2nd gen NSX??? Ferrari did it. 458 Italia.

[Honcho]

I think a $60k HSC is possible using off-the shelf technology. The largest expense for the NSX was the R&D cost. Because the HSC chassis is derived from the NSX, a lot of that cost is saved. Honda already has the alloy process worked out, so re-starting the foundries shouldn't be too much of a hit. The powertrain has already been worked out too. There are many J series variants ready to go in a transverse mount. Plus, the NSX 6-speed transaxle is pretty much perfect and can be re-used with maybe some small tweaks to get it to mate to a J engine. As for the interior, that is usually not an area that kills the cost. I can think of three areas that would jeoparize the cost however:

1. New USDM crash certification. This is where new body/alloy R&D $ would kick in. Could be really expensive.

2. Incorporating SH-AWD. It adds weight, cost and complexity, especially in a Mid-Rear configuration. Not necessary IMO, but we know Acura considers it to be the "flagship" powertrain. Marketing would dictate it must go on a new NSX.

3. Incorporating a true F1-style sequential transmission. Super expensive, as Honda never made one for passenger cars. Maybe they could save $ by adapting the unit from the aborted V10 car, but even adapting it to fit a NSX would probably be big bucks.

I think the above three issues are solvable, but Honda needs the will do do so. They don't have it right now. I don't think a new NSX needs to be a trendsetter like the old one. If it does what all Acuras do - euro performance and luxury plus more reliability for less money - it will sell decent numbers, especially in a tougher economy.

First off, I doubt Honda can achieved $60K for HSC, but that's another discussion.

You nailed it. NSX died after 1991 simply due to the fact that we hit a recession. You also need to point out the first year 9000 units sold, 3/5 of them were sold in Japan. GTR is going have the same fate.

No one in their right mind will produce a car that will cost over $100k unless that's the business they're in. There is a good reason why companies such as Astin Martin, Lambo, Lotus, etc always hit the wall and seeking buyers during the recession.

The truth is, NSX set the bench mark during a time when auto industry were making sloppy cars, but it's not the case any more, you can't achieve new bench mark even if Honda create a car that cost $150 -$200K. It's been done and it is completely pointless to simply be another purchase option.

 

[effer]

Lightguy, Effer, did you buy your NSX new?

Always the same worn down line. I did not buy it new*, but when I bought it, I was not as wealthy as I am now, and what really matters is what I can do now.

Now I could even afford a brand new 458 Italia ...

Therefore, this question is IMVHO irrelevant and only shows a will of trying to discredit our opinion, so, please, read again the previous sentence ...

*my NSX was virtually new and I paid over 85% of its sticker price.

So let me get this clear… We are in a massive economic slump; therefore, the sales of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc are suffering. These manufactures are sports/luxury car “only” manufactures; therefore, they have no choice but to built high performance sports car.

True, but as you pointed it out, this is not Honda's game and we expect them to offer better cars at lower prices.

... but somehow, Honda owes you guys a super car which in my opinion, you guys will never buy it new?

This is intellectually dishonest. You seem to know us better than ourselves and worse, you lend us false intentions ... I would buy a brand new NSX2 if Honda could bring a car as gorgeous, as revolutionary and as efficient as the original NSX because this car, when introduced, was a fantastic bargain and worth every penny ...

How many people praised the R8 and GTR and cried about Honda’s lack of commitment since 2003, and how many of those NSX owners slash R8/GTR admires bought one those cars.

I am not interested to buy these cars. I certainly prefer the R8 but I hate the actual trend of designing bulky sport car. I could live with a R8 ... as a daily driver.
About the Nissan GTR, read below!!!

Rumor through the grapevine, from close friend of my who is working at Nissan Corp is that they might thinking about axe the GTR next year since they can’t find any buyers to satisfied the production line.

Great news! The GTR is a f...ing BUTT UGLY car. I do not give a s..t how quick it is, this car is so fugly and I would be ashamed to sit in. Honestly I would prefer to drive an old slow Ferrari 308 ( euro carburated fiberglass though !!! ) than a GTR.

I prefer to be nice* than quick, of course, being both would be perfect!!!

*sounding and looking, ...

Ferrari dealership is most likely to demand $350k for the 458 and you want Honda to produce a 458 fighter? Even if Honda is going for it and keep the price at $150k, how many do you think they will sell?

$350k is a bit optimistic! Base price around 176k Euro ...

Honda can produce such a car at a significantly lower price. GM proved that it was possible to produce a very quick car with big hp numbers at a relatively cheap sticker price. Honda can do a lot better than GM.

A S2000 is not very far of an NSX in terms of pure performance. Imagine what Honda could do today with a car with a price tag of twice the
S2000.

My take:

2900 lbs
3,8L to 4,2 L drivetrain @ 140 hp/L, redlining @ 10 000 rpm
7 speed gearbox
composite and Al body
etc.

price: 100 000usd to 120 000usd.


Vancehu, this is where, I think, we mostly disagree. I believe it is possible for Honda to build such a car at this price, while you do not.

I believe they could sell many, as long as they keep up with the competition, while you do not.

I also believe in the Halo car strategy, a strategy which, by itself, removes some pressure and importance on the sales volume aspect.

Calling me intellectually dishonest? That’s great one. Drink too much coffee? Not so since I only drink Cuban coffee and they don’t come by too often. I like to know what kind of koolaid you two drinking!

Yes you do! Stop lending us false statements/opinions and rearranging many facts to your convenience!!!

I'd buy you beer anyway!!! No offense here! Just internet conversation.

Have you tried Nespresso? I am not a big coffee enthousiast but I greatly appreciate the kind of old KoolAid coming from Pomerol, St-Émilion, Pauillac, Bourgogne, Châteauneuf du Pape, Ribera del Duero, Rioja, ...

The 1990's tech stock bubble busted, we no longer have rich nerds/geeks.

The housing rush of this decade ended, which witnessed most homeowners trying to find ways to save their property. No more second equity to buy a nice car.. Duh...

2010 plus, we’ll get tax to death by our current supreme leader Mr. O!

Happiness at the misfortune of others! There will be buyers anytime ... not necessarily the same as those of yesterday ...

Yes, Honda is going to build you a toy because you said so.

Absolutely!!! If Honda brings a true midengine exotic sport car looking as gorgeous as the first NSX, performing better or on par with the 458 Italia and priced around 110 000usd, it will be a winner, especially in this difficult economy where customers appreciate to get the most of their hard earned money!!!

I wonder Soichiro Honda would rather built a car few will buy while watching his employees suffer. The Soichiro spirit is not about manufacturing super cars, but create cars that can fulfill people's driving spirit while saving the planet.

You seem not know Soichiro spirit very well. He was a racing enthousiast, giving every product a flavor of an admirable blend of performance and efficiency.

There is nothing like proposing thrilling and inspiring projects. Just take a look at the BMW Vision Efficient Dynamics. Honda is all about efficiency and it does not exclude performance.

Honda should do something thrilling and inspiring, perhaps a new NSX !!!

Than again, not all of us get to be in that position, or even a business owner. It is easy to criticize some one when you two have absolutely no clue about how the real world operates.

Again, you seem to know us better than ourselves ...

Honda was never a super car manufacture until they want to make a statement with the NSX – That was done during the golden era of the 1980’s. They created a masterpiece but the sales fell way short of the expectation. Before the NSX, you had Honda Prelude - That’s it!!! There will never be another NSX. Go buy a Ferrari!

I do not consider the NSX as a failure. Honda created an icon which now shines so much by its absence. The NSX, IMVHO, greatly helped Honda to sell every other products they build. Sure, they invested a lot of money, but they should not have forgotten that it is only the first step which costs, hence, they should have continued the NSX concept, and more it should have permitted Honda to manufacture more NSX derived products ...

Effer, how does your Ferrari compare to your NSX? Sounds like you were ready to upgrade your NSX and with nothing in the Honda pipeline, you move on to Ferrari.

Oh! I only bought a Mondial 3,2 coupé !!! What can I say? I like this unique car very much! I am crazy about rear midengine exotic cars. The Mondial is a very interesting concept and I have always loved it!

I was looking for an Euro 3,2 Coupé Red/Tan and luckily I found a nice one in the West Island of Montréal!!!

A 2+2 rmd was missing in my stable.

I also want a Diablo ( early 2wd or SE30 ) and I am now actively searching ...

Except for the Ferrari 458 Italia, the Lotus Evora and the Mc Laren MP4-12, I do not like what I see on the car market now ... There is some serious lack of passion out there!

Actually it is a good time to buy ...


Cheers!

 

[effer]

BTW, here is a picture of my Mondial! I put 18 inches Forgeline wheels ...

 

[nsxsupra]

From a car enthusiast stand point, who wouldn't want or not get excited about a cool new super car from Honda or any other car makers? An attractive car that people want helps the image of a car company a lot and good for all Honda fans. I doubt Nissan made the GT-R for profit, it is more of a halo car to boost brand image and show that they can do it. The same applies to NSX.

To me the Honda today is in junk status with what they have to offer right now, they are killing US Acura dealers. Hyundai IMO has more attractive cars.

Its human nature, we want good sex, we like hot chicks, we like cool cars.

For every used NSX, someone did bought it new at one time or another.

L
How many people praised the R8 and GTR and cried about Honda’s lack of commitment since 2003, and how many of those NSX owners slash R8/GTR admires bought one those cars.

Vance,

I am only commenting in this thread because I thought your post has a really good overall point. Unfortunately execution of the post definitely did not sound very classy and sounded mean. We all know you are really nice person in real life. I am pretty sure you did not mean it that way, but from 3rd person perspective it "sounded" like an ass. Just true honest opinion, I doubt any one of your friends other than me got balls to be honest with you:biggrin:.

Your made a good point about buying used is not supporting Honda. However, even if majority of NSX owners waited 10 years to buy a used NSX. Every single one of those used NSX were once bought new off show room. I know it seems like everyone who bitch about not Honda not making new NSX will probably end up buying used anyway. However, someone will buy new. If Honda can make something cool again, almost everything they make now is pretty bad taste. Nearly 100% of your NSX and S2K friends all got their cars used, most of them are young, doesn't mean they will not have capacity to buy new if Honda actually make something attractive like they used to again.

One does not need to own a car to appreciate or be enthusiastic.

Lets put it this way, you like F40, why aren't you buying one? People who praise a GT-R or R8 and have not bought one, have same reasons as you or other obvious reasons such as: can't afford one, felt it is overpriced, better choices out there, don't mind waiting or not in a hurry, etc.

Cars are not free and money don't money don't grow on tree for most people. Also there are a lot of alternative choices at price range of brand new R8 and GT-R. Used Ferraries, new M3s, ISF, 996TT, etc.

We are having a opportunity of life time right now due to bad economy in my opinion. It is a common sense to sell when time is good, buy when time is bad. Doesn't get easier than that. Allocating revenue generating working capital for toys at time like this is IMO as dumb as it gets unless someone just got such an overwhelming amount of working capital. Remember your bet with Simo two years ago about housing when time was good, I was the witness, Simo basically call the down run perfectly and won the bet without claiming his prize. Now time is bad, I suggest bet against consensus.

There are people who will only spend $1 for every $10 they make. That is just the way it is. Everyone is different, some will go for short term pleasure at cost of long term pain, while others are willing to endure short term pain for long term pleasure.

 

[2slow2speed]

A couple more views of the 458, rumors say that it will start around €162,900.

 

[BD]

One does not need to own a car to appreciate or be enthusiastic.

Lets put it this way, you like F40, why aren't you buying one? People who praise a GT-R or R8 and have not bought one, have same reasons as you or other obvious reasons such as: can't afford one, felt it is overpriced, better choices out there, don't mind waiting or not in a hurry, etc.

Again, you're missing the point. I love the F40 but I never demand or bitch about Ferrari not producing any thing like it. Simply put, if their entry level car are all spoken for before even being produced, they manufactures has the control, not consumer; therefore, no reason to complaint. Also as you said, one does not need to own a car to appreciate or be enthusiastic, but one shouldn't be bitch and moaning about something that is not going to happen, for now. Honda is in the business of making money, they're probably not going to produce something simply to seek appreciation.

If Honda think there is a market for such a car, they will make it. Obviously, two or three people, or perhaps the entire current NSXPRIME forum members complaint is not enough to convince Honda to do some thing. They need to start from the basic again. Create a S2k replacement, beef up the Civic or some thing in that range, bring back the passion, rebuild reputation as a performance car instead of a value car manufacture, then we have some thing to talk about.

 

[96cxt]

Again, you're missing the point. I love the F40 but I never demand or bitch about Ferrari not producing any thing like it. .

I am pretty sure there apeople out there that a bitching about this, you just dont hear it. You will never satisfy everyone.

Just my thoughts....
Being a business man, its all about taking risks. Some time you win and sometimes you win! I say this because either way it goes, either you have earned or learned from it. The NSX was the first Honda car to come with the VTEC motor (if i'm correct) sure the R&D was expensive but it has paid for itself in the long run as VTEC is in almost all the Honda cars of today. I have an old magazine in which a real s2000 was shown back in 1994-6 and didnt go into production til 5 to 7 years later.
Line Honcho said, a cheaper car is possible with off the shelf parts to lower the cost, this is very true. Building any car, the manufacture has to do R&D so thats a given, so why not do it for the NSX? There isn't much changes in how a car is set-up, the suspension concept is the same, the engine concept is the same.....the basic layout of a car is the same, so all they have to do is figue out what powerplant to use, what weight to keep the car under, and the exterior design, oh and keep the price tag at $70-90k.:biggrin:

People who buy new Ferraris will always buy Ferraris, so you will never take their clients because they have a status to keep.

I think Honda will make a come back with a supercar, its just waiting for the right time or new innovation to be figured out.

 

[96cxt]

This shape would have been a great 2nd gen.

 

[vancouver]

This shape would have been a great 2nd gen.

Is it just me or does the new Ferrari look a lot like an NSX? I think the big boys have taken a page from Honda's play book :tongue:

I have to vote for a 2nd gen NSX as well. The fact that Nissan is still pursuing this calibre of vehicle is proof enough that it can fly :wink:

 

[N Spec]

Is it just me or does the new Ferrari look a lot like an NSX? I think the big boys have taken a page from Honda's play book :tongue:

I have to vote for a 2nd gen NSX as well. The fact that Nissan is still pursuing this calibre of vehicle is proof enough that it can fly :wink:

The shape of the HSC is closer. The NSX shape and 358 are not really that similar at all besides the fact they they are mid-engined. Infact Ferrari has not officially even adopted the black top look for this car I believe, so there goes that constant.

 

[Zanardi 50]

Taken From Autoweek.......

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091105/CARREVIEWS/311059997



Toyota's announcement on Wednesday that the recession had forced it to withdraw from Formula One included the statement that the company “intends to move forward in developing exciting production vehicles, such as the Lexus LFA supercar.”

How ironic.

An hour after Toyota dropped its F1 bomb, Ferrari--the sport's longest-serving and most famous competitor--spent the day flaunting its racing heritage by throwing us the keys to its newest and most advanced road car, the 458 Italia.

Maranello's latest creation boasts more F1 cues and connections than any road-going Ferrari produced, and those connections are evident the moment you pop the latch to the driver's door and climb inside. And we're not talking about the little badge commemorating the 2008 F1 constructors' championship.

If you have seen pictures of the 458's interior, you might have wondered when--and more to the point, why--Ferrari hired Honda's design team. Certainly, the minimalist dashboard is a marked departure from an elegant, analog past. Wrapped in hand-stitched leather, it features an instrument cluster flanked by two air vents that resemble miniature home-entertainment speakers, or perhaps Darth Vader's air inlet. A large tachometer positioned dead ahead is the only three-dimensional gauge; at first glance the entire concept seems ill-conceived and downright gimmicky. That perception grows when you open the door and see a digital screen to the left of the tach displaying “458 Italia,” while another to the right lights up with “Ferrari.” Ahhh yes, the Italian GT-R, then.

But turn the key and push the start button on the switch-laden steering wheel (more on that later). The all-new 4.5-liter V8 bangs to life with a deep boom as the info screens offer an encyclopedia of data at the push of a button (or three). Maybe this makes sense.

The direct-injection engine idles smooth and quiet at 800 rpm, but you are a long, long way from the 9,000-rpm rev limiter. Click the upshift paddle into first gear and step on the throttle. The 458 rocks you back into the seat as the tach slams to the redline before you realize it is time to shift again. And again. And again.

Ferrari would not allow instrumented testing this time around, but its claim of 0 to 62 mph in less than 3.4 seconds does not appear inflated. Neither does its almost unbelievable suggestion that this seven-speed, dual-clutch gearbox (seen first on the 599 GTB Fiorano) needs just 0.04 second to swap ratios that are specific to this car. In reality, the time required is only what it takes for the computer to tell the transmission to engage the next gear, since the dual-clutch layout means that the gear is preselected and ready to transfer drive power. Of which there is plenty.


A picture of Video displays flank both sides of the central tachometer in the gauge cluster. Video displays flank both sides of the central tachometer in the gauge cluster.

The Italia--so named because company boss Luca di Montezemolo said so--is the most powerful and highest-revving V8-powered production car in company history, with 562 hp (a mind-numbing, normally aspirated record of 125 hp per liter) at 9,000 rpm and 398 lb-ft of torque (89 per liter) at 6,000 rpm, with more than 80 percent of that torque available from 3,250 rpm. Engineers worked to reduce the 90-degree, dry-sump V8's internal friction (12.5:1 compression ratio) and used techniques learned in F1, such as the use of a “diamondlike carbon” valve tappet coating to do so, as well as applying antifriction treatments to the piston skirts and camshafts, while also reducing the piston-ring thickness.

The exhaust note is typical Ferrari magic, taking on a race-car-like pitch past 4,000 rpm and simply growing louder as the revs climb. Power and torque come on immediately, and there is no sense of falloff all the way to redline. The biggest challenge in managing it all is timing your shifts properly so that the engine does not bounce off the rev limiter, since the V8 makes its maximum power right at rev limit. But the gearbox's speed and precision, along with the accompanying crackles, pops and rev-matching blips for downshifts, make this the first time this writer has felt even a twinge of belief that such paddle-shifted transmissions are as entertaining as their stick-and-clutch counterparts. The bad news for buyers: Ferrari will not offer any other gearbox when the car goes in sale in the Unites States next June, so there is no choice regardless of personal preference.

On twisting streets and mountain roads, the 458 Italia defines “point and squirt.” Or more like “point and blast.” If the new-age instruments seem video game-like, that's appropriate because at times, the entire car feels like a virtual machine ported into the real world. The wheelbase is 1.9 inches longer than the outgoing F430's, for increased stability, and the chassis slices into bends with a nice, neutral balance before the front end gives up when pushed too far. Carbon-ceramic brakes are as strong as any on the planet, and even better, the brake pedal is set up like a race car's: rock solid with little travel, never imparting any sense of fade. Steering is well-weighted with no perceptible dead zone. This combination allows you to brake hard into corners with confidence, turn in and go. It helps that the magnetically controlled suspension--a Delphi-sourced technology also used by General Motors, notably on the Chevrolet Corvette--exhibits as little dive, roll and squat as you could reasonably, or even unreasonably, expect. And if you don't like the car's behavior, the “Manettino” is at your fingertips.

The little red switch on the bottom right of the steering wheel controls the car's dynamic mode, with five different options: Low Grip, Sport, Race, CT (traction control) Off, and CST (traction and stability control) Off. Depending on which dynamic mode you select, the settings for traction control, stability control, ABS, shift logic, suspension and the E-Differential are affected.


A picture of The 4.5-liter V8 in the Ferrari 458 Italia is the most powerful V8 ever in a Ferrari production car. The 4.5-liter V8 in the Ferrari 458 Italia is the most powerful V8 ever in a Ferrari production car.

The diff and traction control settings intrigue the most, and again you appreciate the F1 inspiration. The E-Diff's mission is to vary its lockup and distribute torque to the rear wheels throughout the three phases of cornering, and it works. In Race mode, you push the car to its traction limit without ever feeling as though you are near it. The beauty of Ferrari's systems, unlike most others, is that they feel almost entirely unobtrusive on the street and are generally unobtrusive on the track. Powering through mountain curves, the traction control light flickers constantly to let you know it is working, yet you do not feel it doing so. There are none of the abrupt power cuts that blight most such systems; instead, you come out of corners starting to believe you could hang with Michael Schumacher. You feel so to a slightly lesser degree on the racetrack.

Given a few laps of Ferrari's Fiorano test track, the power goes away while attempting to apply throttle too soon. But switch the Manettino to TC Off, and the computer allows you relatively large slides before the stability control reins you back in line, literally.

Other F1-inspired technology includes thousands of hours of wind-tunnel time that drop the drag coefficient from 0.34 to 0.33 (compared with the outgoing F430). The car's various ducts and bodywork--note the absence of gaudy wings--produce 724 pounds of downforce at the 202-mph top speed, more downforce than the Enzo supercar sans its wing, according to Ferrari. Aluminum alloy used in the aeronautics field increase the chassis' stiffness significantly. Launch control is included too, though “control” is a bit deceiving. Push the “Launch” button, hold the brake and stomp the gas. Revs climb to 3,000 before you release the brake and go. However, at that point, your right foot controls everything, and mashing it to the floor smokes the tires until the engine hits the limiter; you still need to have some skill to achieve ultimate acceleration times.

Still, all of this adds up to an Exocet missile almost anyone can drive, and drive hard. Even with the transmission set to automatic in the comfort-oriented Sport mode, the gearbox rips downshifts with aplomb. Leave it in automatic (heresy, yes) and switch to Race or higher, and though you might find it hard to swallow, the 458 Italia is damn fun to drive. The transmission grabs gears hard and fast, up and down, and keeps the engine smack in its power band at all times; it feels no different compared with shifting yourself, except for the feel of the paddles on your finger tips. As you soon find yourself fiddling with the various data displays, checking various pressures and temperatures, while also operating the turn signals and window wipers direct from the steering wheel, a thought occurs: This must be what it's like to drive an F1 car.

It's not. Far from it. But Ferrari has created a high-performance experience that does not feel at all contrived. With performance to match, the 458 Italia has set a new target for future mid-engine, V8-powered exotics.

2010 Ferrari 458 Italia

PRICE: $220,000 (est)

DRIVETRAIN: 4.5-liter V8; RWD, seven-speed dual-clutch sequential manual

OUTPUT: 562 hp @ 9,000 rpm, 398 lb-ft @ 6,000 rpm

0-62 MPH: 3.4 sec. (mfr)

CURB WEIGHT: 3,300 lb

FUEL ECONOMY: 17.7 mpg (est based on European model)



Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091105/CARREVIEWS/311059997#ixzz0WElPHaUZ

 

[ChitownNSX]

Many of us can remember in the late 80's when we saw cars like the Mitsubishi HSR concept as well as the Nissan Mid 4 concept. Both of these cars looked much like our Current NSX design.

Most of the Japanese car companies were going the same direction, much like car companies are now.

Honda needs to do to what they can to survive in today's economy. But I don't understand how hard it would be to use current power plants and drive lines from say the TL type S car to build and updated sports car?

A new frame and interior for the mid engine design. Share suspension, drive line, brakes, heck even most of the electronics would be fine. All of their other cars all share that stuff and look the same to boot.. Then massage the motor to give us 300-400 hp and it would be a fantastic car. They could produce a fantastic car for a bit more than the price of a TL. So many companies try to break the mold with cars like the NSX and many of us are not asking for them to break the mold, only to build upon the current design. Do you really want a car like the Ferrari with the headaches and the cost. The way technology is, they should be able to produce a successor to the NSX for around 60k-70k. Hell, Look at GM parts bin with the Vette.

Ok so after all of that. The point is, Honda always has made a fantastic car. It would be nice to have a world beater of Japanese exotica, but it is not necessary. If they produced something that keeps up with a current M3 and looks 10x better in design that sold for 60k im sure buyers would line up! Most of us purchased the NSX as a drivers car anyway, Not something that is so far out there as to compete with the likes of 150k cars.