprit fan, but looking at that there's no doubt it's from the 80s.
Some of these parts are actually cheap like the wheel nuts Porsche charges $70 bucks for 4.lol NSX wipers are $150 each without rubber, NSX engine $28,000 997 Porsche $32000 Lotus 42000 terrible.lol V8 use chevy head, Lambo engines north of 70k
http://www.automotion.com/productcat...cid=22&sid=317
http://www.paragon-products.com/prod....020.112.1.htm
- Joined
- 26 September 2006
- Messages
- 415
why all the Lotus hating? Owned a 99 V8TT Sport 350 (similar to the NSXR but for Lotus) for years and it was reliable as hell. The renault tranny was junk and gummy and was replaced with a race speced syncro 6 speed for ~$4000. The car was slightly modded upping the boost via a race ECU. Never had any issues besides the hard drop in value. The handling was sick. But as far as the other pre S4S Lotus' i cant say much on them. The car IMO outperformed the NSX in everything except practicality and comfort. Im not hating on the NSX since i love mine but the Lotus we had was by no means junk, it was rather impressive. To each their own. As for the original poster i would steer clear from the older Lotus. A 98 V8TT can be had for in the mid $30k.
I've heard nothing but horror stories about the lotus esprit as far as quality and reliability, and this was coming from a dealer in town who has a few esprits for sale on the lot, and all his mechanics.
1998 Lotus TTV8 in my opinion is a shower stall with cutting edge 1975 technology and hardware store fasteners.
I like how it looks until you get under it. It is more like a kit car.
I would like to own one if I had a large collection of cars but it is not in the class of a modern car, that is, any car built after 1979 with modern building materials or technology.
It doesn't have the technology or quality of a 1985 Corvette.
It is a rare, hot looking car.
I like how it looks until you get under it. It is more like a kit car.
I would like to own one if I had a large collection of cars but it is not in the class of a modern car, that is, any car built after 1979 with modern building materials or technology.
It doesn't have the technology or quality of a 1985 Corvette.
It is a rare, hot looking car.
Oh one more thing,kinda echos Joe above.God forbid you are in a significant crash/shunt in your nsx it will bend ,absorb,deflect lots of energy in an attempt to protect you,we have seen some nasty wrecks and driver walks.In that old papermache lotus your sqishy body acts as the airbag to protect the car!
- Joined
- 26 September 2006
- Messages
- 415
Oh one more thing,kinda echos Joe above.God forbid you are in a significant crash/shunt in your nsx it will bend ,absorb,deflect lots of energy in an attempt to protect you,we have seen some nasty wrecks and driver walks.In that old papermache lotus your sqishy body acts as the airbag to protect the car!
that is true indeed. Not a car you want to be in an accident with. Joe given your size i severely doubt you will fit in one. :biggrin: Rather suited for more compact drivers (nothing against you Joe). This something you should be aware of. the V8TT esprits given in a frontal accident will cost anyware from 9-12K for the front end replacement parts alone and thats just the shell (fender, hood etc..)
