30K service on low-mile older car

[nsx1164]

Hi -- I was taking my 93 NSX for 30K mile service, and wanted to ask a few questions:
- any ballpark estimates on the cost ?
- besides the "by mileage" items, any other items I should check on, due to the cars age ? I am (for now) choosing to defer the t-belt/water pump to when I can get the car back to Acura Brookfield
- car has minor aftermarket modifications

Appreciate any suggestions.
TIA -- Manuel

 

[cojones]

Originally posted by nsx1164:
any ballpark estimates on the cost ?

The FAQ section on this has 30K service quotes ranging from the 600s to as much as 1200.

Bring your own oil

 

[Bryan]

It cost me $814 two months ago to get the 30K service on my '96 at Performance Acura in Chapel Hill, NC. They honored the 10% off discount I received in the mail from the other local Acura dealer.

I was mildly annoyed to find out when I picked up the car that the 30K service did not include an alignment even though the service book recommends one at 30K. My fault for not asking, but I'm surprised they didn't suggest one, especially since I had tires mounted at the same time.

I was more annoyed to find out they put Quaker State 10W30 in the gearbox. When I asked about Honda MTL, they said Honda doesn't make MTL and they recommend normal engine oil

Yet another less than enouraging experience with dealer service. Leith Acura in Cary may be a bit better (based on a few posts here), but I can't call them without getting put on hold for five minutes or hung up on.

 

[nsx1164]

Originally posted by Bryan:
It cost me $814 two months ago to get the 30K service on my '96 at Performance Acura in Chapel Hill, NC. They honored the 10% off discount I received in the mail from the other local Acura dealer.

I was quoted around $900 at Rick Case Acura in Ft Lauderdale, less a "rep-enhanced" NSXCA discount of 10% on parts and service (normally parts only). Ask for Paul Newman, Assistant Service Manager (and S2K owner) at 954-377-7664.

I'll check on the 30K alignment... I just had it aligned recently. Besides, given the mods (springs/bodykit), most shops equipment cannot align my car. This MAY reduce the cost.

BTW, this dealer has a Performance Section, and they do dealer-installed stuff on new cars:
- full factory bodykit for RSX Type S
- Comptech mods for RSX
- dealer-modded 3.5L 350 hp upgrade to TL/CL Type S (my loaner is a TL Type S -- nice)

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Bryan,

What you should really be annoyed about is the dealer is giving you BS. I have 3 quarts of "Honda MTL" sitting on the shelf at home. I purchased it very recently. It is very reasonably priced, a few bucks a quart, and I consider it the best stuff for these transmissions. Frankly it's either that or RedLine MTL. Many of us have had good experiences with both.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Bryan]

Yes, that is what ticks me off... the service guy seemed very nice and fairly knowledgeable, but then he feeds me a line like that. It's either ignorance or dishonesty and neither is acceptable. The gearbox feels fine... I'm debating whether to change the fluid again when I do the next oil change.

 

[nsx4fun]

Personally, I would change the oil in the tranny now. And I would never let my car drive near a can of Quaker state or Pennzoil. Pennsylvania crude oil has more parrafin than any other crude oil which reanslates into more sludge build up in your engine. Pick a good synthetic and replace it now. I have Redline MTL in mine.

 

[nsx1164]

Latest estimate is closer to $4000.
Additional service items include (parts & labor):
- cam plugs are leaking (normally a 60-70K item, they suspect AGE may be cause): $1230
- leaking oil hits t-belt assembly; they think this weakens the belt, and recommend replacement (my car is due on AGE but not mileage)... : $904
- brake master cyliner is leaking; replace: $470
- ABS hoses are starting to crack: $216
- other owner-added stuff (mount exhaust, flush brake and clutch): 318

Are the above items a) reasonably plausible; b) fairly priced ??

Anyone have info on the new NSX Parts Guy ??

Thanks -- Manuel

 

[nsx1164]

Will probably defer some of the other items to later (brake R&R)...

If doing cam plugs, t-belt/drive/w-pump (nominally 90K miles or 72 months), the service techs recommend doing the tdc (crank) sensor as well.

They tell me this procedure if done stand-alone takes approx 8 hours of labor, and it made sense to bundle it in (similar to doing short gears, R&P, etc in one fell swoop when replacing a clutch).

The tech tells me these crank sensors are used to detect TDC, and they've been known to overheat and melt over time. Causing check engine lights and possibly ??? (unknown damage).

Does anyone have any info on this procedure (TDC crank sensor) ?? I can't find it in my owners manual

TIA

[This message has been edited by nsx1164 (edited 11 January 2002).]

 

[sjs]

Man, they want to make you bleed!

First, are they saying that the leaky cam plugs are getting oil on the timing belt? Pretty tricky pissing from the opposite end of the engine! That said, doing the cam belt at this time is not a bad idea, and if the plugs are leaking (common, but not particularly important) it makes sense to do that at the same time. However, $1200 on top of the belt change is high. Once you've got the belt off it's at most 2-3 hours to pull and replace the seals even if they re-set the valves. Lots of bolts to torque and 24 valves to set, but speedy work with the right tools.

The quote on the belt job actually sounds low since it is customary to replace the water pump and therefore the lower front cover. Perhaps with only 30K miles that could be skipped, but on this I'd error on the side of caution. Seals on water pumps age even when not in use, especially if the water/antifreeze ratio has been much above or below 50/50. Are they suggesting coolant any hoses?

I’d risk pissing one of them off (not that it should if they’re honest) and ask them to show you the detailed breakdown of the “book” hours.

The crank sensor thing sounds fishy too. I would not be surprised to hear that a few have failed, but I hardly think it's a common preventative maintenance thing. Sounds more like fear tactics to me. I'm tying to remember where the sensors even are. There is one on the front bank up on the cam gear, and I think the one they're talking about is straight down from that on the right side of the crank, but I'll need to check the drawings.

 

[nsx1164]

I had a long chat with John V (Service Manager at Brookfield) and he confirmed that these are legitimately plausible.
- the cam plugs are known to go bad, mainly the seals
- the t-belt/etc is independent... my car is overdue based on time (1993 MY), but way under based on mileage (27K)
- IF you have the engine opened up, it makes sense to inspect/replace the crank sensor... its NOT in the owners manual, and most techs don't even think to check it -- he thought it was a sign of pretty good thoroughness that my tech suggested we check it (most don't)

Evidently they've seen failures on all the above, particularly on higher-mile cars.

So I'll get the breakdowns, plus all the old parts they removed.

[This message has been edited by nsx1164 (edited 12 January 2002).]

 

[sjs]

As I said, recommending the cam plugs and belt sound reasonable, it was just that any suggestion that the leak contributed to the need for a belt is silly if that's what they said. I still think the price for the cam plugs is extremely high since the belt will be done at the same time.

As for the sensor, I still wonder about that one, but it's entirely possible that they see failures from time to time. How much did they quote for the part, and for the labor? We have quite a few owners of older cars represented here. Anyone hear of this?

These are the kinds of red flags, large and small, that send me packing. If it turns out they are blatant attempts to increase revenue without regard to your best interest, then they should be avoided. Like cockroaches, what you can see is just the tip of the iceberg.

To correct something in a previous post, the sensors are only the top one I described. Actually, it's one unit with two sensors (crank position and cam timing) using a total of four pickups. Just sounds odd having the crank position running off a cam gear in a

 

[DanO]

If you have the time or opportunity, I'd wait and take it to John V for the t-belt and get his recommendation on the other issues. Is your car really leaking oil from the cam plugs? Wipe your finger around them, there's 4 of them, they’re the black ~1.5” diameter circles on the heads between the valve cover and the top of the head—the plugs have a “U” printed on them—plugs are located on driver’s side of the heads. If they’re not leaking then I wouldn’t open up that can of worms—same goes with the cam sensor. Unnecessarily messing around with the valve train like that is bound to cause trouble if not done by a mechanic who is both experienced and is willing to take the time and do it right—otherwise your engine is toast. Changing the t-belt is a little tricky too and unless they’ve done a few NSXes before, I’d be a little concerned that they’d do it properly. They may be able to change the cam sensor without taking off the cams (just by removing the cam pulleys and back t-belt cover) so it might be a good thing, but mine looked fine when I had mine off last year (~30k). Great, now I’ve just jinxed my sensor!

Good luck and let us know how it turns out,
DanO

 

[nsx1164]

Originally posted by nsx1164:

- IF you have the engine opened up, it makes sense to inspect/replace the crank sensor... its NOT in the owners manual, and most techs don't even think to check it -- he thought it was a sign of pretty good thoroughness that my tech suggested we check it (most don't)

I checked the TDC crank sensor they removed from my car... the black gel-like substance WAS starting to melt in one section. So its good that we decided to replace it.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by nsx1164:

I checked the TDC crank sensor they removed from my car... the black gel-like substance WAS starting to melt in one section. So its good that we decided to replace it.

Well, I'm still not convinced. They are totally solid state and my memory of the stuff that encases them is a sloppily poured casting of sorts. Given your low miles, unless you've had some severe overheating episodes I suspect they nicked you. This is just the type of thing some shops learn they can point to and say "see, you can tell it's damaged...".

I could be totally off base, but all my lights and sirens are going off with this one. If you can send me some good pics of it, or even send me the unit, I'd be very interested in following up to see what the real facts are. A friend of mine is close to someone well up at American Honda and perhaps he can dig a bit.

 

[nsx1164]

some pictures can be found here -> http://public.fotki.com/nsx1164/nsx_service/

The timing belt looks pretty good IMO

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by nsx1164:
some pictures can be found here -> http://public.fotki.com/nsx1164/nsx_service/

The timing belt looks pretty good IMO

Yup, that's the way I remember them, except mine weren't nearly as pretty.

It's hard to tell even in that excellent close-up what the origin is of those "runs". It may have gotten hot once and melted that way, or it may have been poured sloppy as is the case with the rest of it. Either way, if the unit was working properly then at most I would have trimmed the stuff back off the one sensor.

I'm interested to see what Honda/Acura says, if I can get an honest response from them. Perhaps they've had a bunch replaced simply because the black gunk flowed over a contact and kept it from working, when one swipe with a pocketknife would have fixed it.

Well, that is definitively the "state of the so-called art" of auto repair (and many other things.) Fixing something means that you keep bolting on new parts until the problem goes away and then tally up the bill.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by nsx1164:
I had a long chat with John V (Service Manager at Brookfield) and he confirmed that these are legitimately plausible.

John knows best.

Sounds to me like the folks at the dealer in FL know their stuff too...

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
John knows best.

Sounds to me like the folks at the dealer in FL know their stuff too...

Like it or not, even nice guys who play it straight themselves will often balk at the idea of second-guessing a colleague, much less calling into question their honesty. That's not limited to cops & docs.

30k miles and 96+ months. No symptoms. Nobody on this forum (with multiples of those miles) has chimed in that they had a confirmed failure. A solid-state non-wear item. Not likely. I'm not inclined to bet on things over which I have no control, but this one would be very tempting.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by sjs:
Like it or not, even nice guys who play it straight themselves will often balk at the idea of second-guessing a colleague, much less calling into question their honesty. That's not limited to cops & docs.

I don't disagree that what you say may often be true.

However, I know John V and I can assure you that he would not be afraid to speak his mind (at least in private). I don't believe that your description would apply to him.