60K service, to remove engine or not to? which one is more beneficial?

[khoazie05]

Dear Prime members,


Here shortly, I will be doing my 60k miles service. I will be looking at replacing the following:

-Timing belt + other components belts
-Water pump
-All the gaskets (vc, oil pan, wp, etc)
-Majority of the seals that could possibly deal with any leakages.
-Changing all the fluids
-Anything else that will need to be.
Here is the list.


So my question now is, should I remove the motor to perform the service? Or should I just leave it in there and perform the service?

Based on the knowledge, and expertise of my mechanic, I trust him every bit to let him perform this job on my car. I will also be there to assist him with this service so I can get to know the car better. With that being said, due to the nature of things and tight space, do you guys recommend that I remove the motor?

After reading multiple posts about engine removal, I can see that the task can be performed fairly easy and fast. With that being said, that is the main reason why I think that removing the motor would be best to avoid complication with working in a tight space. We would also get full visual of my motor to see if there anything else needed to be replace during this maintenance.

Removing motor: 3 hours
Services : 3 hours
Installing motor : 3 hours
Miscellaneous : 2 hours a total of 10 hours


Versus doing the service with the engine in, fighting the tight space, could take up to 10 or so hours.

A better question would be, which plan is better and more beneficial.
Please share your input,
Thank you

 

[B2FiNiTY]

If you remove the engine, you might as well do more preventative work such as coolant hoses, LMAs, etc.

 

[warrenw]

That is all "in car" maintanence. The car is designed for that maintenance to be done in car.

Service Manual explains all of that "in car"

You need to add valve clearance check and adjustment to the list.

I did my own last spring.

 

[khoazie05]

I think I'm a little obnoxious for wanting to remove my motor for this service. To my knowledge this process take about the same amount of time with the engine being in or out. Why not just remove it to ensure that the job will be better, and i can get a full inspection of the motor, also not have to mingle I'm tight space.


I might be wrong.

 

[shawn110975]

since I can drop the motor in 1 hour I would remove it.... to do it in the car is how the dealership would do it. but laying bending cutting my hands up tring to get some of the hoses suck azzz.

and doing the timing with mirrors to see the timing marks suck.

while engine is out take trans off and install new clutch since its out do everything

but everything you listed can be done in the car.

- - - Updated - - -

but personally I would drop motor and you can clean the motor any oils or dirt, check bolts if they are rusting, tighen covers etc. clean ground wires nice and shiney,

with motor out you can do so much and a better job

most people cant drop a motor

 

[JD Cross]

Except for the TB/WP I've done all the maintenance on my 91 for 24 years with the motor in the car.
I bought the OEM pad that lays on the trunk and protects the body while doing the work.
My dealership has done the TB/WP with the motor in the car.

Always been impressed that the Honda engineers provided enough access to do all the work needed.
Yes it's tight in some areas but the shop manual provides great instructions that even I could follow.
An experienced NSX tech knows the techniques/tools to get at the various jobs.

Don't know why anyone would drop the motor unless it's for a major rebuild.

 

[khoazie05]

Of course everything i mention and wanting to do can be done with the engine being inside the car.
However, with the amount of time that i will me spending mingling with tight space and to finish the job, will be the same as if i were to remove the motor.
I feel like i already answered my own question...
I will reconsult again with the mechanic, and i will try to have a full DIY on the whole process.

 

[DDozier]

Of course everything i mention and wanting to do can be done with the engine being inside the car.
However, with the amount of time that i will me spending mingling with tight space and to finish the job, will be the same as if i were to remove the motor.
I feel like i already answered my own question...
I will reconsult again with the mechanic, and i will try to have a full DIY on the whole process.

If you have to do a timing belt and water pump I always drop the motor, it is so much easier and so much less likely to have any alignment issues, yes it can be done in the car but your back will not work the next day, it is 3-4 hours of laying over the back of the car with your back bent at the waste to 90*. It may seem scary at first but the entire drive train was installed as a package and is designed to be removed as a package. Your first time would take 3 hours to remove one but each time you do it it just gets faster and faster. I can do it in far less time than 3 hours but it does require a lift to raise the body off the drivetrain package. The car is really easy to work on and the process is fairly straight forward. I have a cart and a cradle that I made for the entire package to sit on and then lift the car off. Re-installation of the package is also simple and there are even places for alignment pins in the cradle and chassis to make sure everything goes right back into place and no wheel alignment is needed after the package is back in place.

Cleaning and other maintenance items are a breeze and almost anything else you want to do to either the engine or trans is just so much easier and safer out of the car. If you were doing one or two of the items on your list I would say leave it in but as soon as you decide to do the timing belt its a no-brainer to drop the entire package.

FYI - if the oil pan is not already leaking, your not installing headers, and you are not going to baffle the oil pan leave that project until it starts to leak. The oil pan gasket is a project that needs to be done in the car not with the engine out. You remove the front lower cradle brace, then front exhaust manifold, then oil pan. It is far easier to do this part in the car, again if it is not leaking I would leave it alone as there is no labor savings to do this part of the project together with the other items you are doing. If you decide to do headers or the oil pan baffle then you do the gasket as long as it is not leaking.

Dave

 

[khoazie05]

If you have to do a timing belt and water pump I always drop the motor, it is so much easier and so much less likely to have any alignment issues, yes it can be done in the car but your back will not work the next day, it is 3-4 hours of laying over the back of the car with your back bent at the waste to 90*. It may seem scary at first but the entire drive train was installed as a package and is designed to be removed as a package. Your first time would take 3 hours to remove one but each time you do it it just gets faster and faster. I can do it in far less time than 3 hours but it does require a lift to raise the body off the drivetrain package. The car is really easy to work on and the process is fairly straight forward. I have a cart and a cradle that I made for the entire package to sit on and then lift the car off. Re-installation of the package is also simple and there are even places for alignment pins in the cradle and chassis to make sure everything goes right back into place and no wheel alignment is needed after the package is back in place.

Cleaning and other maintenance items are a breeze and almost anything else you want to do to either the engine or trans is just so much easier and safer out of the car. If you were doing one or two of the items on your list I would say leave it in but as soon as you decide to do the timing belt its a no-brainer to drop the entire package.

FYI - if the oil pan is not already leaking, your not installing headers, and you are not going to baffle the oil pan leave that project until it starts to leak. The oil pan gasket is a project that needs to be done in the car not with the engine out. You remove the front lower cradle brace, then front exhaust manifold, then oil pan. It is far easier to do this part in the car, again if it is not leaking I would leave it alone as there is no labor savings to do this part of the project together with the other items you are doing. If you decide to do headers or the oil pan baffle then you do the gasket as long as it is not leaking.

Dave

Dave,

Thank you for your input, you're keeping it real!
Very much appreciated.

 

[davidf]

If you go to the trouble of dropping the motor, do a little cleaning as well. Check this before and after cleaning job out.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-as-%93Zanardi-Prototype%94-in-the-wiki/page4

 

[Larry Bastanza]

I really think this is a personal choice, both ways work well. I have done well over 100 timing belts without removing the motor. The other thing is you cannot do the oil pan gasket( as Dave mentions) unless you put the motor on an engine stand(which means separating the trans, total waste of work IMO) or do that before or after removal.

BTW, What year is the car? I ask because there are some unique things if it is a 2000+ year, since the emissions air pump is included.

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB

 

[shawn110975]

the fastest I have ever dropped the NSX motor is 1hour 14 minutes I was timed by the owner of Extreme Motorcars ( Bruce )

as I age I see that my time is growing pre drop, not sure if its the fact " who am I tring to impress LOL ) myself or others. neither matter to me anymore LOL

 

[NSX2398]

Maybe a stupid question .. but I thought the TB/WP was part of the 90k service not at 60K. Unless, of course, you're doing it based on time (7 or 9 years depending on who you believe) and it just happens to be at 60k.

 

[tof]

If a mechanic is doing the work he will probably charge book rates for labor. Book on dropping the engine is 10 hours, even though a few experienced Primers can do it in less than two. So expect between 700 and 1400 just to drop the engine (depending on the labor rate). TB/WP hours would drop if the engine is out and IF the mechanic doesn't just stick to book hours for that work. Regardless, the only thing I would ask a mechanic to drop the engine for would be the lost motion assemblies.

If you are doing it yourself then it could make sense to drop the engine, because it isn't that complex a job...just time consuming...and it makes all the other work much easier obviously.

 

[nsxspdfreak]

Is there a reason you are replacing the spool valves? They're basically a no wear item and the only thing that could be replaced is the oring-gasket/filter. What's missing from your list is upgrading the existing lost motion assemblies LMA's. 91 to 99 used a an oil filled LMA that acted like a shock absorber for the vtec rocker when it's not engaged, which overtime stick causing excessive valve train noise that sounds like out of adjusted valves. If you intend on pulling the engine I would recommend removing the cams and replacing the LMA's with SOS LMA's. Removing the engine by someone who's never done it before will take 3-4 hours. Re-installation will take longer since you'll have to bleed the brakes and for the fact that it's just easier and quicker to take things apart. The advantage is that it's much easier to work on and you can do a thorough inspection. The disadvantage is that you need a lift or to be able to jack the car up high enough to drop the engine down on a hydraulic table Harbor Freight Hydraulic Table
If you pull the motor you'll also need to replace the AC Line Seals.
Also, at a minimum replace your coolant hoses connecting to the motor, and use either Honda OEM Coolant or Xerex Asian Coolant.
Take lots of photos before you pull the motor and as you're as you're pulling it. It will cut down on the "Where the hell does that go" when you reassembling it.

 

[anesthesia]

Seems like your already leaning toward dropping the motor, I would go ahead and do that route, plus you have an extra hands to help you, I think it would be a great learning experience, like Shawn mention you can visually see your motor and see anything else needs attention.